ASH8

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/au...next-rx-8.html

Buyers of Mazda’s next-generation RX-8 really will be having a ‘gas’! That’s because the firm is planning to offer it with a hydrogen-powered engine, Auto Express can reveal.

In a bid to curb the current car’s high fuel consumption and emissions, Mazda has decided the only way to make its rotary engine clean and green is to offer a dual-fuel version capable of running on both hydrogen and petrol. Mazda has been experimenting with hydrogen power for more than two years now, firstly in the RX-8 Hydrogen RE, and more recently in the Premacy MPV.


One source close to the firm suggested top brass will even discard the RX-8 name and employ a new badge, most probably RX-9, to highlight the coupé’s hydrogen-petrol dual-fuel powertrain.

Expected to be rear-wheel drive and take styling cues from the Taiki concept, the new RX-9 will offer a choice of manual or automatic transmissions and generate up to 20 per cent better economy and emissions than the current test mule.


But given that power falls by around 20 per cent when switched to hydrogen mode, engineers envisage owners using it for city driving, then flicking to petrol when more performance is required.

In this way, Mazda expects to improve the rotary’s economy, performance and emissions levels, bringing them more in line with petrol-electric hybrids. Sales are likely to start in 2012.

ASH8

If this is true???

Where are we going to purchase "Hydrogen" from in our Universe?

I can just see Hydro Stations popping up everywhere.

robrecht

Ugh! Actually, I don;t believe it.

RK

iTrader: (1)

Cool if true although the references to 'The Firm' make me doubt the authenticity.

Being able to run gas for those of use who want power/performance and run hydrogen for folks who like good looking automatics and have the infrastructure around them works for me.

Now someone needs to tell me they're going to release a Mazdaspeed RX-9 with a turboed 24b - Just Because They Can.

mikeyfuzz

It will never happen unless it comes with a free hydrogen tank that attaches to you house and 3 year supply of hydrogen.

robrecht

Just go at night

Jasonawojo

iTrader: (2)

How about a 20% economy improvement on the 1.6L? :P

kvndoom

I wouldn't even use hydro for city driving. Hell, I wouldn't even buy this car unless you could get it without the hydrogen crap.

20% improvement = around 19MPG city, 28 highway. How much extra will we have to pay for a lousy 3-4 MPG? Open your ears, people: if you don't want lousy mileage, don't buy a high-performance sports car!

EdwardsB

I highly doubt its true, but...

I would go for this if I had a solar powered hydrogen generation system at my house (free daily driving fuel), and it didnt cost any extra lol.

Flashwing

Power falls by 20%?!? Try closer to 50%! Mazda rates the Renesis at 230 bhp as we know. The motor on hydrogen produces about 100 bhp. Far from any kind of real performance numbers.

I applaud Mazda for experimenting with hydrogen and leading the industry with the rotary but this is honestly a pie in the sky deal. By 2012 there will still be little to no support structure for hydrogen and the costs for both the fuel and vehicle are way beyond what you would get with gasoline.

The "RX9" or whatever it's called will have the 16x engine sporting direct injection and all the features we have seen to increase economy and reduce emissions. Nobody can afford to pay over $100,000 for a hydrogen RX anything.

ASH8

Actually the original RX-8 Hydro did have a 50% HP loss when on Hydrogen, However, the next Gen Rotary Hybrid Hydro used in the Premacy (Mazda 5) has a 40% power gain when compared to the RX-8.

So Mazda have improved the HP output with their latest Hydro Rotary Engine.

RK

iTrader: (1)

Just a reminder that this debate is silly. People buy cars because they like them for different reasons. In order for the rotary to survive is needs to be put in cars that appeal to a wide enough market to keep costs of the product down. This is Mazda we're talking about - not Ferrari.

And calling the stock RX8 a 'high-performance sports car' is an insult to high performance sports cars. The RX-8 is a good sports car that gives people who want a daily driver that can inspire them on the highway or the track at a good value. The 8 also appeals to people who enjoy taking a toned-down stock car and making it into a high-performance sports car. However the latter aren't numerous enough to support the car without help from the former.

If you want the rotary engine to survive either a manufacturer who can produce very low numbers of cars and sell them at a very high price needs to embrace it or Mazda needs to increase it's appeal across the board. That means more power, more efficiency, and a design that will seperate the 7/8/9 from other cars.

Every other major manufacturer who produces cars that compete with the 8 (Nissan, Honda, BMW, etc.) have managed to increase the efficiency of their cars while increasing performance. Mazda has to do the same or we're going to see the rotary powered engine become a historical relic.

ASH8

I don't think the debate is silly at all..

Rotaries have never been Mainstream Cars since the late 70's.
Mazda has continued to offer the rotary in a specialist vehicle like the RX-8.

It is unique (unlike any other sports car), the rotary engine is what makes this car unique.

Who cares that Mazda does not do what other manufacturers have to satisfy a stupid market that insists every year a model has to have a larger more powerful engine (only because the US market says so)...it is all ****.
The older you get the more you realise that speed is vastly overrated.

Even today the RX-8 out handles ALL but the very best HIGH Performance Sports Cars, YES, we know it is not blister fast in a straight line, but look at what even Jeremy Clarkson says in the Video (look in Mazda Media Forum here) where he rates it in his top 3 for handling and fun, even up against the best super cars.

What do you want for the money?
I don't know of many or any car that continues to rewards their owners with fun year after year.

The RX-8 is not meant to be like other cars, it has never tried to be.
The rotary IS what makes this car.

It is very interesting to read in these forums owners who have traded their 8's in for V8's or more "faster" cars really miss their RX-8 and are wanting to return because of the pleasure this car gives them.

Mazda are one of the most consistent car Makers this industry has seen for decades and it is the only one AFAIAK which offer a fun driving experience across ALL it's range of cars, this has to be admired.

Mazda don't really make dud cars, do you know of any other brand that has such a complete range of person movers.

opus_opus

We'll have to wait until the RX-911 for that in the year 3000.

robrecht

Aside from the fact that hydrogen is not the fuel for the times, my main concern is how much weight and bulk the hydrogen tank will add. As for the engineering beauty of the rotary, the ideal platform will always be a light-weight 2-seat coupe--as long as Mazda returns to this formula for the 16x (without any hydrogen complexities) I don't much care what the do with the RX-8 4-seat successor. Don't get me wrong, I love my 8, but a heavy 4-seater is quite a compromise for a sports car and even more of a compromise of what the rotary is capable of in terms of freakin' fantastic chassis dynamics.

tjbourgoyne

40% of the fun gone with the flip of a button. No thanks. I would feel naked. I am right now but that's neither here nor there.

neXib

If you drive in queues half the day, why not?

And we have a hydrogen filling station about 10km from where I live.

Rotr8

iTrader: (2)

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/05/r...ydrogen-power/

robrecht

Extra weight--at last that's the main reason why I wouldn't want an extra hydrogen tank on a light-weight 2-seater coupe.

neXib

In America you could probably shave more off the driver than the car though in many cases :P

But still, even with newer safety features etc. if they spend some money on it it doesn't have to weight that much, compared to the RX-8. Two less seats and all.

RK

iTrader: (1)

I doubt there would be a lot of extra weight. They'll just reduce the size of the gas tank. But if they're going back to a 2-seat configuration and using the seemingly smaller body of the Taiki then we'd see a significant weight reduction anyway.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/disp...=upcomingTaiki

Plus there's this:

Oh and keep in mind they probably would produce a variant of this car w/o Hydrogen if it's true and if in 2012 hydrogen (or gas!) is still a viable fuel. I doubt they'd veer that far from the approach companies have taken with hybrids.

RK

iTrader: (1)

I think you read that earlier quote wrong:

They're not going to do this is it produces a crap car.

The complaints about Hydrogen due to its efficiency is valid however Hydrogen is plentiful and can theoretically be produced very cheaply. More frequent stops at a pump in exchange for not paying hundreds of dollars at the pump in 2012 isn't an unreasonable data point for people interested in buying a car.

robrecht

How much total extra weight to add a hydrogen tank that's safe and large enough to be practical --anyone have a clue?

rotarygod

The hydrogen rotary Premacy van only makes 40% more power because they are also factoring the power from the electric motor in with that figure. The engine on it's own makes far less power. Hydrogen is never going to make as much power as gasoline. It can't.

Hydrogen is just a fancy feel good option for the greenies. No one is going to use it. Most people can't get it anyways. It's all about green marketing. The fact of the matter is that hydrogen isn't going to be a vialbe fuel until it's cheap and easy to make. Unfortunately it's neither and there's no end in sight to change that. By the time they figure that out, all cars will be 100% electric anyways as that's the future which would relegate hydrogen to be nothing more than a potential fuel used by a range extender engine in the few cars that will still need them.

kvndoom

When Nissan, Honda and BMW start making rotaries, then we can compare HP/torque/MPG numbers. If Mazda wants to drop a V6 into the RX8 chassis and call it something else, then we can compare HP/torque/MPG numbers. The RX8 without the rotary is another "me too" car, not to mention it loses all the handling and weight advantages that make it so special. It's not my fault, yours, or Mazda's that so many people only buy based on numbers. Gains in piston technology are shared amongst manufacturers, so it stands to reason that over time power and efficiency gains can be made hand in hand. With Mazda and only Mazda working on rotaries, they can't borrow anyone else's notes, so advancements would expectedly come slower and be less incremental.