ASH8

The old Best Sports Cars are Fast Sports cars...again...boring...like the MX-5..

There is no reason WHY Mazda won't go back to the first series type RX-7...an MX-5 with a rotary..and from what I can tell that is what will happen...you will see a lightweight 2 door from the new ND MX-5 platform with a Rotary Engine...it will be the Current RX-8 rotary engine.

Put a turbo on any rotary and you out-price it..

Mazda's are not made to compete with Porsche...you get what you pay for...simple.

SayNoToPistons

iTrader: (8)

Not that it is a bad idea because it is a great idea, but how much of a success would that be? If the new RX will be similar to the ND Miata but in a coupe with a 13B, wouldn't it somehow go against sales of the ND Miata itself? It almost seems as if it is a ND PRHT with an option of a rotary engine.

ccd

Personally, I'm not crazy about a new RX the size of the Miata. But I checked on the weight and, according to Edmunds, the Miata is a little over 2600 lbs which is where any new RX would need to be with the current S2 engine. You could also save money by sharing parts with the Miata. Then the questions becomes how you differentiate the RX from the Miata, which isn't exactly a slouch in the handling department

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Different body and a significant power increase over the 4 banger Miata is enough of a difference. I mean, the Mazda5 and Mazda3 and CX7 share the same platform. The 6, CX9, and the Fusion share the same platform. The 2 and the Fiesta share the same platform.

Just because the platform is the same doesn't mean that the cars are identical. Alot of stuff you can do differently between them.

SayNoToPistons

iTrader: (8)

True, the RX8 and NC Miata shares a similar platform.

ccd

Well, we will have to wait and see what happens. But if you want further evidence the current RX is toast, there is another thread here that reports 92 RX-8s sold nationwide in January. Now January is not a great month for sports cars, but less than 100 units sold nationwide is abysmal.

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

The current MX5 weighs 2480 in manual trim and Mazda's plan is to put it on a diet for the next version (ND) chassis. An RX through styling and the wankel would not have difficulty shining it's own light while sharing 'architecture' with the next MX5.

Paul.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I'm tired of these doom and gloom comments, and your going to get a bit of the brunt of my annoyance.

Could you tell me how many new RX-7s were sold in January of 2010? What about all of 2009? 2008? 2007?

Wait, you mean that the last time the dealer was able to successful sell a new RX-7s was 1995!?!?!?!? Seriously? 15 YEARS? Wow. That RX-7 is completely dead. No one wants one at all. Might as well go ahead and crush em if you got em. There hasn't been a chance for that car's survival for nearly 2 decades.




So....why are people still driving them? Why are they still highly valued among rotor heads? Why are there still aftermarket companys making money off of them?

I don't care if the RX-8 ceased production and the last new one was sold off a dealer's floor today. The 8, of both series, is going to be around a long time, it will maintain a loyal fan base of whatever size, and for some reason people keep crying doom and gloom over the RX-8's end of production like the car's soul is tied to the factory assembly line, and every 8 in the world will spontaneously combust when the assembly line shuts down.


I mean seriously. Shutting down the assembly line would actually start the slow swing back towards increasing value of the car, rather than a continually plummeting rock. It wouldn't happen immediately, but look at the RX-7s. You are lucky if you can find one for "blue book" price or lower. Stopping consumer production of the 8 will start bringing to an end of the stupid people buying it for "it's smooth V6 and great mileage and great looks", which means the negative image will slowly start being eliminated, and if you see one on the road, it is much more likely to be owned by an enthusiast. Again, not going to happen overnight, but that can't start until the production line ceases.

And I am 100% ok with that.

Sure, produce a rotary powered Miata, make it a 13b or a 16x, I don't really care, because yes, I will buy one, and yes, it will be parked right next to my 8.


If you are so willing to give up on this car, then please, do yourself a favor, and get rid of it and buy the Honda parked in the next spot over.


/rant



Sorry, nothing personal, it just gets under my skin...

Spin9k

Thinking ccd was bemoaning the potential loss of ANY rotary car being produced in the future given the (abysmal) sales figures of the current 8. And I completely agree that the possibilities are getting weaker by the month for both the 8 and any future car.

If a company can't see a convincing case of making money on a new model, chances are it won't see the light of day. If a company can't itself can't engineer an engine meeting future realities....it's absolutely stillborn. Now Mazda's supposed soul and DNA is part rotary, but it is still a business, not a charitable production facility to supply cars for rotorheads into the future.

Profitable car production is mass production, not 100 cars/mo production. All the RX7s and all the RX8 already produced won't make squat on the bottom line at Mazda in the future. It being a public company future mass production on some reasonable scale (coupled with people buying the car) is exactly what's needed if we're to ever have a ghost of a chance of having another rotary car green-lighted.

ccd

There is no correlation between unit sales and the quality/greatness of a car. However, unit sales are a good indication of when a model will no longer be offerred. Poor unit sales along with the deafening silence from Mazda strongly indicate that this is the last year for the RX-8. This is not giving up on the car, just drawing a logical conclusion from the facts available.

bhop

Why would possibilities get weaker by the month Spin9k, for any future car?

(I would not be surprised if the 8 is no more after this year or next.....)

Marklar

Remember, the FD cost as much as a Porsche back in the day. And as far as sales went it was a flop, not to mention all of the warranty service Mazda had to do on them. It WAS fail, as far as Mazda was concerned, despite the glowing reviews and respect from the sports car community.

Think about it, what sports car did Mazda make that was a huge runaway success? The little underpowered inexpensive Miata. That was win as far as Mazda was concerned. The Miata helped to save Mazda from the money pit that was the FD. What do you think Mazda learned from that?

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a new two-seat turbo'd 16X RX car, but how many of us would be able to afford it if it cost as much as the FD did back in the day? That's the real problem. People with that much to spend don't normally shop for Mazdas.

We're lucky the RX car didn't die with the FD, and that Mazda is even attempting to continue the line. Don't get your hopes up too high about power.

The 8 has had a pretty good run. I'm sure there will be a new RX car eventually, Mazda has too much invested in rotaries to just drop development. But the poor economy and the difficulties involved in rotary development mean that we may have to wait a few years.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

While I love the rotary engine, does it make business sense for a little company like Mazda to make it? I'm glad they do, but I'm afraid the answer would be no. They alone have to shoulder all the R&D on the engine, where as the piston engine's development has been spread over hundreds of companies for more than a 100 yrs. Just think what could be achieved if that much energy was put into the rotary.
I have a feeling that the rotary will die in less than 20 yrs and be just a footnote in the history of the automobile.

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

It will probably die not that far from the rest of internal combustion engines. That creates some sadness for me but maybe just because I'm a creature of habit and enjoy the rotary sensation so much.

Paul.

ASH8

You all forget the ROTARY ENGINE is an excellent design for Hydrogen use...if that "ever" becomes a mainstream fuel???..

NO...YES...Who Really knows...it is ALL too early...

I just do not think "people" are ready to 'Plug in" and "charge up" their cars batteries for the next mornings use.

Good excuse to have the day OFF work..."Hello Boss"...I forgot to charge the Car last night..can't make it to work"""..

Or will there by an AUTO drive ON Floor Plug in your garage or carport, so when you drive on it you get an Auto Charge Up??

Sorry, electric Cars leave me COLD...No Soul...No life...YES can be fast like the Tesla, BUT...

arghx7

There's something about the rotary that inspires hardcore adherents. The rotary killed NSU (the company that Felix Wankel worked for), which was gobbled up by VW in '69. It almost killed Mazda in the 70s. Then it helped almost kill Mazda again in the mid 90s. Yet the loyalists soldiered on and made the Renesis, the profitability of which profitability we can't be sure. The rotary will continue in some form at least for one other generation of car model, whatever it may be.

The best you can hope for performance wise is something like what Mazda did in the 80s. In 84-85 you had the base 100hp carb'd 12A engine and the 135hp 6 port 13B, as well as the turbo 12A in Japan. In 86-92 you had a non turbo and a turbo motor. Rx-7's didn't start getting really expensive until the convertibles and the FD.

Lebren

iTrader: (5)

The Achilles Tendon of the Rotary Engine is the bad publicity it has gotten of unreliability, thirst for lubricity and fuel.

If Mazda could address this, and they are, the reputation of the Rotary Engine will be restored. The RX series are a unique blend of Mazda's ingenuity, it has race heritage, and cost to performance is fair. Mazda could get by without the RX program, while it truly is the DIE HARD FANS that continue the Revolution of all things Rotor.

Poop

Why does most people have to think the new "rx-7" car WILL have to have a turbo?

One of the reason the FD needed turbo is because the 13b-rew could not produce naturally aspirated 250 hp. From the "rumors" the 16x is expected to have 20-30% hp gain or comparable to a 3.0L V6. That is increase hp to naturally aspirated 275ish hp (rumor said the 16x is capable of 350hp). With mazda's goal of reducing weight of atleast 100 kg (that is 220lb), even with only 100lb reduction, that reduces the rx8 to 2953lb.

FD's mass is 2830lb with 272hp. That means even without the turbo, and the new RX-? will be able to atleast or close to matching the performance of a FD. In addition, a stock FD is capable of 0-60 in 4.6s.

In my little dream world, i have a feeling the current 16x is capable of producing the same number as the renesis, but since mazda need to meet their ambiteous goals. They will delay the engine until they meet the goals.

77mjd

There's no need for a 2011 since as we get into 2011, there will still be plenty of '10s left on lots, just as there are still a ton of '09s sitting on lots. Unless there are significant changes, there is no need for another year.

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

Thank God there are DIE HARDs in the top ranks at Mazda North American Ops. That is one of the things keeping the rotary dream alive.

Paul.

Spin9k

common sense? Ok, think of it like animals in the wild. The company is the herd of animals. So who typically gets killed by predators and/or by simply dropping dead? Why the weak and injured of course. Reason? Because they don't help the herd, in fact they hurt the herd, they're a liability to herd safety, require extra attention to maintain, and can't hunt to help support the overall group.

This is the position the RX-8 is in. It's wounded (recalls, bad press, engine failures). It is weak, perceived or otherwise (can't keep up to competition, let alone younger members of it's own pack (MS3), is outrun by most other competitive predatory animals (similar priced sports/sporty cars), so it's easily dispatched in the sales environment, resulting in worse and worse sales figures over time. It is also unfashionably thirsty (oil/gas), and the herd (Mazda) is not bothering/frustrated/unable to deal much with it anymore out of self preservation/costs.

In the wild the stragglers get left behind to die, and that's what's happening to the RX-8 as each month of continued non-sales success goes by. Darwin at work in the captialistic industrial age. At some point to continue to do what may not, in fact, be possible to do, would be a clear sign of insanity, and impossible to support in a public company.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

The rx8 is a dying animal.
It will alway be a GREAT car.
I personally think it is the best all around true 4 seater sports car ever made that doesnt require a 2nd morage on your home.
Mazda's focus is now the Mazda 3---in racing, advertisement and developement.
The RX 8 is never advertised now.
The S2 version corrected a lot of the oridginal problems with the car but it was too little to late.

Now anyone know how many are being built every month?
The 16x engine would not rescue it.
No company such as Mazda would build 2 separate 2 seater sport cars
Wish I could afford to buy an R3 right now to save.
OD

ASH8

Mazda need to go back to the success of the first RX-7. light, small and fast enough..

The Horse Power race we have seen over the past decade will not sustain.
POWER is not the be and end all in a car...get rid of the weight...including the driver!

IMO there is no reason why the next MX-5 and RX could be the same size, the current 5 and 8 share same platform..they even share the same accelerator pedal...Left and Right Hand Drive (See Toyota!). F157-41-600D (F151-41-600D without Aluminum Pedal).

Why not a convertible MX-5 and a fixed RX-Rotary Coupe, with different outer skin?

If you want a rotary?? the Money or Sales are not there for a "sole" stand alone car anymore.

Razz1

I can't believe you didn't mention that UGLY happy face, jeep steering wheel, and Out of design flow BMW side marker.

TALAN7

In order for the rotary to survive it will have to make major advancements in reliability, performance, and most importantly efficiency. Look at the renesis, it's 1.3 liters for petes sake! I know it makes 220 hp for 1.3 liters but it gets worse gas mileage than many newer large v8s. Now that turbos are coming bck on many 4 and 6 cylinders with really good mileage, the rotary will have a hard time competing. The rotaries only true plus is size/packaging and the results of such are kinda intangible. Yeah it handles, but many piston engined cars handle well.

In the future do you think shopper will look at a turbo six or v8 engined sports coupe getting 28 miles per gallon making 300-400 horsepower and then look at a rotary powered vehicle making 250 hp getting say 22 miles per gallon and say give me the RX car. Weight savings is good but there isn't enough weight savings in the world.

I like the rotary but it has many hurdles. Reliability is one, but I'd take the existing reliability with an engine that made 50-60 more hp and torque. Power is key for the driver, but most importantly efficiency will be paramount in order to pass emissions. Does Mazda make the 16X only to have to put the wrong oil in it to pass US emmissions. There are so many variables that would have had mnay other companies throw in the towel by now. What would look bad for Mazda and what would absolutely destroy the rotaries future would be for Mazda to not get it right next time. In that light it makes more sense for them to make a lighter 2 seater car, yes it's not as practical but that's the 8s problem. It too compromising. There aren't many 2 seater sports cars on the market but many coupes. Let the coupes be big and heavy, with big powerful engines. But if you're going to be a ture sports car you gotta go all out. Nobody wants 3 years from now be on this board apologizing for the new RX7s performance shortcomings when it can't get around the track as fast as a Hyundai coupe. The old RX7 was fast.