Confessions of a BMW owner......
11-02-2008, 01:21 AM
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Confessions of a BMW owner......
"I preface this thread by making the point that I love my 335i coupe to bits. I went into the purchase decision with my eyes wide open, and with previous BMW experience having owned a E46 325i sedan before I bought my Mazda RX8. After 7 weeks of "post RX8" E92 ownership I remain entirely happy with my choice, in the context of my current needs. I also recognise that all cars are compromises, and BMW's are no exception.
None of what follows diminishes my enthusiasm for E92 335i's truly wonderful engine, finish quality, yummy noise, practicality, exquisitely balanced handling on smooth roads etc etc. What it does, though, is signal that -in this class of car at least- BMW haven't quite reached perfection -yet.
Please also bear in mind that my 335i is Aussie spec, which means standard 18" RFT's (RE050A), on sport suspension (FWIW I believe the RFT's have been a relatively minor contributor to my criticisms below).
That's the background. Now here is the controversial bit:
Although it's an incredibly accomplished all rounder, there are a number of important respects in which the stock e92 335i is plainly inferior as a driver's car to the more tightly focussed, but half price, RX8.
1. On truly demanding ( read very tight,twisty, bumpy and poorly cambered) roads, the E92 is quite a handful. The car bounces around both vertically and laterally, frequently losing contact with the road surface. Left in default mode, the traction control light flickers constantly, reflecting the car's inability to get power to the ground in these conditions. To achieve respectable progress engaging DTC is essential, to overcome the incessant electronic intervention. The short suspension travel also results in occasional bottoming.
On these roads you never lose the impression that the car is carrying quite a lot of weight. In very tight corners there is some front end push, and in these circumstances turn in is not as sharp as it could be, especially if you are simultaneously working hard to wash off speed with the brakes.
By contrast, the RX8 simply murders such roads. Its suspension compliance and suppleness is extraordinary. It sails over bumps and camber changes that confound my 335i. And it does this whilst preserving accurate turn in and maintaining a feeling of lightness and agility that appears to be more or less absent from the BMW lexicon.
My suspicions: amongst other things ( the RX8's lower weight, lower centre of gravity etc) what we are seeing here are:
- the limitations of BMW's front MacPherson struts vs RX8's well developed alloy double wishbones, AND
- a development program that spends too much time on the lovely, cultivated, smooth roads of Northern Europe and not enough time on the truly demanding drivers' roads of, say, the UK ( did anyone say Wales??) or remoter parts of the US, or even insignificant, out of the way little Australia.
2. The 335i steering is good - certainly better than my E46 - but it lacks the precision of the RX8, which also manages to reduce its assistance as speeds rise in a beautifully controlled way. By comparison, the E92 steering is quite "glutinous" - it feels like all its linkages are embedded in thick grease. Unlike the RX8, it's heavyish at low speeds, but paradoxically no more weighty, nimble or confidence-inspiring at high speeds.
3. The 6MT 335i has an olde worlde, long throw gearshift which in my car (and some others', it would seem) is also occasionally obstructive for no apparent reason. I say this having owned manual cars exclusively for the past 28 years.
As manual shifts go, E92's has a satisfyingly mechanical feel, and is certainly much better than average. But the RX8 shows it can be done far,far better. Subjectively its shift is half the length; its throws are correspondingly far shorter and its gate is better defined and incredibly slick. You can flick it with your little finger if you want to,and it will never,ever baulk.
(You won't be surprised that procuring the BMW accessory short gearshift lever is high on my agenda.However, it doesn't seem to be available here in Australia so I'm still researching how I can conveniently get it!!!)
4. Although BMW likes to promote the throttle responsive nature of their cars, my experience does not completely confirm this. Throttle response on my early "drive by wire" E46 was plainly worse than on some - supposedly mundane - Hondas I've driven.
The E92 is clearly better, but the RX8's drive by wire throttle is, quite simply, a precision instrument. Despite a 48KW power defecit and 180NM torque defecit (Aussie versions) the little Mazda manages to feel incredibly responsive, because each tiny fraction of accelerator pedal travel produces an immediate, enthusiastic response from the engine. By comparison E92's response is a little doughy (like the E46) and also sometimes unprogessive ( presumably due to turbo-related artifacts)."
Taken from here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45738
None of what follows diminishes my enthusiasm for E92 335i's truly wonderful engine, finish quality, yummy noise, practicality, exquisitely balanced handling on smooth roads etc etc. What it does, though, is signal that -in this class of car at least- BMW haven't quite reached perfection -yet.
Please also bear in mind that my 335i is Aussie spec, which means standard 18" RFT's (RE050A), on sport suspension (FWIW I believe the RFT's have been a relatively minor contributor to my criticisms below).
That's the background. Now here is the controversial bit:
Although it's an incredibly accomplished all rounder, there are a number of important respects in which the stock e92 335i is plainly inferior as a driver's car to the more tightly focussed, but half price, RX8.
1. On truly demanding ( read very tight,twisty, bumpy and poorly cambered) roads, the E92 is quite a handful. The car bounces around both vertically and laterally, frequently losing contact with the road surface. Left in default mode, the traction control light flickers constantly, reflecting the car's inability to get power to the ground in these conditions. To achieve respectable progress engaging DTC is essential, to overcome the incessant electronic intervention. The short suspension travel also results in occasional bottoming.
On these roads you never lose the impression that the car is carrying quite a lot of weight. In very tight corners there is some front end push, and in these circumstances turn in is not as sharp as it could be, especially if you are simultaneously working hard to wash off speed with the brakes.
By contrast, the RX8 simply murders such roads. Its suspension compliance and suppleness is extraordinary. It sails over bumps and camber changes that confound my 335i. And it does this whilst preserving accurate turn in and maintaining a feeling of lightness and agility that appears to be more or less absent from the BMW lexicon.
My suspicions: amongst other things ( the RX8's lower weight, lower centre of gravity etc) what we are seeing here are:
- the limitations of BMW's front MacPherson struts vs RX8's well developed alloy double wishbones, AND
- a development program that spends too much time on the lovely, cultivated, smooth roads of Northern Europe and not enough time on the truly demanding drivers' roads of, say, the UK ( did anyone say Wales??) or remoter parts of the US, or even insignificant, out of the way little Australia.
2. The 335i steering is good - certainly better than my E46 - but it lacks the precision of the RX8, which also manages to reduce its assistance as speeds rise in a beautifully controlled way. By comparison, the E92 steering is quite "glutinous" - it feels like all its linkages are embedded in thick grease. Unlike the RX8, it's heavyish at low speeds, but paradoxically no more weighty, nimble or confidence-inspiring at high speeds.
3. The 6MT 335i has an olde worlde, long throw gearshift which in my car (and some others', it would seem) is also occasionally obstructive for no apparent reason. I say this having owned manual cars exclusively for the past 28 years.
As manual shifts go, E92's has a satisfyingly mechanical feel, and is certainly much better than average. But the RX8 shows it can be done far,far better. Subjectively its shift is half the length; its throws are correspondingly far shorter and its gate is better defined and incredibly slick. You can flick it with your little finger if you want to,and it will never,ever baulk.
(You won't be surprised that procuring the BMW accessory short gearshift lever is high on my agenda.However, it doesn't seem to be available here in Australia so I'm still researching how I can conveniently get it!!!)
4. Although BMW likes to promote the throttle responsive nature of their cars, my experience does not completely confirm this. Throttle response on my early "drive by wire" E46 was plainly worse than on some - supposedly mundane - Hondas I've driven.
The E92 is clearly better, but the RX8's drive by wire throttle is, quite simply, a precision instrument. Despite a 48KW power defecit and 180NM torque defecit (Aussie versions) the little Mazda manages to feel incredibly responsive, because each tiny fraction of accelerator pedal travel produces an immediate, enthusiastic response from the engine. By comparison E92's response is a little doughy (like the E46) and also sometimes unprogessive ( presumably due to turbo-related artifacts)."
Taken from here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45738
11-02-2008, 09:47 AM
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I works at a bmw dealer, so i drive all bmws all the time.
I think there are few reasons on the y the 335 give u that feeling.
1) the weight of the car, to me i think it's just heavy
2) the heavy wheels and RFT....those r damn heavy
3) the high output of torque and hp at low rpm, causes it easy to lose traction. throttle control is the key here.
4) factory alignment, front camber are very limited on bmws. The way the factory set up is, they try to make it less oversteery. Because most people on the street can't handle a real sports car with 300hp and 300ft lb of torque.
5) there's also some other stuff, like the fact that it doesn't has a real LSD...and so on.
personally, i think bmw's suspensions are great, when i say great, i mean great over all. It's good driving it hard, and also good as a daily driver.
Now, if u go test drive a new M3....ur mind will blow away....But then of coz, the price is way way more then a rx8.
I think there are few reasons on the y the 335 give u that feeling.
1) the weight of the car, to me i think it's just heavy
2) the heavy wheels and RFT....those r damn heavy
3) the high output of torque and hp at low rpm, causes it easy to lose traction. throttle control is the key here.
4) factory alignment, front camber are very limited on bmws. The way the factory set up is, they try to make it less oversteery. Because most people on the street can't handle a real sports car with 300hp and 300ft lb of torque.
5) there's also some other stuff, like the fact that it doesn't has a real LSD...and so on.
personally, i think bmw's suspensions are great, when i say great, i mean great over all. It's good driving it hard, and also good as a daily driver.
Now, if u go test drive a new M3....ur mind will blow away....But then of coz, the price is way way more then a rx8.
11-02-2008, 11:52 AM
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I recently purchased a new BMW for my wife. She knew she wanted a 3-series because of the looks, but the question was 335i or 328i. I defaulted to believing the 335i would be the better car, but after driving the two cars back to back, I changed my mind.
The 335i is heavier, and in the worst possible place... way out front. It handles like poo compared to the 328i. Plus, with the gearing the 328i feels every bit as fast from 0-40mph. All this for seven grand less. -> No brainer.
The 335i is heavier, and in the worst possible place... way out front. It handles like poo compared to the 328i. Plus, with the gearing the 328i feels every bit as fast from 0-40mph. All this for seven grand less. -> No brainer.
11-02-2008, 12:43 PM
#5
My suspicions: amongst other things ( the RX8's lower weight, lower centre of gravity etc) what we are seeing here are:
- the limitations of BMW's front MacPherson struts vs RX8's well developed alloy double wishbones, AND
- a development program that spends too much time on the lovely, cultivated, smooth roads of Northern Europe and not enough time on the truly demanding drivers' roads of, say, the UK ( did anyone say Wales??) or remoter parts of the US, or even insignificant, out of the way little Australia.
- the limitations of BMW's front MacPherson struts vs RX8's well developed alloy double wishbones, AND
- a development program that spends too much time on the lovely, cultivated, smooth roads of Northern Europe and not enough time on the truly demanding drivers' roads of, say, the UK ( did anyone say Wales??) or remoter parts of the US, or even insignificant, out of the way little Australia.
11-02-2008, 01:27 PM
#7
I works at a bmw dealer, so i drive all bmws all the time.
I think there are few reasons on the y the 335 give u that feeling.
1) the weight of the car, to me i think it's just heavy
2) the heavy wheels and RFT....those r damn heavy
3) the high output of torque and hp at low rpm, causes it easy to lose traction. throttle control is the key here.
4) factory alignment, front camber are very limited on bmws. The way the factory set up is, they try to make it less oversteery. Because most people on the street can't handle a real sports car with 300hp and 300ft lb of torque.
5) there's also some other stuff, like the fact that it doesn't has a real LSD...and so on.
.
I think there are few reasons on the y the 335 give u that feeling.
1) the weight of the car, to me i think it's just heavy
2) the heavy wheels and RFT....those r damn heavy
3) the high output of torque and hp at low rpm, causes it easy to lose traction. throttle control is the key here.
4) factory alignment, front camber are very limited on bmws. The way the factory set up is, they try to make it less oversteery. Because most people on the street can't handle a real sports car with 300hp and 300ft lb of torque.
5) there's also some other stuff, like the fact that it doesn't has a real LSD...and so on.
.
rx-8 maybe have others drawbacks, BUT in those areas is way better than a 335i...and for a lot less money..at least here in EU....
the commercial choiche of BMW of the absence of a LSD (at least w/option) it's criminal IMHO...if you are a driving enthusiast they force to you to buy a m3....not a fair game IMHO
11-02-2008, 05:12 PM
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I've driven both cars extensively and I can say I pretty much agree with you. The BMW 335i is more of a grand touring car with just enough sport to make for a fun drive when you want it to be, but is still a super refined(and porky!) car with nearly all the bells and whistles. It is nice and quite nearly all the time with little to no road noise. It of course has the BMW harsher handling characteristics(compared to say a Mercedes). The Rx8 is a sports car that tries for a little bit of refinement and drives like it. The comparison I want to see is a BWM335i with an added lsd and just a mild reflash and the M3.
11-02-2008, 05:18 PM
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For everyone's information, this was not my opinion, simply taken off the website.
Also for everyone's information, I would trade my RX8 for a 135i at the drop of a hat.
Also for everyone's information, I would trade my RX8 for a 135i at the drop of a hat.
11-02-2008, 06:15 PM
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ohh sorry about that I didn't read your post that closely. Either way I tend to agree with what the poster said, but the 335 and the Rx8 just really don't compete head to head they are very different cars. I on the other hand would certainly not trade my Rx8 for a 135i I actually looked at both and chose the Rx8 over it for similar reasons to why the Rx8 is different than the 335.
11-02-2008, 11:32 PM
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2. The 335i steering is good - certainly better than my E46 - but it lacks the precision of the RX8, which also manages to reduce its assistance as speeds rise in a beautifully controlled way. By comparison, the E92 steering is quite "glutinous" - it feels like all its linkages are embedded in thick grease. Unlike the RX8, it's heavyish at low speeds, but paradoxically no more weighty, nimble or confidence-inspiring at high speeds.
3. The 6MT 335i has an olde worlde, long throw gearshift which in my car (and some others', it would seem) is also occasionally obstructive for no apparent reason. I say this having owned manual cars exclusively for the past 28 years.
As manual shifts go, E92's has a satisfyingly mechanical feel, and is certainly much better than average. But the RX8 shows it can be done far,far better. Subjectively its shift is half the length; its throws are correspondingly far shorter and its gate is better defined and incredibly slick. You can flick it with your little finger if you want to,and it will never,ever baulk.
As manual shifts go, E92's has a satisfyingly mechanical feel, and is certainly much better than average. But the RX8 shows it can be done far,far better. Subjectively its shift is half the length; its throws are correspondingly far shorter and its gate is better defined and incredibly slick. You can flick it with your little finger if you want to,and it will never,ever baulk.
11-03-2008, 12:28 AM
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Holy crap that post is old, I read that ages ago. Sorry, but I don't see the point of bringing this up. There are thousands of threads from all kinds of sites saying good and bad things about our car. If you're going to cross-site thread post you might as well quote something more recent so we can at least jump in on the action at the other site.
11-03-2008, 01:08 AM
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Jumping in on the action at the other site? Someone needs to get a life.
Not all of us have been here for ages, I guess everyone should just stop posting as most everything is just a repeat anyways. Just lock the forums completely and turn it into an archive.
Not all of us have been here for ages, I guess everyone should just stop posting as most everything is just a repeat anyways. Just lock the forums completely and turn it into an archive.
11-03-2008, 01:35 AM
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You know what you should get for some handling fun? An E30 or an E36. I currently have an e34 525i w/ bilstens, m5 sways lowering springs and some things here and there and I can say that I can generally keep up with most cars in the twisties with my 14 year old 5'er. It wont be near my 8, but it is a fun fun boat.
(pic for reference) I also think its a sexy car for it's age and also a 5spd. (I'm partial to older Bimmers)
(pic for reference) I also think its a sexy car for it's age and also a 5spd. (I'm partial to older Bimmers)
11-03-2008, 03:53 PM
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11-03-2008, 04:21 PM
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11-04-2008, 09:02 AM
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So far, no cars that I'd trade my 8 for. Although there are cars I'd trade for money, grab another 8 and pocket the change.
There really isn't a package out there as unique as the 8. It's impossible to find a 4 passenger solution that has such a delicious, precision instrument feel.
Between a Stratocaster and a Stradivarius, my 8 feels like the latter.
11-04-2008, 11:27 AM
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Sorry, was in a "pricky" state of mind. I really dig the 135i, just not as much as the 8.
So far, no cars that I'd trade my 8 for. Although there are cars I'd trade for money, grab another 8 and pocket the change.
There really isn't a package out there as unique as the 8. It's impossible to find a 4 passenger solution that has such a delicious, precision instrument feel.
Between a Stratocaster and a Stradivarius, my 8 feels like the latter.
So far, no cars that I'd trade my 8 for. Although there are cars I'd trade for money, grab another 8 and pocket the change.
There really isn't a package out there as unique as the 8. It's impossible to find a 4 passenger solution that has such a delicious, precision instrument feel.
Between a Stratocaster and a Stradivarius, my 8 feels like the latter.
I do get what you are saying though, the RX8 is the best car for your current needs and current financial situation. It is the best car for me right now as well, especially considering the 8 year/100k warranty.