Mazda 3 MPS (Mention of New RX-7)
 

Article:

Mazda Gets Ready to Launch 256-horsepower "Hot Hatch" Version of 3

Date Posted 04-20-2005

HIROSHIMA, Japan — Mazda is readying a 'hot hatch' version of the Mazda3 — and we're talking jalapeño! The 3 MPS (Mazda Performance Series) uses the same 2.3-liter engine as the bigger 6 MPS, and this could make the car the hottest hatch on the market.

The 6 MPS puts out 256 horsepower — way more than the VW Golf GTI (197 hp) or the forthcoming Opel/Vauxhall Astra VXR (237 hp). This should give the 3 MPS a 0-to-60 mph time of below 7 seconds — blistering performance.

The 3 MPS will debut at the Frankfurt Motor Show in September and will go on sale shortly after. Its aggressive styling affirms Mazda is quickly shaking off its fuddy-duddy image, helped by the RX-8 and MX-5 sports cars.

These are likely to be joined in future by a new version of the classic rotary-engined RX-7 two-door coupe. This would sit between the MX-5 and the RX-8 and be powered by the RX-8's powerful rotary engine. Mazda insiders maintain the car will be built, but it is still at least three years away.

What this means to you: Continuing the trend in North America, Mazda is attempting to boost its brand by shedding its dull skin and pumping more exciting models.

From:
http://www.awknowledge.com/WVMA/cont...ontentid=34955

Sooo in-between the 5 and the 8... two door, same engine... if it has a better suspension, and just a tad smaller, it could be a really fun car. :D

--kC

It makes perfect economic since--because platform sharing is good for the longevity of the RX8. If the car was 2-door/2 seat less weight car it would match up well against the 350Z--even with the 6-port engine left as is and not boosted it could get to 60 in about 5.5 seconds with the current setup.

The 8 matches well with the 350Z right now (if you remove 1/4 mile). It gets about the same 60' time tho.

I would definitly be interested in the car tho... It would be a 'Sports Car' instead of a 'Grand Tourer' that the 8 currently is.

--kC

256HP MS3...no way??? I did not say anything about the MS6...but now they want to make a 3 with 256H? NO way...that will be significantly faster than the 8, it's lighter.

Mybe I'm freaking out...but come on Mazda???

Don't worry, the MS RX-8 can't be too far behind. Once its specs are announced, the pecking order will be restored.

Especially if a new RX-7 is 3 years out, Mazda will need to upgrade the RX-8's power. They know its power is a little below par compared to other cars in its class. And they're not happy about that.

I've said it before, it should be very easy for Mazda to make a new RX-7. The new MX-5's chassis seems to share much from the RX-8. All they need to do is create a chassis slightly bigger than the MX-5, keep the weight down, slap in an upgraded Renesis, design a drop dead gorgeous RX7 body (one that is an evolution of the 3rd gen), and we're good to go. The real question is whether there's a market big enough for 3 Mazda sports cars.

^^^I bet that the 8 will be discontinued with the reintroduction of the 7

shaolin might be right.

I wouldn't bet money on that.

The RX-8 has MUCH wider appeal than a coupe would have. RX-8 sales, while not stupendously high, are much higher than RX-7 sales were the last 10 years of production. The RX-7 while likely offering more performance ability than the RX-8 will surely sacrifice utility and perhaps even some luxury to do so -- being placed "in-between the MX-5 and RX-8".

If Mazda drops the RX-8 in favor of the RX-7 it's because they give up on producing a rotary for the masses and instead are content with it remaining an engine for enthusiasts and little more.

I agree, it's the RX-8 that makes an RX-7 viable. If the RX-8 continues to sell well enough, Mazda can justify borrowing its technology for a more hard core RX-7. But without the 8, there's no 7, not the other way around (IMO).

Remember that the simple reason 7 sales were down (and Supra sales, for that matter) was that very few people were ready to pay near-Porsche sticker prices for Japanese sportscars that fell a little short of the mark. Yeah, you could kick ass with very cheap upgrades, but people who drop that much at the dealer are looking for the prestige of the tags, and out-of-the-box performance.

Okay so then by your reasoning, the Z shouldn't be selling well either...but it is. Look, the main reason why the 7 died out in this country was because of reliability issues for one, as mentioned Porsche like prices, (my father paid 40 grand for his RX-7 in 1994, adjusted for inflation that would be 50 grand in today's market), plus the fact that the baby boomers were all grown up with families and moving on to SUV's. This is the reason the sports car generally died in the mid to late nineties.

There is no need for a 4 door sports car at the moment. Granted we've got the EVO/STi but that's a niche market. The fact of the matter is, the baby boomers kids are grown up now, and they're all going through mid life crisis again, and can now drive sports cars again. The current trend is for them to be mid priced sports cars with more technology than their predecessors.

It's my prediction that the RX-8 will continue to be for quite some time, and IF...that's a BIG IF, the RX-7 makes a return, it will be heavily based on the RX-8, but the RX-8 will be discontinued mainly for the fact that they only released the RX-8 to test the waters for a sports car market. Mazda was afraid after the extinction of sports cars in the nineties that America wasn't ready for a two door two seater car again...so they made a few compromises to ensure the car will still appeal in either case. Great idea...now that the market is there, and is demanding a more hard edged car to compete with the likes of the Z, well, the 7 will probably be released, and the 8 discontinued so that they don't cannabalize eachother in sales.

That's why I said that. Hope you understand my thinking...

The Z died for a while for the very same reason. They are much more reasonably priced now than the last of the TT 300Z's.

The Evo's and STi's came out with mid-$30,000 price tags after Porsche had climbed out of the 40's. Unfortunately, until the 350Z, the Japanese couldn't match a low-to-mid 30's price tag with a sexy body again (sorry, Ike :)).

All speculative thinking. And I don't agree with you one bit.

Yeah it's all speculative. My feeling is in 3 years, what will RX8 sales be like? By then, it will either be time for a new RX8 or an RX8 replacement. If replacement, it might be an RX7. In addition, if the MPS6 and MPS3 find success, it might warrant further increases in HP/performance for those cars. I can even imagine that scenario setting up the entrance for a new Mazda6s with increased HP and a general increase in focus and resources from Mazda. If those things happen, RX8 might be at a disadvantage. If rotary HP gains can not mirror gains in Mazda piston cars, then the solution for the rotary might be to go to a lighter car that can still outperform a piston engine Mazda sedan, for example, that has more HP.

Yeah, but you have minty breath, Shaolin, so you can hang around and be wrong if you like... lol

3 years? That makes perfect sense -- there is a pattern developing here:

2004 - RX-8
2006 - Miata
2008 - RX-7

shaolin your theory is that they were AFRAID to bring out a traditional sportscar so they spent a billion dollars(i dont know the actual dollars;)) and 8-10 years developing a highly risky weird looking 4 door sports car/coupe/sedan with an even riskier weird looking, quirky operating ,niche engine with a history of reliability problems instead? :rolleyes: yeah that makes sense :p

There's a big difference between the market of "Coupe Buyers" and the market of "Coupe Buyers willing to buy a Rotary-powered Mazda" and you're talking about even further differentiating that down to "Coupe Buyers willing to buy a Rotary-powered Mazda that won't currently consider an RX-8" -- you're drilling yourself down to a market that can't be larger than a few thousand people in the entire country.

There's certainly more people buying the RX-8 because it has 4-doors than there are people not buying it because it has 4-doors. Making an RX-7 isn't going to open the doors to any wider of a market than the RX-8 does currently, in fact it will surely be targetted at a smaller market. The G35 sedan, for example, outsells the G35 coupe by a 2:1 margin.

It doesn't need to be more "hard-edged" to compete with the Z -- 95% of the people buying these cars don't even want hard-edged. They just want a cool little sportscar they can drive to work in. The Z doesn't sell better because it's "Hard-edged", it sells for a great many intrinsic reasons. Make the RX-8 not only smaller by removing the doors and then make it more "hard-edged" and you again make the target market even smaller. If "hard-edged" is what people wanted Mazda could give that to them in the RX-8. Mazda is drawing a lot more people away from the 350Z because it is refined and has 4 doors than Nissan is drawing away from Mazda because the Z isn't refined and doesn't hae 4 doors.

And a small target market is fine. By Nissans' standards the Z is actually a much smaller seller than the RX-8 is. The Z only accounts for about 2% of Nissan's sales, but the RX-8 accounts for 5 times that of Mazda's sales -- 10%. You don't just play around with 10% of the market. If Nissan did something and lost 50% of its' Z sales, it wouldn't make a dent in it. But if Mazda lost 50% of its' RX-8 sales by clammoring after a smaller market of people who purely want a coupe, 5% of its' total production, it would be in a world of hurt.

And the other thing to remember is that a rotary-powered car has to target a larger market than a Z car. The 350Z has the luxury of sharing a platform with the G35 and G35 sedan which also all use the same VQ engine that is used in almost every Nissan application that there is. That's cost-sharing taken to the max right there. A rotary-powered car not only must sell enough units to pay it's own development, but also its' own platform development, and an entire engine-production facility just for it. The G35 sedan (despite being rather ugly comparatively) outsells its' coupe brethern by a 2:1 margin; Mazda can't afford to slice it's market in half by only choosing the coupe route.

By dropping the RX-8 in favor of an RX-7 model, sales would virtually certainly go down. There's nothing that an RX-7 by itself could offer than the RX-8 currently cannot (except maybe a convertible) or could that would do anything to increase sales. If Mazda wanted a faster, more "hard-edged" car to compete with the Z (which I find funny because the RX-8 beats it in every category except straight-line performance) RX-8 they could easily do that for a LOT cheaper than making a whole new car. An RX-7 could be produced parallel to the RX-8 for minimal extra costs (a great deal of platform, engine, and parts sharing) that would open the doors to the minimal market out there that the RX-8 is excluding. But producing just a harder-edged coupe throwing all the production costs on its' shoulders is is only going to yield the same results as past RX-7s -- a market so small that price must be raised considerably to come even close to covering costs.

RX cars have to sell well. There are just too many additional costs in their production and future support that other cars don't have to deal with. Without an RX-8 Mazda cannot afford to make an RX-7 -- not a reasonably-priced one anyhow. Given a choice between producing just one or the other, you can be pretty sure that an RX-7 targetted at a much smaller market would certainly lose out.

I agree with Sigma. However, I also think that if an RX-7 is released, its target might not be the Z. The 3rd gen RX-7 was one of Japan's elite sports cars and went head to head with cars like the Skyline GT-R and the NSX, but at a much lower relative price point.

My hope is that with an RX-8 (current gen or a 2nd gen 8 in 2009??) accounting for the majority of rotary sales, Mazda can justify making the RX-7 a pure sports car similar to the Lotus Elise. Lightweight and minimal, so a beefed up NA 16b Renesis can move it to 60 mph in less than 5 secs. By sharing technology between the RX-8 & 7, Mazda can load balance its costs better and produce the RX-7 at 350Z (Track model) like prices. The 7 could be more of a halo car, and built mainly because it's so loved by Mazda's own engineers.

If the RX-7 were to go it alone, it will be a very crowded market to compete in. We already have the Z, Elise, S2K, new MX-5, BMW Z4, Boxster, Vette etc. in the 2 seater sports car space. By 2008, some of these cars will be next gen as well. And, the old RX-7's nemesis like the NSX, Supra and GTR will also likely be reborn. If there was no RX-8 at that time to sustain rotary sales, the RX-7 would be snatched up by diehard rotary enthusiast for the 1st and 2nd year of its intro, but after that, sales could virtually dry up.

One good thing that might help the rebirth of an RX-7 is history. The original RX-7 was introduced in 1978 in Japan. I'm certain Mazda would like to celebrate its 30th anniversary in style.

If anything, mazda will make an rx-9 in probably 5-8 years. Mazda has never gone back model #'s in the rx series. There is no point to build another sports car that competes with the in 8 sales. I think an rx-9 would be the next 7 if mazda meets their targets with the 8.

If they won't celebrate a 25th anniversary then why celebrate a 30th.

The MS Mazda 3 (or Mazdaspeed cars in general) could cover the practical sports car niche pretty well. That would leave the rotary niche for the RX-7.

Seems like both sides have good points. If anything, the intersection of the rotary, the market, and Mazda is unpredictable. Anything can happen, which is both exciting and frustrating.

If they do release the RX-7, I doubt they'd can the RX-8. Sales of the 8 will be dropping over the next few years and IMO the 7 would help to bring in new sales as well as support continuing the 8. Sharing platforms and rotaries would reduce costs for both cars. So maybe three years from now the 8 and the 7 would both be selling 15,000 units each per year.

As Nissan has proven, there's a market for affordable 2-seat sports cars. I believe a 7 and 8 would compliment each other.

because 30 is better than 25

Gas prices and rising insurence cost also killed Japanese sports cars. Also the only way to compete with similar european cars was to price cars it at a relitively cheaper price then european models....with just as much performance.

I personally think the RX-7 will fair much better in terms of performance oriented customers. I thought of the RX-8 as a ground breaking car for the introductory of rotary engines back into "sports car." Econoboxes sell better. I think the RX-8s appeal is more about its feel, usefulness, and price. And I recon that Mazda is trying to build off the the performance aspect of the engine by entering it in alot of races. I love the RX-8...but i feel the renisis will fair better in a lighter, shorter and wider car. It will surely shut some rotary haters up. In other words Mazda is trying to build a rotary following again and its not easy...RX-8 was the 1st step. I think the key is to keep investing in race programs and to attract more peopel into test drives. I know it wont have a problem in europe since they care more about overall balance in a sports car. But over here they want power and a a drag racing queen (lame). I think if their is a strong enough following then Mazda may keep both rotary models...but I assume both cars will not be priced similarly to compete with each other. Im looking at the RX-7 to take on the Nissan GT-R (R35) but cheaper of course...or atleast the porsche boxter.

What I dont like is this talk of a 1.5L NA Renisis...I would have hoped for a turbo version for the RX-7...I assume its because of emmissions and design aspect. I guess the engien itself was designed for NA use and only NA use...kinda sucks. But knowing Mazda anything is up in the air since each countries performance sector is different and caters to local followings.

New MX-5 (Miata) + RX-8 nose/renesis - convertible top = new RX-7

Most of the articles I've seen mentioning the bigger rotary have been 1.8L. An increase in displacement of almost 40-50% and you're looking at 360hp NA. That'll work for me.

hmmm...I read 1.5-1.6L with 300-320 hp...1.8L would be great! Im just a huge fan of turbo cars and high reving engines and a turbo car that can rev to 9000 rpm is pure sex to me. I would imagine a turbo renisis will give it better torque numbers. But I assume with a car that is probally going to be under 3000 lbs it doesnt really matter. plus I think with a turbo it will get alot more respect from some pretty subborn folks...I cant wait.

and I agree that the 7 and 8 will compliment each other. I honestly dont see the 8 going away. Maybe reduction in production numbers, because of the increase of rotary powered cars and mazda being the only one that mass produces them. but I feel the RX-7 will be in another league.

This is as much 'insider' type info as I can offer at this point: The RX8 isn't going anywhere any time soon. My boss has a good buddy who works for Mazda and he was working on parts (I believe transmission) for the next RX8.
I am also hearing rumors about 7s but then again "I see dead people" also.
Paul.

What kind of fuel economy would we be getting with a 1.8L or even 1.5L engine? Think about it....yeouch.

I neglected to point out this guy was doing this work prior to the first one coming out. That's right, he was working on the next generation before we saw the first one. It's crazy to think how far in advance all these products are being formulated and tested.
Paul.

If the MS3 has the same engine, even de-tuned, as the MS6, AND AWD, I'd seriously consider trading in the RX8 for it.

No one has provided proof that there is going to be a larger engine as far as I know.

Market this, market that.

Not to be rude or anything, but I hope Mazda either comes up with more parts for the 8, or comes up with a MS RX8 that has a more powerful engine (SC or TC or 20B'd) that would bolt right into our current 8 (Honda has a nack for this).

That's what I HOPE happens. The 8 is a capable car and I'm sure Mazda is NOT going to waste all that time$$, $$$$, and R&D$$$$.

All this talk about displacement... you guys sound like a couple of hicks talking about a 1970 Charger. This segment ( sport coupe ) is crowded. My wife and I wanted a '05 Mustang untill I found out that I couldn't fit in the back seat. Then we looked at a Neon SRT-4 until I found out that it's STILL just a neon. The WRX feels and looks cheap. Either way I wouldn't be caught dead in any of them. Take away the RX-8's rear doors and seats and I don't care how much horsepower it has. I'd be waiting for the MS6!

Bite your tongue! I have a 3-year-old and a 4-month-old... the RX8 is perfect for my needs.

You bite your tongue too. Given the choice between the hot-but-FWD 3MPS, the powerful-but-bloated-AWD 6MPS, and the balanced-but-slightly-underpowered-RWD RX8, I'll stick with the 8.

Well spoken!

Must have new RX-7........ must have...... must have......

The inference being that the RX-7 is dead but they don't know its dead?

Like I said b4 the 7 is dead. look for an rx-9 to replace the 7.

Like to see the rx8 with a 6 speed auto transmission which i believe its on its way then a Duel Sequential Gearbox would be nice with an extra 40kw by way of supercharger .

For me to give up on my current RX8 the next rotary wether it be called an RX7 or RX9 it would have to have a much better performance figure that we are or can currently achieve with forced induction from our RX8 .


cheers
michael

OK, fine. Since it sounds like Shelden is coming back, I'm in the mood to be magnanimous.

There is really no reason why Mazda couldn't offer the eight in two-seater trim. Like the Mazda 3 hatchback and the Mazda 6 sportwagon, the present 8 could be the "wagon" version. :D

Then again, if they called the two-seater version an RX-7 or even a Rotary Miata RX-5 (as a convertible), it wouldn't really matter, would it?

They wont call the next RX-7 an RX-9, ever, thats like calling the next mustang stallion. RX-7 is a name not a numerical.....thingy like bmw's 540i or 530i, an RX-7 is an RX-7 just like other cars with actual names like a corolla for instance, theres no need to change it. Also, theres a HUGE market for a RX-7, all of the RX-7 enthusiasts. The only problem is that most are poor like me, Mazda needs to make the next RX-7 modeled after the 2nd gen with a naturally asperated/ rx8 renesis motor version for 30k and a supercharged/turbo/bigger engine version for more. Thats the only way it can haul in the $$. The RX-7 club racers, addicts, etc are everywhere, if you don't believe theres a market, attend 7stock(if its continuing) or rotary revolution. Nearly everyone there wants a new RX-7

Exactly right. It's not the name, but the car itself that matters. A lightweight high performance rotary 2 seater sports car is what I'm hoping for, and it's the "RX-7" name that is associated with that kind of car.

Whether it's actually called the RX-8 coupe, RX-9, or RX-7 is up to Mazda's marketing and brand image research folks to decide. If it looks as good or better than the last RX-7 with performance to match, I'll buy one regardless of what it's called.

EDIT: But I do hope they keep the RX-7 name.

You're wrong! the RX is like the 5 from bmw. The numbers 1-8 represent the evolution of the rotary car. They won't back track so just live with it. The rx-9 will be the replacement 7 providing there is a market for one.

On the other hand, if you look at the non-rotary Mazda naming conventions, there is a history of recycled numbers. The Mazda 3 is a resurrection of the Mazda 323, bearing the same relationship to the 626 as the Mazda 6. The Mazda 5 is inheriting the Protege 5 number (even though the Mazda 3 hatch got the style).

Well, historically, you're quite wrong.

The RX-series has progressed over the past 40-some-odd years from RX-2, to RX-3, to RX-4, to RX-5, to RX-6, to RX-7, to RX-8.

However, I suppose one could make an argument that the RX-7 was so successful that its' name could be re-used rather than progress to RX-9. However I think it would be a dis-service to the evolution of the RX-7 to release a new RX-7 at a pricepoint of $30,000. It certainly wouldn't be a respectable evolution of the model, as there's little chance of it being on the same competitive level as the FDs were back in their day.

First off, the market of RX-7 enthusiasts isn't that big. Not in the grand scheme of automobiles anyhow. Big cities will have weekly meets for various types of cars that would dwarf the size of Rotary Revoltion. Secondly, a large portion of that market are satisfied (or even more satisfied) with the already-existing RX-8, making the remaining market rather small in the big picture.

There's no doubt there's a market for a true coupe. But certainly not one big enough for just a coupe to replace the much more widely appealing RX-8.

By the way, why does mazda have a Mazda 5 and an MX-5. Kind of confusing.

[QUOTE=Sigma]Well, historically, you're quite wrong.

The RX-series has progressed over the past 40-some-odd years from RX-2, to RX-3, to RX-4, to RX-5, to RX-6, to RX-7, to RX-8.

QUOTE]

Yes, but Mazda stuck with the RX-7 name for over 20 of those years -- with three different editions/models.