REsuperD

i think the identity the fd acquired may be a big factor keeping mazda hesitant about brining the rx-7 name back. unlike what the rx-7 originally started being, the fd was really in the *super sports car* class with its comparable contemporaries being the supra, twin turbo 300zx, corvette, 911, and maybe even the nsx and skyline gt-r. if you want to argue, keep in mind that in the early 90s several big comparisons ran by american magazines grouped all those cars together. and thanks to those fast-and-furious movies and all these teenage kids desperate to be part of the *import scene,* the rx-7 is remembered as this legendary fast and pure sports car. so if mazda brings back the rx-7 name and takes it back to its original roots as a small, pure, simple, light, likely naturally-aspirated sports car, you can bet there'll be people complaining and deriding it. they avoided some of that w/ the rx-8 'cuz it's really a different kind of car. alternatively, they can go hog-wild w/ the 16x and produce something that'll shut everyone up. a car like that may be too specialized and expensive, and sales-wise mazda would be walking down the same road as the fd. the 8 really is doing reasonably well, imo, so i'm sure they don't want to shoot themselves in the foot. that mazda can tune chassis better than many is for sure, the only question would be whether they can make a new rotary that's clean, efficient, as powerful as the nissan's vq, and cheap. i'm sure mazda's people are way smarter than me and know all this and more, but really who knows what's gonna happen...

takahashi j

iTrader: (2)

I feel that mazda has positioned themselves in the marketplace as best they could given the information they had at the time. The rx8 came out as a reintroduction of the rotary engine to a new generation of drivers. It has unique looks and styling. More ppl considered this car, as it is aesthetically pleasing, but also bc it adds a mix of practicality in there as well. Ppl who've bought this car did not even know what a rotary engine was before. If mazda had originally released this car as a 2-seater, there would of course be the die hard rotorheads that buy, but would not have as much mass market appeal. Now that the populace has once again been reeducated on the ways of the rotary, mazda should continue to push ahead to the 16X for RX8 and 24X for the RX7/9 for 2012 (compete with GTR)....LOL

dtorre

Oooh in 2012 I will finally be finished with medschool and just poor enough to pay for a bus ride to see a Furai-likevehicle at a local dealership

Please Mazda build this concept into a real car in 2012....pweeasseeee

fish1

keep the 4 seats! Having a backseat really sealed the deal for me on this car.
Having basically 4 doors has also kept insurance rates down for me too!
Still with the above and having test drove 4-5 8's, I still didn't know how good of a handling car the 8 really is untill owning one for the first week or two.
The car is amazing, sooooo much fun.
Very happy with my purchase so far despite the poor gas mileage.
Build two rotaries, a two and four seater.

Drumm09

That's a heck of a prediction Benjamz... I guess sales are still good enough to keep the current 8 until 2013.

I know everyone has his/her own ideas of what the next RX car should or will be. But I am hoping they can keep the 2+2 with only 2 doors, as a 2nd generation 8.

I doubt they will use the Kabura on the next RX being that the designer is now with Tesla motors. Plus that had a conventional engine in it, the one used on the MX5.

robrecht

That was the original plan with the RX-8 platform, but sales of the 8 just didn't support it. (See my sig.) Could still happen, but is it more likely now??? I don't know, but If I had to choose, I'd still say the rotary is better suited to a light-weight 2-seater coupe.

robrecht

The Kabura was designed to be able to use either a piston or rotary engine, and it's not like Franz von Holzhausen took the blueprints with him, nor did GM stop selling the Solstice when he left.

ASH8

MMMmm,
Personally, the way the car industry is going world wide I have me doubts we will see any new rotary in the near future..

If sales continue to slide the RX-8 will cease production well before 2012, I am thinking another 2-3 years max for the RX-8.

Then we will see a halt to the rotary again for awhile.

Now Mazda has control back I may be completely wrong, but I just can not see a business plan that warrants an all new rotary.

The reason the RX-8 sold well initially was because it appealed to a new generation and it had 4 doors...for the family guy.

Sports cars of ANY type are really only limited sellers once pre-orders are done.

The MX-5/Miata had a big sales bounce with the new model but after 18 months sales really slow.

I have said it before the Rotary's future is in Hydrogen or a hybrid.

Future Emissions along with Countries introducing Carbon Taxes have really change the future of a gasoline only rotary.

In the UK, The Feds have introduced a Carbon tax of 400 pounds ($600 US) extra per years for a Co2 reading of over 200gram per kilometer.
RX-8 owners (and other high Co2 cars) are selling their cars fast by 2009.

In Europe all new cars must meet 120 Grams per kilometer by 2015, which means small motors of 1.2 litres or hybrids.

The RX-8 is about 222 Grams, so for Mazda to cut emissions by almost half for Europe is impossible.

Without a market in the UK or Europe any new rotary will just not happen as it is not viable for US only production.

I wish someone can tell me how Mazda will do it without Hydrogen.

I just don't think a DI Rotary (16X) will be enough for fuel and emission control, that's if Mazda can perfect it.

Drumm09

Well I see your point ASH8. But Car&Driver magazine (I don't know how much weight this has.) mentioned that Mazda has a replacement for the 8 ready and that they were sticking to the 4 seat format with cheaper prices. Kindda like the original rx-7. Performance and good price.

Again, I don't know how serious Car&Driver magazine was about this, and the auto industry seems to be changing by the day. Regardless, the article mentioned that Mazda was thinking of a 2011 release.

PotatoSoup

This seems highly inaccurate.

If you read Yamaguchi's book on the RX-8, Mazda designed the RX-8 with a 10-year model cycle in mind.

04-08 were the first 5 model years

It was just refreshed, which will take it through the 09-13 model years.

Once it's run it done, I doubt there will be a replacement. Besides rotorheads on the Internet, no one is clamoring for another RX car.

But like Ash said, with the way things are going, it may not make it through it's model run, at least not in all markets.

The RX-8 is selling about as well as the S2000 right now, which is about 3000 units a year in the US (maybe 10000 world wide?). That is the very definition of a boutique car.

I think the RX-8 may live on in Japan until 2013, but it's probably done in export markets after model year 2010.

Socket7

The auto industry model of "Make a bunch of cars, then throw them to dealers and pray to god they all sell" is going to die along with GM and Chrysler. Hopefully we will see a change to "build to suit" style of supply chain. This would be good for cars that sell in smaller numbers like the 8.

Don't forget that the 8 is Mazda's halo car. If they get rid of it, they'll need something else. Probably rotary powered if at all possible, seeing as the rotary engine is part of their design ethos, and what they used to stand out from other automakers.

If the 8 doesn't live to 2013 in America it will be because of emissions standards. Not lack of demand.

ASH8

The US are selling about 340 a month, about 4000 a year.
Japan 200 or 2400 a year
Australia 600 a year
Europe, sales are DEAD, new Carbon Tax has killed off the rotary (V8's), only the wealthy will buy them....at a guess 100 per month 1200 a year.
800 a year in other markets.

So that is around 9000 a year and falling....

I agree, Emissions will be Mazda's Achilles heel.
I think we are at least 10 years away from Hydrogen as a mainstream fuel.

rotorhead335

I agree with virtually everything you said, except that I don't think hydrogen is a realistic alternative (cost, mainly). But tell me, where are cars like the Ferraris, big Audis, Bugattis, etc., going to go? In fact, what will Jaguar do in England? These are massively powerful cars that have gotten by, largely, selling to the super rich. If they are legally prohibited what do they do, write off Europe?

ASH8

I think what you will see in Europe for Manufacturers who do not meet their stringent 2015 Co2 emission requirements are heavy taxes on new cars.

So the super rich will still be able to purchase their Ferrari's , Porche's, etc.
Whats another few thousand Euros to them?

MattMPS

ASH8 you're OK and i quote most of your toughts. But EU rules on emission are based on a "average value" of the manufacturers car line up...there's no secrets that Mazda it's developing a Mazda 1 ultra mini car with smaller engine than Mazda2

In my opinion in Mazda are "making room" for a rotary powered car...Lightweight/2 seater e clean (as far its possible) i bet that a 16X rx-7 will be under 200 g CO2 /km
If a car with these numbers "is' killed" there are A LOT of german cars (6 cylinder gasoline) killed.....but germans are working on very smalls cars for this instance primary...

A bigger rotary powered car (example a bigger rx-8 with 4 seats) will be only hybrid...no discussion on it.....

robrecht

The RX-8 is not Mazda's halo car. Mazda stopped building its halo car. It may have hoped the RX-8 would sell well enough to resurrect the RX-7 halo with a Renesis. But the 8 did not sell well enough. It was too much of a compromise to appeal to enough of the sports car market. Don't get me wrong, I love my RX-8, it's a great compromise for someone who needs a 4-seater, but it is not a halo car. Does anyone really think Mazda treats it like a halo car? If anything, the Miata became the halo car.

The best use of a rotary IMHO would be the 16x in a light-weight 2-seater. That could be a halo car again. Add a turbocharger or two and we'd all be in heaven, but I don't think Mazda is going to do that again.

Maybe there's only one more engine generation before everyone is pursuing all electric and serial hybrids.

zoom44

ash forgets the new catalyst tech mazda has developed. a sniff test done now here in the states already finds practically nothing. with the new catalyst tech more "square" stroker rotary engine and direct injection Mazda will meet the 2015 standards with their fleet including the rotary.

Socket7

The funny thing is that a rotary is well suited to a serial hybrid. High power to weight ratio, doesn't take up a lot of space, and since you don't drive the wheels with the engine in a serial configuration, it can always run at maximum efficiency, which helps to take care of that whole MPG issue. It's also well suited for hydrogen, or LNG.

If the 8 isn't Mazda's halo car, why is it that every other car they make looks like an 8. They steal design elements from it all the time.

SlideWayz

For a serial hybrid, a gas turbine would be much better than either a piston or rotary engine.

Icemark

There is a very very simple answer to when the next RX-8 or rotary powered car will be out.

If the 09 body rear end changes on both the RX-8 and MX-5 are not sufficient to meet the 2011 USA rear side impact standards the next RX-8 will be out around the 2011 model year.

If the changes are sufficient, then you will see the new model out in 2012.

robrecht

Well alright, maybe with its poor sales and the delay of the new RX-7, the 8 became sort of a de facto, ironic halo car, but I don't think it was ever intended as such. Do you know of any other true halo cars that have not received a performance upgrade over 6 model years? Do you have some sort of objective definition of a halo car? Not sure its a yes/no kind of thing.

Drumm09

I agree with Icemark. 2012

Renesis_8

nice!
________
Colorado dispensary

Renesis_8

That is some good thinking based on solid information. The Series II should last them a couple years.
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Nessea

PotatoSoup

Again, in the RX-8 book, it states that Mazda designed the RX-8 based on a 10-year model cycle, and I think they will comply with that. Same as with Honda and the S2000 (which will probably be going away after the 2009 model year after being around for 10 years).

One of two things will happen:

A) The Series II will live out it's life as initially intended through MY2013.

or

B) Series II will be withdrawn from some markets, or the marketplace altogether, before MY2013 due to the global economic meltdown or issues with crash/emissions regs in some countries.

I don't think Mazda would have bothered to make the improvements that they did in the Series II if they were planning on having it around for only 2-3 years. I think some of the "Series I" owners here might be downplaying the significance of the changes made in "Series II". The Series II is the very definition of a signficant mid-cycle refresh, as in, it has received important updates and modifications that will take it through the second half of its life.