Notices
RX-8 Racing Want to discuss autocrossing, road-racing and drag racing the RX-8? Bring it here. This is NOT a kills/street racing forum.

Alignment settings for street/track use

Old 11-07-2017, 08:28 PM
  #576  
Koi no Ousama
iTrader: (25)
 
TeamRX8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 20,560
Likes: 0
Liked 282 Times in 232 Posts
So my camber gauge was indicating -4 deg front camber @ 13.5 fender ride height last night so obviously some room for adjustment
TeamRX8 is offline  
Old 11-08-2017, 07:30 AM
  #577  
Water Foul
 
Steve Dallas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 2,246
Liked 157 Times in 126 Posts
Yeah. I asked MER for -3.5 in the front. They told me at least -4 was possible.
Steve Dallas is offline  
Old 11-08-2017, 07:39 AM
  #578  
Registered
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Hayward, Ca
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by TeamRX8 View Post
So my camber gauge was indicating -4 deg front camber @ 13.5 fender ride height last night so obviously some room for adjustment
What gauge are you using if you don't mind me asking. I've had a couple that gave very inconsistent results
Teetsdownlow is offline  
Old 11-08-2017, 07:49 AM
  #579  
Registered
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Hayward, Ca
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Never mind I read through a thread that Kenneth posted some years back. I think I found out what you use
Teetsdownlow is offline  
Old 11-08-2017, 09:18 AM
  #580  
Koi no Ousama
iTrader: (25)
 
TeamRX8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 20,560
Likes: 0
Liked 282 Times in 232 Posts
Its a smart camber tripod type and the car is on jackstands too so it could be off some just for that. It was pretty obvious just looking at it though. Was wondering if I needed to swap out my delrin UCA camber bushings for a non-camber set. Thats the only reason I checked it. The ride height affects it a lot due to camber gain. If I wanted to go super low then itd need to be reduced for sure.
TeamRX8 is offline  
Old 11-27-2017, 02:26 PM
  #581  
Registered
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
So ive read through the last 5 pages 4 times now and english is not my first language so im sure im missing the answer
But basicly does thes bushings fit directly on a 2005 spindle and arms og does it need modifications?

Originally Posted by TeamRX8 View Post


These aren't LCA bushings. They're metal offset bushings that replace the lower metal OE NC upright insert bushing where the LCA ball joint attaches to it. I'm not at the shop and can't recall if the RX8 front upright has the same ball joint attachment bushing or not. I know the rear uprights have bushings. Remains to be seen if they can be used or not.








.
sa22rally is offline  
Old 11-27-2017, 03:43 PM
  #582  
Koi no Ousama
iTrader: (25)
 
TeamRX8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 20,560
Likes: 0
Liked 282 Times in 232 Posts
No, you will either need to bore out the hole in the knuckle or machine the bushing down for any RX8 knuckle up through mid-2009. It would be easier to machine the bushing than the try to mount up the knuckle in perfect alignment to bore out the mounting hole. The tie-rod taper is slso not correct for either the NC or RX8, but apparently people have installed them that way. In some classes that might not be allowed since it technically changes the tie-rod geometry position. So in that case you need to ream those too using a 10 deg ball joint taper reamer.
TeamRX8 is offline  
Old 11-28-2017, 01:46 PM
  #583  
Registered
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thabks is there anywhere to purchase except from mazdaspeed since they do not ship to Denmark.
im in the process of making an alloy rear bushing with spherical bearing for the front lower control arm. With some offset this should give me some more caster however I still need about 3,5 degrees of static camber and that is not possible with the caster goal and my ridehight

Originally Posted by TeamRX8 View Post
No, you will either need to bore out the hole in the knuckle or machine the bushing down for any RX8 knuckle up through mid-2009. It would be easier to machine the bushing than the try to mount up the knuckle in perfect alignment to bore out the mounting hole. The tie-rod taper is slso not correct for either the NC or RX8, but apparently people have installed them that way. In some classes that might not be allowed since it technically changes the tie-rod geometry position. So in that case you need to ream those too using a 10 deg ball joint taper reamer.
sa22rally is offline  
Old 11-29-2017, 02:49 AM
  #584  
Koi no Ousama
iTrader: (25)
 
TeamRX8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 20,560
Likes: 0
Liked 282 Times in 232 Posts
Well you could just pop a bushing out of your existing knuckle to get the dimensions, figure out how much offset you can get out of it, and machine your own set. I removed and installed them using a hammer rather than a press. Anyone with decent experience and mechanical sense should be able to it. Otherwise since it is a Motorsport part rather than a factory part it can be purchased and shipped to you by someone else without violating their agreement policy (people in the USA can buy competition parts only without being a member). There’s not any reason I can’t get you a set though and just send them using international postal service. LMK.
TeamRX8 is offline  
Old 01-04-2018, 09:01 AM
  #585  
Registered
 
DangerDanJD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Front: Height Camber -2, Caster 7, 1/32 total toe in.
Rear: Camber -1.5, 1/16 total toe in.

This is in my LFX swapped series 1. It is a set up as mild HPDE build that sees more street miles. Ride height is currently a littler higher than I would like at 14", but the oilpan on the LFX sits about an inche lower than the Renesis so I needed the extra space. I will likely drop ride height when I get aluminum undertray and skids setup. Currently on faily soft Tien Basis coilovers with Federal 595RSRs 255 squared.

Last edited by DangerDanJD; 01-04-2018 at 09:04 AM.
DangerDanJD is offline  
Old 07-28-2018, 02:15 PM
  #586  
Water Foul
 
Steve Dallas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 2,246
Liked 157 Times in 126 Posts
It appears I did not achieve as much camber as I originally thought. I took the car to Growler Motor Labs (formerly Cobb Tuning) in Plano for its yearly alignment. They have a Hunter Hawkeye system. This is the best they could get:



Being that the car was on its stock wheels during the alignment, and my track wheels are about 1/4" smaller in diameter, I should have a little more static camber on the track. This should be enough, and it's still a hell of a lot better than what I was getting before, just not the "up to 4 degrees" MER told me was available.

.

Last edited by Steve Dallas; 07-28-2018 at 06:32 PM.
Steve Dallas is offline  
Old 12-04-2018, 05:58 AM
  #587  
Registered
 
hufflepuff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Mid Atlantic
Posts: 392
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by hufflepuff View Post
So my latest settings are based on consideration of lots of feedback from the folks here on the forums and other folks at the track.

FRONT
13.5" ride height
-2.7 camber
Maximum caster
Zero toe

REAR
13.75" ride height
-2.3 camber
+1/16" total toe (1/32" per side)

Pyronometer indicates these are good settings for non-cheater street tires, but Hoosiers may need a smidge more camber (-3.0 / -2.5 ?). I like the balance of the car with that camber stagger and stock sways and 10k/7k springs. Very neutral.
So, after a bunch more seat time this season, i need to update the above. I have never run truly sticky tires on my RX8. The car was also too loose. I eventually disconnected the rear bar but it is still too loose. My plans for 2019 are as follows (similar to Steve Dallas):

Fortune Auto 500s, 10k/7k springs, Hotchkis MX5 front bar, no rear bar, 255/40/17 RE71Rs on 17x9

FRONT
13.5" ride height (or lower, if i need more camber?)
-3.5 camber (or more, depending on tire temperatures and wear.)
Maximum caster
Zero toe (may toe out a few flats per side at autocross)

REAR
13.5" ride height
-3.0 camber (or more, depending on tire temperatures and wear. If the car is too loose but tire temperatures are okay, i'll adjust the roll stiffness instead)
+1/16" total toe (1/32" per side)

But i plan to get a pyronometer and actually try to dial in a good setup... i have traditionally just gotten it close enough and focused on driving. I am thinking this setup may still be a bit loose for autocross, so i may also bump the front spring rate and/or drop the rear spring rate. Some of the STX guys were running 11k/7k or even 11k/6k springs, with likely a larger front bar than mine but also the stock rear bar)

hufflepuff is offline  
Old 03-13-2019, 02:11 AM
  #588  
Registered
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Next week i'll be going for a alignment again. Still havent found my sweet spot although every time I feel I'm getting closer.
​​​​​​My local track is a 2.6km (~1.5mile) with some tight low speed corners were apex speeds are between 35-40mph. One specific turn is a decreasing radius where even late apex will result to power push up front. Feels like weight problem but trying to achieve best alignment for my driving before modifying another area.
I'll try to convert to US settings to hear some opinions:
Front camber 2.15, caster 6.3, toe in 0.025in/per wheel.
Rear camber 1.75, toe in 0.035in/per wheel.
Car feels nice on high speeds. Trail braking gives slight rotation, mid corner all good but as soon as a
I touch gas car pushes on exit. This happens on low spees sweepers. Tires are 80tw 225/40r18, full damping on rear shocks, 2clicks lower on the front.
BillyGR is online now  
Old 03-14-2019, 11:13 AM
  #589  
Water Foul
 
Steve Dallas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 2,246
Liked 157 Times in 126 Posts
Originally Posted by BillyGR View Post
Next week i'll be going for a alignment again. Still havent found my sweet spot although every time I feel I'm getting closer.
​​​​​​My local track is a 2.6km (~1.5mile) with some tight low speed corners were apex speeds are between 35-40mph. One specific turn is a decreasing radius where even late apex will result to power push up front. Feels like weight problem but trying to achieve best alignment for my driving before modifying another area.
I'll try to convert to US settings to hear some opinions:
Front camber 2.15, caster 6.3, toe in 0.025in/per wheel.
Rear camber 1.75, toe in 0.035in/per wheel.
Car feels nice on high speeds. Trail braking gives slight rotation, mid corner all good but as soon as a
I touch gas car pushes on exit. This happens on low spees sweepers. Tires are 80tw 225/40r18, full damping on rear shocks, 2clicks lower on the front.
When you say full damping on rear shocks, what do you mean? Actual damping or rebound?

If you mean rebound, there is a specific way to set it properly both front and rear. It is not typically used as a handling adjustment. Google the Penske shock owner's manual for instructions on how to set damping and rebound correctly.

Why toe-in on the front? The front is normally run straight, or with very slight toe-out to aid with turn-in under certain (rare) conditions.

The "proper" purpose of trail braking is to hold weight on the front tires to aid turn-in. It is a common misconception that trail braking is used to rotate the car by bringing the rear around.

I would max out front -camber and run more -camber in the rear as well, after glancing at your specs, but the only way to know how much negative camber you actually need, is to use a tire pyrometer and observe tire wear.

In any case, to help you with a diagnosis, we need to know everything about your setup: spring rates, shocks, sway bars, etc.

Last edited by Steve Dallas; 03-17-2019 at 10:38 AM.
Steve Dallas is offline  
Old 03-15-2019, 10:59 AM
  #590  
Registered
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 662
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Everything Steve says above is good.
A few additional thoughts:
What actual tires are you running? 80tw implies r-compound. Is that a correct assumption? My experience with 200tw (agressive street) or 100 and 40tw (competition) tires is that more camber is better even with a track tuned suspension (stiffer than typical street coilovers). Max out the front. Add more at the rear. This is with 255/40/17 on 17x9 wheels though.
How is your tire wear, and what do tire temps look like?
What springs are you running?

Originally Posted by BillyGR View Post
Car feels nice on high speeds. Trail braking gives slight rotation, mid corner all good but as soon as a
I touch gas car pushes on exit. This happens on low spees sweepers. Tires are 80tw 225/40r18, full damping on rear shocks, 2clicks lower on the front.
If the car feels good at high speed, but understeers at low speed, this implies one of two things:
1. You can go faster in the high speed turns. This is easier said than done :-)
2. The aero effects at high speed are balancing out the low speed understeer. This is quite normal for street cars.

Do you have any kind of spoiler? If not, you might want to consider adding one. I originally tracked an s2 sport with a small factory spoiler. Moved to an s1 with no spoiler and noticed it was comparatively unstable at speed. Added an ebay spoiler and it really helped. Try that and then I expect you will be able to get a better overall balance with stiffer rear springs, or a stiffer rear bar.

Be warned, aero is a slippery slope. Pretty soon after my ebay spoiler I had a full wing and front splitter :-D

Putting this all together I would: zero the front toe, add more camber front and rear (depending on existing wear or tire temps), add a small spoiler. Test. Stiffen the rear as needed with a sway bar or springs.
Alternatively, leave the alignment where it is. Add a spoiler, and go from there ;-)

Last edited by blu3dragon; 03-15-2019 at 11:01 AM.
blu3dragon is offline  
Old 03-24-2019, 11:49 PM
  #591  
Registered
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Firstly let me say thank you Blu3dragon and Steve for replying. I really want to adjust this behavier before modifying something (giving money &#128516

​​​​​​Yesterday I was at the track and lap time is consistent but not improved. Before going I changed my alignment again to the following. The alignment shop measures toe in degrees but I'll convert to inches based on tire size (almost), same thing with 60'=100 of a degree.
Front camber 210, toe in 0, caster 630
Rear camber 170, toe in 0.014in total
18x8 et50 with 225/40r Nankang AR1, front 32psi hot, rear 31psi hot.
Front springs 390lbs, rebound+compression (2/16). Rear springs 280lbs, rebound+compression (0/16).
No power mods, no other modifications, just -105lbs weight.

It feels like on slow speeds the car lifts the front, the rear gets traction and I end up with power understeer. From photos it is also noticable that the inner front tire lifts but the rear is planted.
BillyGR is online now  
Old 03-26-2019, 01:24 PM
  #592  
Registered
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thank you Blu3dragon and Steve for replying.

Did a alignment before going to the track last saturday. Kept camber front 215' and rear 175'. Changed front toe to 0 and rear to almost 0 (total of 0.4mm). Car is on 18x8 et50, Nankang AR1 225/40, both f/r hot 31psi. Suspension Tein FlexZ front springs 7kg, rear 5kg. Front 2/16 adjustment and rear 0/16, these are compression and rebound together but what I feel is mostly rebound adjusting.

Thinking getting stiffer rear springs for a start. I believe these low speed sweepers (low apex speed is 40mph) makes the car squat and keeps weight to the rear
BillyGR is online now  
Old 03-27-2019, 08:42 AM
  #593  
Water Foul
 
Steve Dallas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 2,246
Liked 157 Times in 126 Posts
Several random thoughts:

1. That is a lot of tire for your spring rates. 13K / 8K would be more appropriate at the upper end for an 80TW tire. I run 8K / 5K with a 200TW tire. I would not increase the rear only. Adjust the front to keep the front-to-rear ratio close to 1.5. Should you increase your spring rates, take the opportunity to upgrade your shocks as well. Tein is not exactly known to make high performance track shocks.

2. If I read your rebound settings correctly, you are running almost full soft? If so, that will be a problem for you, because the purpose of rebound is to keep the spring from the launching the car, once it is compressed. Your lack of rebound is making your car light after the suspension absorbs a bump.

3. If I read your rebound settings incorrectly, and you are running nearly full stiff, that is also a problem. The car may skip around and will almost certainly wheel hop under braking. Those settings need to be correct. Read the attached Penske manual, beginning at page 16, for more information on setting your shocks correctly. If nothing else, set them in the middle front and rear. That is usually pretty close for most off-the-shelf coilovers.

4. What is your ride height, and are you on the bump stops, when it steps out? Hitting the bump stops is upsetting to the balance of the car and should be avoided as much as possible. If you are riding the bump stops, raise the ride height until it almost never happens.

5. Your alignment is about as good as it gets now, without making modifications like the ones Team and I made.

6. Your tire pressures may be too low and probably should not be square. There seems to be near unanimous Internet agreement that lower pressures yield more grip, but the opposite is often true. See below.

Attached Files

Last edited by Steve Dallas; 03-27-2019 at 08:46 AM.
Steve Dallas is offline  
Old 03-27-2019, 10:42 AM
  #594  
Registered
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Appriciate your time Steve,

1. Why should I keep a 1.5 ratio front/rear if the rear is giving me too much grip on slow speeds? Talking to TEIN they say the rear can handle up to 7kg.

2+3 Tein FlexZ adjust both compression and rebound together. When running the front soft the rebound gives too much weight towards the rear. I was surprised when adjusting the front harder it kinda dialed out a bit exit understeer.
If I soften the rear I will be softening and compression which makes it a pig. I dont dare lowering the rear compression.

4 Height front is now 13.4 and rear 13.5 with full tank. Ride height does not affect travel on these shocks. Front has 7mm preload, rear is at 0mm.

5 Front camber is ok, would love 02-03 more but cant. Rear is perfect by tire wear and temperatures.

6 Tire pressures are strictly between 30-32, anything more reduces grip.

Thinking of running 7kg rears and if to much oversteer is induced then dial off with alignment. The only time I get some rotation is if the rear tires reach 35psi but at that stage braking grip goes too hell.

That chart is not so complete. Understeer in corner entry can be fixed with rear toe in yes, but on exit it gives understeer. Theres entry, steady state and exit. My problem is on apex to exit.
Im not adjusting tire pressures by handling. Tire pressures and camber are fixed only by wear and temps for me.

Last edited by BillyGR; 03-27-2019 at 10:47 AM.
BillyGR is online now  
Old 03-27-2019, 12:54 PM
  #595  
Registered
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 662
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Increasing the rear spring rates is a good, perhaps the best, way to dial out understeer.

I would expect 7k/7k is going to push you too far in the other direction though. 7k/6k might be a better place to start.
Or, even better, switch out both springs to go to 9k/7k :-D

FYI I used to have 425 (7.6k) / 375 (6.7k) BUT with an aftermarket front sway bar. That gave me a pretty good balance (slight understeer) on 200TW 255/40/17 tires, although I could still have used more front camber than what you are running (at least -2.8).

I'm on 500 / 450 lbs springs now, still with the aftermarket front sway, but with a rear wing & small splitter and 100TW tires. Without the wing and splitter it was a little loose. The wing has now settled the rear and I think it is stiff enough, but I still need more camber (at least -3 degrees up front).
blu3dragon is offline  
Old 03-29-2019, 02:07 PM
  #596  
Water Foul
 
Steve Dallas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 2,246
Liked 157 Times in 126 Posts
Originally Posted by BillyGR View Post
Appriciate your time Steve,

1. Why should I keep a 1.5 ratio front/rear if the rear is giving me too much grip on slow speeds? Talking to TEIN they say the rear can handle up to 7kg.

2+3 Tein FlexZ adjust both compression and rebound together. When running the front soft the rebound gives too much weight towards the rear. I was surprised when adjusting the front harder it kinda dialed out a bit exit understeer.
If I soften the rear I will be softening and compression which makes it a pig. I dont dare lowering the rear compression.

4 Height front is now 13.4 and rear 13.5 with full tank. Ride height does not affect travel on these shocks. Front has 7mm preload, rear is at 0mm.

5 Front camber is ok, would love 02-03 more but cant. Rear is perfect by tire wear and temperatures.

6 Tire pressures are strictly between 30-32, anything more reduces grip.

Thinking of running 7kg rears and if to much oversteer is induced then dial off with alignment. The only time I get some rotation is if the rear tires reach 35psi but at that stage braking grip goes too hell.

That chart is not so complete. Understeer in corner entry can be fixed with rear toe in yes, but on exit it gives understeer. Theres entry, steady state and exit. My problem is on apex to exit.
Im not adjusting tire pressures by handling. Tire pressures and camber are fixed only by wear and temps for me.
1. Because a ratio between 1.4 and 1.6 is known to be fast. I get that you are pondering increasing the rear rate relative to the front, but the fact still remains your front and rear rates are way too low for an 80TW tire. Get them both in the correct range and adjust from there. You need a lot more spring at both ends, before you start tweaking. My Miata weighs 1,000 Lbs less than my RX-8, and I run 12K / 8K springs with 80TW tires, for example, and that is technically not enough spring.

2. Are you measuring these differences in lap times or going by feel? Fast usually does not feel good. Running too much rebound for the sake of compression is not a good trade-off. And, it is very unlikely that you can run those shocks full stiff and realize good performance. They simply are not made for track purposes, and their compression to rebound ratios are very likely sub-optimal or even weird. Companies like Tein design a range of settings to keep you from crashing on the street, not to make you fast on the track. Seriously consider spending your money on a proper track-oriented setup.

6. You do know that the customary approach to tweaking handling is to set the shocks properly during testing, then use tire pressures to make quick adjustments? Adjusting handling with compression / rebound changes is not really a thing. I set my shocks during the first session of the day (starting at my measured baseline for that track), then use air pressure adjustments from there. The only exception is a drastic change in conditions, but I usually account for that in my morning setup.

Having a front tire lift with your soft springs and stock sway bars is not normal. You have something else going on. Are you certain your preload settings are correct? Is your front sway bar binding?

Last edited by Steve Dallas; 03-30-2019 at 02:23 PM.
Steve Dallas is offline  
Old 03-31-2019, 03:08 PM
  #597  
Registered
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ordered stiffer rear progressive springs and upper control arm offset bushings. I'll be on track May so we just have to wait and see.
BillyGR is online now  
Old 04-04-2019, 07:04 PM
  #598  
Water Foul
 
Steve Dallas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 2,246
Liked 157 Times in 126 Posts
Good tuning info starting at page 14 of the attached.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
Trackside Companion.pdf (554.4 KB, 5 views)
Steve Dallas is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
hufflepuff
Series I Wheels, Tires, Brakes & Suspension
6
05-30-2016 10:45 AM
tbiggybig
RX-8 Discussion
34
10-08-2015 03:08 PM
duworm
Series I Wheels, Tires, Brakes & Suspension
1
10-01-2015 04:57 PM
RAVSPEC
Vendor Classifieds
0
10-01-2015 01:59 PM
jasonrxeight
RX-8's For Sale/Wanted
2
09-30-2015 01:53 PM


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Quick Reply: Alignment settings for street/track use


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.