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-   -   2009 RX-8/ 8yr or 100k Warranty extension Press Release and Q&A with Jeremy Barnes (https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-media-news-11/2009-rx-8-8yr-100k-warranty-extension-press-release-q-jeremy-barnes-147753/)

Delmeister 06-07-2008 08:03 PM


Originally Posted by New Yorker (Post 2499608)
Do you believe MNzda would recommend an engine oil that would adversely affect the longevity of the Renesis, its technological pride and joy, knowing full well that the world would be watching the reliability of this "last chance" rotary engine under a microscope? And if, for arguments sake, in 2004 Mazda did recommend an oil that proved to be unsuitable for the Renesis, do you believe they would then continue to recommend it in model years 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008, knowing it could lead to the demise of the RX-8, let alone the rotary-engined car?

No (well said BTW), but given this, why is their behavior so mystifying. Why don't they explain what they are doing... why different oils in different locations with similar climates, why skimp on the ignition system, why add another injector but claim pre-mix is not important in the older models, why why why..........). And when they get the chance to speak to the whole community........read your owner's manual.

robrecht 06-07-2008 08:37 PM


Originally Posted by New Yorker (Post 2499608)
I have no idea what the engine replacement rate is for other 5-yr old models.

I've never made that assumption. As I've said before, my hypothesis is that engine replacement is correlated to one or more of the following factors:

• New to the market '04 models suffering from first-year-of-production teething problems (i.e. ECU poorly calibrated for US driving conditions)
• AT cars with just one oil cooler
• Owner neglect or misuse: i.e. not following Mazda's oil recommendation, modding the car, racing, wrong grade of fuel, not checking oil level frequently, not revving the engine regularly, premixing

Again, I don't assume these are causes; it's merely a hypothesis. Thus, I also suspect that few '05 and later MT cars, not modded, not raced, properly maintained, following Mazda's oil recommendations, not premixed—and revved/redlined regularly—will require engine replacement.

I do believe the Renesis has a narrower margin of (owner) error than ordinary engines. And I believe Mazda's changes for the '09 and beyond will reduce this margin of error.

No, I don't. In fact, I'd like to believe that 5W-30 is every bit as good as 5W-20—albeit at a small cost in fuel economy (and possibly effectiveness at critical start-up). Oil technology continues to evolve; today "full protection" and "better mileage" are not mutually exclusive. I wouldn't be surprised if, in time, the "rest of the world" comes around and moves to 5W-20—not just for the RX-8, but many cars. You read it here first.

Do you believe Mazda would recommend an engine oil that would adversely affect the longevity of the Renesis, its technological pride and joy, knowing full well that the world would be watching the reliability of this "last chance" rotary engine under a microscope? And if, for arguments sake, in 2004 Mazda did recommend an oil that proved to be unsuitable for the Renesis, do you believe they would then continue to recommend it in model years 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008, knowing it could lead to the demise of the RX-8, let alone the rotary-engined car?

Let me know if you are ever able to actually subject your multiple hypotheses to real evidence. I'm no expert, but your 5% guess for me does not seem like an acceptable failure rate in a modern engine. Personally, I find it hard to believe that it's that high and am even shocked at it but I have no data whatsoever. I defer to others who are much more knowledgable than me to investigate the cause(s) of such a seemingly high failure rate. Rotary rebuilders like Mazmart seem to have a lot of knowledge, experience, and credibility in this area. If Mazda representatives have a credible case to make to the contrary, we'd all love to hear it.

Footman 06-07-2008 09:19 PM

1) Why are North American models recommending 5W20 and the rest of the world recommending 5W30 when the exact same engine is used?

a) Are there different oil seals being used for North American engines vs. the rest of the world?
b) The Renesis engine by design can use EITHER 5W20 or 5W30 with negligible failure rates, and the decision to recommend 5W20 in North American is strictly to meet CAFE requirements?

Nubo 06-07-2008 09:54 PM


Originally Posted by jeremyB (Post 2498270)
...it should not be necessary to pre-mix at all -- you have a sophisticated metering pump on the engine that injects a precise amount of oil into the engine.

Yet, Jeremy, there have been multiple revisions of the car's firmware which have adjusted the oil injection in response to problems. As a consumer I take that to mean the previous iterations were precisely .... wrong. Given the number of adjustments to date I think you can understand why customers might want to hedge their bets when it comes to lubrication of seals and housings.

RotoRocket 06-07-2008 10:16 PM


Originally Posted by dmc27 (Post 2499264)
I agree, but as Nubo and a few others have mentioned there seems to be a land of limbo where owners get stuck between a dealership that decides the warranty won't be honored and MNAO saying "what the dealer says goes."

"- dealers: as you all know, every dealership is an independent business, neither owned nor operated by us. as such, they all run slightly differently. you are not obligated to return to the dealer from whom you purchased your car for service, nor are you required to service your car at a Mazda dealer. You are, however, required to maintain proof of maintenance of the car (per the maintenance schedule) if you wish to receive warranty service. I'm sure you can understand this..."

This response seems to imply (in my opinion) that Mazda knows there are dealerships that aren't top notch. I don't believe it reflects well on Mazda when customers get caught in said land of limbo, especially if I inferred correctly that Mazda knows some dealers stink. If that's the case I think MNAO should be advocating for their owners, rather than accepting the decision of the dealerships w/o any real attempt at diagnosing the problem on their own.

I would like to see the "warranty denied" issue discussed in more concrete terms, if you could please Jeremy. And perhaps some discussion about the state of a warranty system that allows "an independent business" the power to void a Mazda warranty.

I do love my 8, and have been trouble free for 40k, with the only issue being the taillight condensation that was fixed under warranty. But even with this minor issue the dealership I used jerked me around a bit by telling me I had to come back when "the tech who takes pictures was working", then following that BS up by NOT taking any pictures when I came back another day. I understand that Mazda can't be expected to police the large number of dealerships across the country, but I think it's fair to expect MNAO to side with an owner unless a dealership shows some proof of why a warranty should be voided, rather than just claiming some aftermarket part, "abuse", or other factor caused the problem w/o any real diagnostic evidence, which seems to be the case more often than not.

Absolutely.

I hope Mr. Barnes can clarify this issue. I know, from past experience, that other automakers have company designated 'troubleshooters' or 'techs' that literally roam from region to region, and dealership to dealership, and make the call on whether a mechanical problem is one that is covered by the manufacturer's warranty, whenever the problem is a complex one.

I do not see why or how Mazda could empower 'independently owned' and 'independently operated' Mazda dealerships to have the end all/be all decision making authority on whether a mechanical problem is covered by Mazda's warranty.

Hopefully, some clarification on this issue can be provided by Mr. Barnes.

neit_jnf 06-07-2008 10:19 PM

Does the warranty cover Plaza Motors Corporation Mazda of Puerto Rico?

olddragger 06-07-2008 10:34 PM

the only reason did this is because it made sense financially speaking---you figure it out!
olddragger

New Yorker 06-08-2008 12:00 AM

Pre-mixing finally put to rest.
 

Originally Posted by jeremyB (Post 2498270)
It should not be necessary to pre-mix at all -- you have a sophisticated metering pump on the engine that injects a precise amount of oil into the engine.

Thank you, Jeremy, for finally setting the record straight on pre-mixing. It was long a subject of great debate, generating one of the longest threads here; a thread that continues to this very day. (Oops… did I say "debate"? It was never a debate. Unless you consider "Idemitsu vs. Marvel Mystery Oil" or "4-oz vs. 6-oz." a debate. If there were 1,000 posts, maybe 9 of them questioned the need to pre-mix.)

Jeremy, you do realize that, had you endorsed pre-mixing, many here would be quoting your words as confirmation of the usefulness of their quaint pre-fueling ritual. Of course, now that you've said pre-mixing isn't necessary, those same people will point to your words as proof that you're not allowed to tell the truth about pre-mixing. And so goes logic in the bizarro world of RX8Club.com.

Thankfully, it's a moot point; only a tiny handful of RX-8 owners will ever premix or, for that matter, even hear the word "premix" uttered in their lifetime.


(Sorry guys, couldn't resist. Is pre-mixing helpful? Maybe it is. Then again, maybe it isn't. ;))

robrecht 06-08-2008 07:25 AM

Funny, how you seem to completely miss the point.

Rotr8 06-08-2008 08:52 AM


Originally Posted by New Yorker (Post 2499983)
Thank you, Jeremy, for finally setting the record straight on pre-mixing. It was long a subject of great debate, generating one of the longest threads here; a thread that continues to this very day. (Oops… did I say "debate"? It was never a debate. Unless you consider "Idemitsu vs. Marvel Mystery Oil" or "4-oz vs. 6-oz." a debate. If there were 1,000 posts, maybe 9 of them questioned the need to pre-mix.)

Jeremy, you do realize that, had you endorsed pre-mixing, many here would be quoting your words as confirmation of the usefulness of their quaint pre-fueling ritual. Of course, now that you've said pre-mixing isn't necessary, those same people will point to your words as proof that you're not allowed to tell the truth about pre-mixing. And so goes logic in the bizarro world of RX8Club.com.

Thankfully, it's a moot point; only a tiny handful of RX-8 owners will ever premix or, for that matter, even hear the word "premix" uttered in their lifetime.


(Sorry guys, couldn't resist. Is pre-mixing helpful? Maybe it is. Then again, maybe it isn't. ;))

wow, ^^^^completely oblivious to Mr.Barnes position. You do realize that he is obligated to say exactly what he did. His job would be in serious jeopardy if he said anything that contradicts the recomendations made by Mazda Corp. Also, Mr.Barnes, with all due respect, appeasing us that he's a gear head too, I'm sure he is, but I doubt that his experience with a Rotary engine would hold a candles flame against the building and rebuilding experience of RG, or Paul and Rick of Mazmart. With that being said, a big thanks to Mr.Barnes the effort to spend some of his time wth us is greatly appreciated...

Huey52 06-08-2008 09:12 AM

Got my warranty extension CD/paperwork in the mail yesterday. Very nice! :)

New Yorker 06-08-2008 09:27 AM

I guess, until someone actually sits down and talks—off the record—with the Mazda designers/engineers who work on the rotary, we won't have definitive answers about 5W-20 vs 30, synthetic oil, and pre-mix.

I'd also like to know actually what percentage of Renesis engines have been replaced.

robrecht 06-08-2008 09:48 AM


Originally Posted by New Yorker (Post 2500175)
I guess, until someone actually sits down and talks—off the record—with the Mazda designers/engineers who work on the rotary, we won't have definitive answers about 5W-20 vs 30, synthetic oil, and pre-mix.

I've seen rotarygod report here on some of his conversations about synthetic oil. Do a seach and read.

Originally Posted by New Yorker (Post 2500175)
I'd also like to know actually what percentage of Renesis engines have been replaced.

Don't think you'll hear that from Mazda. Would you also be interested in how many rotaries that have been rebuilt by non-Mazda professionals? Their perspective is very enlightening.

fahrfegneugen 06-08-2008 02:47 PM

It's not like they have forbidden high grade oils, you as the owner still have to use good judgement and think for yourself. Yes, you should be able to trust their judgement being that they designed the engine and I think that is what is sketchy in this situation. But there is no danger in doing what you think is reasonable and informed and they will not punish you for being reasonable and being of due diligence in maintaining your engine.

So if you don't like 5w-20, great, use a higher grade, I do. Mazda has determined for it's own reasons that 5w-20 is better, but I can determine on my own that it needs something more.

ODDDOOD 06-09-2008 09:08 AM

It would have been awesome if JeremyB just posted a reply that said...


"Search you newbieS!!!"
I would probably still be laughing. I look forward to hearing/reading more replys by him in the future. I do not look forward to dealing with MAZDA about soon to be transmission prolems.

DailyDriver2k5 06-09-2008 11:26 AM


Originally Posted by ODDDOOD (Post 2501297)
It would have been awesome if JeremyB just posted a reply that said...



I would probably still be laughing. I look forward to hearing/reading more replys by him in the future. I do not look forward to dealing with MAZDA about soon to be transmission prolems.

I got my Kit last Thursday and was shocked to see that the transmissions issues wasn't covered. With more than half the owners with grinding issues, failing syncros, etc, you would think Mazda would have upped the warranty on the tranny. :icon_no2:

I appreciate the extra insurance on the rotary Mazda, but how about the tranny?!Hopefully this is in the works as well.:uhh:

9krpmrx8 06-09-2008 11:47 AM

Hell the tranny is the only major component in my car not to have issues (knocks on wood)

Delmeister 06-09-2008 05:57 PM


Originally Posted by New Yorker (Post 2499983)
Thank you, Jeremy, for finally setting the record straight on pre-mixing. It was long a subject of great debate, generating one of the longest threads here; a thread that continues to this very day. (Oops… did I say "debate"? It was never a debate. Unless you consider "Idemitsu vs. Marvel Mystery Oil" or "4-oz vs. 6-oz." a debate. If there were 1,000 posts, maybe 9 of them questioned the need to pre-mix.)

Jeremy, you do realize that, had you endorsed pre-mixing, many here would be quoting your words as confirmation of the usefulness of their quaint pre-fueling ritual. Of course, now that you've said pre-mixing isn't necessary, those same people will point to your words as proof that you're not allowed to tell the truth about pre-mixing. And so goes logic in the bizarro world of RX8Club.com.

Thankfully, it's a moot point; only a tiny handful of RX-8 owners will ever premix or, for that matter, even hear the word "premix" uttered in their lifetime.


(Sorry guys, couldn't resist. Is pre-mixing helpful? Maybe it is. Then again, maybe it isn't. ;))

I like your style man---seriously.

BoosTED 06-09-2008 09:53 PM

I was surprised as well when I opened the package from Mazda.

:cool:

100,000 mile 8 year on the engine even made my wife smile. :D:

RotoRocket 06-09-2008 11:01 PM


Originally Posted by Footman (Post 2499842)
1) Why are North American models recommending 5W20 and the rest of the world recommending 5W30 when the exact same engine is used?

a) Are there different oil seals being used for North American engines vs. the rest of the world?
b) The Renesis engine by design can use EITHER 5W20 or 5W30 with negligible failure rates, and the decision to recommend 5W20 in North American is strictly to meet CAFE requirements?


This is the one question, of all, that I'd most like a direct answer to, if Mr. Barnes would be so inclined to indulge us.

The answers on pre-mixing (not necessary) and using synthetic oil (not approved) were directly and succinctly answered.

I'd love to know why in North America, 5W-20 is specified, while 5W-30 is specified almost everyplace else.

Thanks in advance.

Nubo 06-09-2008 11:30 PM


Originally Posted by RotoRocket (Post 2502609)
This is the one question, of all, that I'd most like a direct answer to, if Mr. Barnes would be so inclined to indulge us.

The answers on pre-mixing (not necessary) and using synthetic oil (not approved) were directly and succinctly answered.

Well, for me the answer perpetuates the schizophrenic approach that Mazda takes towards the synthetic oil issue. Jeremy himself says follow the manual, then says "dino only". My manual says nothing about synthetic oil. What I asked for was a definitive answer on whether synthetic would void the warranty. A yes or no answer would have qualified as succinct. The answer given, in addition to not answering the question, was self-contradictory. That is neither direct nor succinct. Not that I blame Jeremy at all. The problem lies with Mazda and I hardly expect him to buck the corporate line or offer anything of substance that hasn't already been vetted by them for public consumption in other venues. It's a noble gesture, but don't expect anything of substance.

swoope 06-09-2008 11:41 PM

and the manual does give options for other weights. that will work in all climates..

i am still interested in the coverage with the early remans?

but i am so glad mazda stepped up to the plate on this.

beers :beer:

xsnipersgox 06-10-2008 12:13 AM

i don't think the us manual has anything other than 5w-20 across all temperature recommended.

and i wonder if he even is gonna come back.. he has only posted once

CyberPitz 06-10-2008 12:29 AM


Originally Posted by xsnipersgox (Post 2502705)
i don't think the us manual has anything other than 5w-20 across all temperature recommended.

and i wonder if he even is gonna come back.. he has only posted once

You guys scared him away! :lol:

swoope 06-10-2008 12:48 AM


Originally Posted by xsnipersgox (Post 2502705)
i don't think the us manual has anything other than 5w-20 across all temperature recommended.

and i wonder if he even is gonna come back.. he has only posted once

my 04 manual does.

beers :beer:


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