'08 PAX numbers released
11-17-2007, 01:35 PM
#6
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Sure will be a lot easier to see if CS is outpaxing BS at events!
LOL!
Ya kinda knew FS was going to get it.
CS is right on or beats BS at many events straight time so there you go on that...
CSP had it coming.
New tires coming out in ST classes are not likely to be slower than what is already out there + the Bridgestone speeded up STS2 and STS. Many drivers immediately took a big pax jump when those tires came out.
Pretty easy to defend most of the changes in my head.
FM
LOL!
Ya kinda knew FS was going to get it.
CS is right on or beats BS at many events straight time so there you go on that...
CSP had it coming.
New tires coming out in ST classes are not likely to be slower than what is already out there + the Bridgestone speeded up STS2 and STS. Many drivers immediately took a big pax jump when those tires came out.
Pretty easy to defend most of the changes in my head.
FM
11-17-2007, 01:54 PM
#7
this should be more informative, pax-induced dementia excepted:
http://sccaforums.com/forums/permali...ad.aspx#273874
you have to look at the normalized variance to understand the overall impact for each class
BS has little change overall, the classes above get a harder pax, the classes below get an easier pax
http://sccaforums.com/forums/permali...ad.aspx#273874
you have to look at the normalized variance to understand the overall impact for each class
BS has little change overall, the classes above get a harder pax, the classes below get an easier pax
Last edited by TeamRX8; 11-17-2007 at 01:58 PM.
11-18-2007, 06:01 PM
#8
Row faster, I hear banjos
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BS and FSP are in virtually a dead heat in PAX. Locally Jinx Jordan will be a good person for my co-driver and I to PAX against next season...
11-21-2007, 11:55 AM
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PAX is for kids with slow cars to feel good about themselves. I have driven my bone stock 05 Sport this past summer on the original Potenzas. My competition has been a bone stock 350Z.
I suspect a lot of regional guys have done the same which messes with PAX multipliers used by Mr. Ruth. He says he samples not only Nationals and tours but regional events also.
PAX really represents a full tilt boogey car prepared to the limit of the rules driven by guys like Jason.
Bottom line I think it SUX.
I suspect a lot of regional guys have done the same which messes with PAX multipliers used by Mr. Ruth. He says he samples not only Nationals and tours but regional events also.
PAX really represents a full tilt boogey car prepared to the limit of the rules driven by guys like Jason.
Bottom line I think it SUX.
11-21-2007, 09:52 PM
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What do you care???
If you are a bone stock car out for fun then it doesn't matter; it doesn't mean it sucks. It is a : "Racers Theoretical Performance"
This Index was developed by Rick Ruth and reflects study of results from over 200 nationwide Solo events including, the Tire Rack® Solo National Championships, National Tour, Chicago Region, California Sports Car Club, Great American Solo Series, Houston Region, Midwest Divisional Series, Milwaukee Region, New England Region, Northwest Region, Northern New Jersey Region, Oregon Region, Philadelphia Region, Southeast Divisional Series, San Francisco Region, San Diego Region, South Jersey Region, St. Louis Region, Tri-State Sports Car Council, Texas Region, Wisconsin Autocrossers Inc., and several others.
You model this on a car with an average driver with a few upgrades. Just enjoy your raceing and leave the SUX comments out. Why don't you bash what cheater cars are in what class.
Happy Thanksgiving to all
This Index was developed by Rick Ruth and reflects study of results from over 200 nationwide Solo events including, the Tire Rack® Solo National Championships, National Tour, Chicago Region, California Sports Car Club, Great American Solo Series, Houston Region, Midwest Divisional Series, Milwaukee Region, New England Region, Northwest Region, Northern New Jersey Region, Oregon Region, Philadelphia Region, Southeast Divisional Series, San Francisco Region, San Diego Region, South Jersey Region, St. Louis Region, Tri-State Sports Car Council, Texas Region, Wisconsin Autocrossers Inc., and several others.
You model this on a car with an average driver with a few upgrades. Just enjoy your raceing and leave the SUX comments out. Why don't you bash what cheater cars are in what class.
Happy Thanksgiving to all
12-04-2007, 03:31 PM
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I am a bit perturbed that he changed his screenname to rtp.rick. It was a lot funnier when he had it as rtprick. For a long time, I wondered why somebody with the initials R.T. would refer to himself that way.
Joe_914, to add to the nonsense, I have found that a street tire correction of about -.03 to the nonstreet tire classes does a decent job of adjusting out the assumption of race tires.
This, of course, also SUX at some level and will draw the ire of Team, but I have found it a useful way to judge my performance relative to others in the region who are known to be fast drivers but are running a street tire.
Joe_914, to add to the nonsense, I have found that a street tire correction of about -.03 to the nonstreet tire classes does a decent job of adjusting out the assumption of race tires.
This, of course, also SUX at some level and will draw the ire of Team, but I have found it a useful way to judge my performance relative to others in the region who are known to be fast drivers but are running a street tire.
12-05-2007, 06:04 AM
#14
all that draws my ire is people who have no comprehension of the difference between "theoretical" and "absolute"
the 0.03 street tire difference in particular falls completely apart once factors such as sea level vs high altitude, small engine vs large engine, turbo vs NA, engine output vs wheel size, 2WD vs AWD, etc, come into play. The difference between street tires and race tires is like the difference in a wet surface and a dry surface, where once again the difference in grip consistency is as variable as the factors involved.
I've always believed that the PAX in general could be close enogh for a generalized hand grenade effect within the specific parameters of a given environment. You can never really know for sure how you'll eventually measure up relative to your actual competition any more than you can ever be sure that either you or they performed to their true potential. The reality is the parameters and environment are neither consistent nor stable on a national level. IMO using it to determine Driver of the Year awards and such is a major travesty of our sport.
the 0.03 street tire difference in particular falls completely apart once factors such as sea level vs high altitude, small engine vs large engine, turbo vs NA, engine output vs wheel size, 2WD vs AWD, etc, come into play. The difference between street tires and race tires is like the difference in a wet surface and a dry surface, where once again the difference in grip consistency is as variable as the factors involved.
I've always believed that the PAX in general could be close enogh for a generalized hand grenade effect within the specific parameters of a given environment. You can never really know for sure how you'll eventually measure up relative to your actual competition any more than you can ever be sure that either you or they performed to their true potential. The reality is the parameters and environment are neither consistent nor stable on a national level. IMO using it to determine Driver of the Year awards and such is a major travesty of our sport.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 12-05-2007 at 06:10 AM.
12-06-2007, 08:20 AM
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True enough. Using some type of index in competition to designate a champion is essentially antithetical. They would never do something like that in other sports...take college football for instance. (sarcasm)
What it can provide is a decent guesstimate. In small regions, it allows people a way to relate their performance to other drivers given that individual classes tend to be so small.
What it can provide is a decent guesstimate. In small regions, it allows people a way to relate their performance to other drivers given that individual classes tend to be so small.
12-06-2007, 10:30 AM
#16
the problem is you really don't have much way to determine the relative accuracy, all you can say is that your performance is likely decent or rotten. Review the Nationals PAX numbers and you'll see what I mean. Where Jason falls relative to anyone else at Nats is meaningless. All that matters is that he was cumatively faster than anyone else in BS.
Jason ended up cumatively 2.2 sec off Strano's #1 PAX time, you might say that looks pretty rotten on the surface had they been a few competitors at a local 2 day event if there weren't 1200 other times to review and conclude it wasn't all that bad. The fact that new cars which represent a major inmprovement over the previous class model like the Mustang Shelby in FS aren't accounted for until the 2nd year, and then usually still not fully accounted for until the 3rd or maybe 4th year, only proves one of the many flaws that the PAX has.
Jason ended up cumatively 2.2 sec off Strano's #1 PAX time, you might say that looks pretty rotten on the surface had they been a few competitors at a local 2 day event if there weren't 1200 other times to review and conclude it wasn't all that bad. The fact that new cars which represent a major inmprovement over the previous class model like the Mustang Shelby in FS aren't accounted for until the 2nd year, and then usually still not fully accounted for until the 3rd or maybe 4th year, only proves one of the many flaws that the PAX has.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 12-06-2007 at 10:39 AM.
12-06-2007, 12:33 PM
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Haha! Guess it takes one to know one Mr. fastguyforonlyoneday.
I know the PAX is a good system because for many years, our season championship comes down to the last RUN of the year to determine the winner. Does that happen by "chance" or is the pax system, as a whole, the most accurate thing we got to compare between multiple classes?
When you can have a bunch cars/driver/courses/conditions etc and still be on the same tenth of a second as your competitors after adding 8 events together, I'd say that the system is a good one.
If you want to point out a flaw with it, you can say like Baghead does and say it doesn't react quick enough to see new overdogs in classes. Sure does point them out though!
Much better than just looking a car and comparing it to only other cars in it's class imo.
I rely heavily on how people/cars pax at big events against "known top drivers" versus just looking at how the did in class against people I have never heard of.
ie:A bunch of drivers jump into a certain car when they have a history of not topping the pax charts and suddenly they all are at the top when compared against people that usually are at the top of the charts.
When that happens, you can look and maybe say "incorrectly classed car" or "new overdog in class" or "new class pick".
FM
I know the PAX is a good system because for many years, our season championship comes down to the last RUN of the year to determine the winner. Does that happen by "chance" or is the pax system, as a whole, the most accurate thing we got to compare between multiple classes?
When you can have a bunch cars/driver/courses/conditions etc and still be on the same tenth of a second as your competitors after adding 8 events together, I'd say that the system is a good one.
If you want to point out a flaw with it, you can say like Baghead does and say it doesn't react quick enough to see new overdogs in classes. Sure does point them out though!
Much better than just looking a car and comparing it to only other cars in it's class imo.
I rely heavily on how people/cars pax at big events against "known top drivers" versus just looking at how the did in class against people I have never heard of.
ie:A bunch of drivers jump into a certain car when they have a history of not topping the pax charts and suddenly they all are at the top when compared against people that usually are at the top of the charts.
When that happens, you can look and maybe say "incorrectly classed car" or "new overdog in class" or "new class pick".
FM
12-12-2007, 06:27 AM
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As far as your remark in the previous post -- Using the 2007 Index factors, all but 13 (of the 35) classes were within one second of the top Index time on one course or the other. Using the 2008 factors all but 10 classes would have been represented. I'm sure you'll agree that the surface at HPT might eliminate many of the Prepared and Modified classes. As most everyone knows, slicks don't work very well there. At any rate, these stats make your statement just plain wrong. As I've stated many times before, the Nationals is just one data point, a good one, but still just one.
Again, using the 2008 factors every single Stock, Street Prepared, Street Touring, and Street Modified class would have been within one second of the leader, on one course or the other. I'd say that's pretty much "lined up". :-)
H's & K's,
Rick Ruth
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