mikeb

wow
have not heard from preacher for a long time

you sound pissed man

Swedishmax

I say instead of buying the greddy, drop a few more grand for a 20B and a small turbo....you'll be running 500whp easy. check out Acosta

( http://www.acostamotorsports.com/html/ )

... but anyway. the the new eclipse does put out some power ... but the performance is'nt very good... i think the curb weight is something around 3600 lbs. 0-60 was around 5.8.
i agree with preacher though...mazda needs to sharpen up. our market is full of 300 hp + cars ( Sti, charger, mustang, M3, 350's etc....) and i understand that our car is great " in the Twisties" but the U.S. market just has too many cars that can overcome their lack of finess and handling with raw power. it's too bad...i love my car and probably will never get rid of it but i just can't help feeling cheated a little bit. 2007 LS2 Camaro 400hp, im waiting.
-Max

Fanman

A few more grand for a 20B. I hope you were joking. It's a bit more than a few more grand.

I do agree with you that the RX8 is lacking. That is why I said that the RX8 with the Greddy turbo (& mine puts out power in the 240-250 whp range) is about the perfect RX8. If they had a SC'ed/Turboed RX8 putting out 300/325hp I'm sure it would be a big hit. Only problem is that the current RX8 is already MSRP at low 30's. You can't get much higher than that and expect to sell.

Preacher

Hi,Mike,how ya been?
Yeah,I'm a bit annoyed,it's THAT obvious? :D
I got the car out of storage in April,and immediately had another issue:
When my oil pan was replaced,the idiot dealership left it 2 qts short,causing more oil pressure light issues....then the a/c started it's b.s....and I was off & running.
The a/c seems to be fixed now,but it's been seemingly one thing after another,and with about $35K invested,it gets on a nerve again and again,every time there's a flaw in the car.
Currently,there's a crunching sound when I take right turns,I expect the dealership to tell me "it's perfectly normal,just deal with it",or "we cannot find the noise.and we have no idea what's wrong"....and the car stinks like sulfur when it starts in the morning,smells like post-fireworks waste-smoke....I'm sure that's another 'invisible design flaw' with the ECU,that Mazda can't/won't acknowledge....
I can go on....
Those'll be the next traumas,du jour.
For all the bullsh*t,when I do go to the dealership,they fob off some loaner piece of crap Mazda3 with 100k miles or a ford tempo with used rubbers in the ashtray....when I drop that much cake,I expect a DECENT loaner-and neither Mazda dealership in my state gives anything but filth-crusted parts cars to drive.
Q: Do you think this happens at Infiniti?
A: It does NOT.
If you bought an Infiniti,you drive one while they sevice yours.
I didn't drop all this cash to be treated like a ford focus buyer,and you can bet that Mazda has NO IDEA of the concept of 'high end customer service'....
Consumer Reports ripped the 8 for its' unreliability,and Mazda USA's NEVER answered any of my letters asking them wtf they were thinking,releasing a car that needs a dozen ECU reflashes in its' first 18 months.My problems with them are WELL documented,I assure you.
I sent LOTS of ones and two one the 1-5 scale,and explained them,succinctly,on the dealership surveys they're always DYING for you to send back in.
(Clair Mazda,in Saco,Maine,are one step away from criminally negligant in their inability to service the 8s they sell-it's a Farce of the Highest Order,and they'll touch my car over My Dead Body-Morong Falmouth does all my work,now-as Clair was so assbackwards it was either change dealerships or drive my 8 through their display window-to make a POINT.
Hell,the 2005 8's already had four or five reflashes,doesn't that tell you they're full of sh*t?
They can't even get year #2's ECU straight.....and that just outright SUCKS.

I still like the car,but I can,and will,likely do better.

Too bad for Mazda,they could have had a customer for life,but this about blows that for them.
Too bad,my 1980 RX-7 GS was a Great Car.
I guess that time has passed,and Mazda's in a state of mediocrity,and we can thank ford,I'm sure.

Pisser.


(I'm off next week to redo more of the weak-*** stock stereo. A custom cab with a 10" Rockford sub and a 250W RFosgate amp,along w the RF 6x9s and Eclipse fronts already installed should do the trick-)

Pissed?

Yeah,but more DISSAPPOINTED.

KYLiquid

from reading the article and looking at the car domain site, this is a SHOW CAR, the other 2 were much more 'track ready' that tis car, also they said 224hp and he said 235hp +/- 10 hp can all be dyno but i am willing to bet this greddy kit is just out of the box untuned or fairly untuned.

bottom line this is not an example of what a properly setup car the rx8 can be.

Pkskull77

I agree a ton of power can be had from the Rensis, but I can guarantee you the cost will make it unattainable. For some odd reason Mazda felt the need to make the car ultra complicated, rather than making it simple. Generally speaking, engineers should strive to make things as simple as possible, therefore increasing reliability. As a consequence of the complication they put the car out of reach for the basic tuner, and created a beast that not even they can figure out (aka the millions of ECU issues).

In order for after market support to ramp up, the car is going to have to age to the point where people are willing to gut the motor, and build it back up. Unfortunately, that’s quite a few years off. By the time it reaches the “gutting stage” their will so many new cars on the market, that people will have moved on.

Will we see 350+ horsepower 8’s? Hell yeah, but most of them will be show cars. The cost will just be to great for the average 8 buyer to afford. If you want power your going to have to get it in another vehicle.

Pkskull77

I don't understand why the talk has to be about what the 8 "can be." If it was meant to be a 300 horsepower car, than it would come that way. Mazda knew the car could not reach those levels without seriously sacrificing cost and/or reliability. A well tunned 8 putting down 300+ horsepower will cost you will over 10 g's, and at that point you might as well buy something else.

RotaryIT

I disagree. I do see where you are going, but I think that the power to be had from the Renesis is obtainable, and withing a specific range of performance that Mazda expects. What the hell do I mean by this? Well, there is more factory performance to come. How can they build a "Mazdaspeed" if it doesn't have significantly better performance? Let's look at the MS6. From a 220hp NA V6, to a 274hp DI 4Cyl Turbo...54 horses, and tons of torque. The MS Miata, from 142hp NA 4cyl, to a 178 hp 4cyl Turbo...36 horses, and 41 lb/ft more torque.

At the bare minimum, the MS RX-8 would have to produce about 275-325 hp at the crank, and 175-215 lb/ft to be competitive in todays market...that is for us, and what we compare it to. An RX-8 is not in the same category as an STi, or Evo...it's more the 350Z, and G35 type. Nissan is picking up the pace in their Nismo Tune, so Mazda needs to step up the 8 to remain in the fight.

How do we get 275-325 hp out of the Renesis? You fix the MOP, and you boost the hell out of it...or, you drop another rotor in...a Renesis 20B you could call it. They have to handle this heat problem, whether is great cooling capacity, or more air flow throught he engine compartment...by the way, I pulled the seal from the hood at the base of the windshield, and packed my intake with dry ice on a pretty hot day...the evaporating dry ice vapor was flying out from where that seal was...and I think it help reduce heat in the engine bay.

I am hoping that Mazda will surprise us, if not....I will probably get a MS6 for all wheel drive, and good power. Won't be as fast, or as good looking...but I'll get better mileage, and better Michigan winter traction.

khtm

Have a beer ready for me when I show up at your trailer park to celebrate :p

Fanman

You have given a reason on why the whole aftermarket should not exist. But as been shown here & every other board it does exist. It doesn't have concerns that the OEM has such as cost, emssions, market, etc. Some people choose to drop $5K-$7K to get their car to 240-250 whp (Greddy). I personally like the looks & drive of the RX8, yet wanted that extra power. If hp was the only thing for me I would have gotten an Evo or Mustang. I think all the other poster was trying to say was that the 224 whp is low for this kit. And it is. A properly tuned Greddy turbo on this car will give you 240+ whp. That would have been a better showing for the RX8 in this shootout.

Look at the previous generation RX7. It came only as a turbo, and was expensive at that. If they would have come out as a NA with the same body & ($10K less) it would have sold like hotcakes. You will always have people that want power with the looks (hence they did sell thousands of the turbo cars), but they are also trying to keep it under a particular price point & not make the same mistake as the past.

Pkskull77

The mistake of the 7 was two fold. Cost as you pointed out, was definitely an issue. A second issue was reliability. It cost Mazda a ton of money in repairs, and just as much in reputation. As a consequence Ford now owns Mazda.

As far as the aftermarket is concerned, I don’t understand why anyone would buy the 8 looking to upgrade it. For the same amount of money you can get a car which rides almost as well as the 8, and at half the cost upgrade the darn think to have ridiculous power. The fact is that the Rotary engine is a difficult car to upgrade, and in order to do so you have to almost dedicate any kit you produce to that car only.

With a piston based engine you can often use the kit for several cars, thus saving cost, and encouraging more companies to invest, driving prices even further.

Maybe it’s just me, but if you buy the 8 right now, you buy it “as is.” The cost of aftermarket upgrades makes it cheaper to invest in something that has similar characteristics, but a higher purchase price.

Fanman

From the board I think you are in the minority. Whether it is suspension, or appearance, or performance people are willing to upgrade their cars. For me the purchase wasn't based on most hp 9I would have gotten an EVO or a Mustang, or a GTO for a similar price), or outright handling (again an EVO, or an STI, or an S2000). It was a combination of style, utility (actual usuable backseats), very good handling & it's uncommon. For me there wasn't another car like it on the market. The Infiniti G35 came in 2nd (but they are far too common where I live), the S2000 came in 2nd. I'm not really looking at it as I have to have enough hp or pull enough g's to beat "abc" car. I liked the RX8, but the aftermarket parts just made it that much better in those respects. To me, no car embodies all the aspects I described above. Are their faster cars...yes. better handling cars...yes, stylish cars...debatable, all in one package...none. My RX8 now (with more power & slightly better handling is to me a perfect car that I can drive for a long time (whereas before I lamented about the low/ mid range power).

rotarygod

Saying a rotary is a difficult to upgrade is like saying a Civic is difficult to upgrade. Why do those guys spend so much on those little things? The simple answer is because they like them. Enough said about that.

silverx8

I talked to the local rotary shop when I got the car. They were uninterested in the 8 and had their hands full with 7's. A guy had put in the Greddy kit and the car drove so badly that he wanted it out. Given the Rube Goldberg numbers from the kit, the article saved me a ton of money and hassle taking it back out.

Sigma

I could apply that exact same argument to just about anything you can buy.

Why buy any car aside from a STi or an EVO? You can get all the performance, and even more, than you'll get from just about any car out there with any amount of money put into it. So why bother with anything else?

Why not buy a GTO or just about any GM-product. You won't find cars with cheaper, easier, and most definitely more HP/$ mods. For half the cost of a Turbo kit for just about any car, I can get 200hp from good ol' Detroit Iron. If you want to talk HP/$ when it comes to mods, a 5.7L LS1 is hard to beat.

RX-8 aftermarket parts really aren't that expensive. They're not really any more expensive than the 350Z stuff and their market is quite a bit bigger, more competitive, and the VQ engine is incredibly common.

Sure, compared to something like the Civic or LS-series mods produced by the hundred-thousand they're expensive. But they're really not "Oh my God that's crazy" high. The HP/$ figure sucks for a lot of them. You just gotta choose what you buy and make sure you're buying something that gives good power for the money -- pretty much only FI right now.

But you just can't justify modding a car financially. There's almost always going to be something out there that you could have gotten if you just figured in the cost of your mods to begin with. Even with just a few thousand in mods, which isn't hard at all to accomplish, you can end up with an entirely different class of automobile. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Civics, Altimas, RX-8s, 350Zs, or Corvettes. If modding made financial sense, i.e. if the RX-8 could be a reliable Corvette-killer for overall less cost, then manufacturers would probably already be releasing cars that way; and occassionally we do, like the SRT-4.

I imagine when I'm done with the RX-8 I'll have upwards of $20,000 in it -- there's a lot nice cars in the $50,000 price-range that could be bought for the same average outlay every month. Probably even some 'better' cars. Doesn't mean that I want one though.

1> Modding is a choice. If something comes up and I choose not to mod my car next month I won't have to spend any money -- that higher car note for that better car will always be there.
2> For more money every month I can drive a car that looks and acts like all the other ones, or I can save some money on the payment and put that money towards creating a unique car that I like even more.
3> It's a hobby and gives me something to do. If I wasn't spending money on my car I'd be spending money on another hobby, so not modding isn't necessarily money saved.

Pkskull77

To a large degree I agree with most of what you said, but I'd like to add some additional thoughts to your argument. I have generally believed that a large number of people who moded their cars did so because they got stuck with something they did not like. I also believed that the civics’ popularity on the tuner market was tied to their prevalence as hand me down cars. In other words, mom and dad gave their kid the civic, and the kid unhappy with the power made it something special. Upgrading a car incrementally is something most teenagers can afford to do.

In the case of the 8, its very rarely (if at all) a hand me down. People who buy the 8 do so because it’s the car they wanted. That being said, it doesn’t make much sense to buy the car that has a certain amount of horsepower, and then modding it something crazy, when you could have afforded a faster car to begin with. I know the 8 is sexy as hell, and I also know that it has the rotary engine, but aside from that there are plenty of cars out there that offer the same things with much more horsepower.

Owning a sleeper is also something that spawns interest in the aftermarket. Some people really enjoy driving a car that is generally regarded as slow, and when some old man tries to dust them off, showing him up. You certainly don’t get that when you’re driving the 8. People expect that car to be fast, because unlike a civic it looks very sporty.

All in all, it can’t be argued that the 8’s aftermarket is either cheap or extensive. There are plenty of other cars that have a much stronger aftermarket, which affords more horsepower for less. If you want to upgrade the 8, more power to you, and when your done please give me a ride. However, for now, your going to spend a lot of money to get generally disappointing results.

KYLiquid

im not talking just about power, or power at all really. this car was slightly faster than stock, but all measures of handling were REDUCED, so the car was a little faster in a straight line and slower in the curves and braking, in a car with upgraded brakes, suspension, tires/wheels.

I am just saying that this person thru TONS of money at their car, and prolly feels its faster, or at least better.

what I was saying is the car is good out of the box, and can be great with very simple and small mods. I feel this car has good power when your carving up some back roads, with a little 'fine-tuning', pads, coilovers, sways, sticky tires...it could be even better.

thats what I meant by can be, not just BIG POWER from the motor.

Pkskull77

Ok, but handling is not the 8's problem, it can do that just fine.

silverx8

I read the article at Walmart while they changed the oil in my van. I just felt sick. The Irony is that the Greddy 350Z was one of the faster cars.


Can't anybody get the HP out of this car?

I talked to a local RX7 tuner about the Greddy turbo, and he said that a local guy had so much trouble that he wanted the turbo off the car.

Fanman

There are several of us getting the stated/claimed 65-70 whp out of the kit. I think where people are messing up is that they expect this kit to be bolt on. It isn't. It needs to be tuned, as I am sure all upcoming kits will as well. Some cars will react differently than others. I was over at Mazfest & the Mazdatrix guys absolutely hated the Greddy kit, said Greddy came over & still couldn't get the issues resolved. Guys like Philodox (& I) have over 240-250 whp without a hiccup. My guys not an RX specialist but he knows cars. If you are expecting anything on this car to make power (from Canzoomer, to Greddy Turbo, to SSR/SFR turbo) without tuning then you are screwed. This car is following the RX7 in needing to be semi-babied vs. say a Mustang or Camaro (bolt & go).

Rotary Soul

ok so tuning in the deciding factor on whether FI works well or not. Well, i for one have no idea how to "tune" anything, so if i were to buy, let's say, a Canzoomer unit or a Greddy Turbo, how would i go about tuning it? who would I take it to to make sure it is tuned properly? i'm all for more low end power but the uncertainty of the investment seems a little daunting.

Silverarrow

funny, the mazdatrix guys didn't have any qualms about selling mine to me....no hiccups for me either

Fanman

If you are in LA there are several shops that know what they are doing. In the san Fernando Valley you have Tri-Point Engineering, in Santa Ana you have Rotary Reliability. Hell, my mechanic is in Chatsworth. If you want his info just PM me. Tuning means that you put on the kit (or PB ECU), take it to the dyno, run the car & check out the air/fuel ratio, timing, etc. From there, if you are running rich you can take out fuel, or if you are running lean (add fuel back in) with software from Greddy (Support Tool software) or with the software from Canzoomer. Somewhat easy explanation, but if you are a beginner that is the basics. Stuff like air intake, or hi-flow cat, or cat back exhaust are quite a bit easier but won't get you anywhere near the hp gain of this other stuff.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

The 8 is the 8 is the 8. Yea--hard nut to crack. Problems--yea a few. Any new car will have that. But somewhere, hiding, lurking in this car is a little more power. The ecu is the bottleneck. It controls too much stuff and is too interrelated. Until some genius somewhere builds something to get around this ECU (and I have been saying this since Jan/04) there are only going to be slight to moderate gains in hp/torque. But if it is massive hp/torque that you want ---then get something else.
Currently to the best of my knowledge Racing Beat has it going on with ecu research. Many tuners out there and good ones but RB is the one doing the proper reverse engineering on this thing and so far it's not looking that great.
Many people have said that Mazda has done well with this engine so porting will not give you that much etc. So with that in mind the ONLY way to get the power people are voicing that they want (300+) is FI. Thats means tuning with the appropiate stuff when available.. That means time and money. That can also mean fustration with the climate change/elavation adjustments, if that cant be factored out of this "learning "ecu.(Thats why I sold my CZ unit).
All in all though is that the RX8 is differant from any other car currently made. And -- it does it's job well. It is nor has it ever been a redlight car. But, put it on a Road track (not autocross) so the brakes/chassis/engine/transmission can all come together and it will eat any car in its horsepower/price range. Pull into the pits,the cooling fans never come on and at the end of the day you can drive off,stop at Home Depo and buya piece of 2/4/8ft long lumber, put it in the car and go home.
It's a great car with character and character can't be bought with any price.
Olddragger

bluedragon

I've seen people on this forum runnging a lot better than 14.4 on the quarter mile with the greedy. I've seen 273 rwhp with some good tuning, and some super cold spark plugs. I've seen a video of one running 14.0 and saw the time slips of one running 13.8 with a lot of wheel hop. This shows us that the car and the kit has mid to low 13 potential, which is quite an improvement over stock.