why no mazdaspeed rx8!?
 

Is anyone else bitter about the fact that mazda decided to make a "mazdaspeed' model of the 3,6 and miata but not the 8?? i know i sure am. Why couldnt my rx8 come with a factory mazda turbo with 300hp? the only gripe anyone ever seems to have with performance is that theres no real punch with the 8 and for the most part i'd have to agree. I've just alway wondered why mazda never made one and if anyone else was thinking the same thing.

Nobody ever thought of that... not even Mazda :)

+1

I wouldn't say bitter exactly but disappointed for sure

this has been discussed a few times.
IIRC, Mazda did consider a supercharged MS RX8 for a 2005 model. I'll have a search around and post a link

here are a few. Not the particular thread I was looking for, but you get the idea...
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-media-news-11/motor-trend-eludes-supercharged-mazdaspeed-rx-8-a-20659/
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/unofficial-us-mazdaspeed-supercharged-rx8-43727/

i really didnt think i'd be the first person to bring this up. i just want people to be pissed with me. i dont have 7k to spend on a turbo/supercharger so it woulda been pretty nice if Mazda had been bright enough to make one for me. plus to gain any power with this thing is damn near impossible without spending a ton of money. not that i dont love my 8, it just woulda been really nice if i coulda have bought this car and then got a chip flash like my brother did in his 04 STI and got 365hp just like that. also thatd be a nice way to shut all the rotary haters up.

no, that wouldn't shut them up. That's wishful thinking.

Reliability concerns.

i guess im just a "glass half full" kind of guy. but stil! i'd like to make those hondas look like they're in reverse! not just beating them by a couple feet.

well since we already have those, whats one more thing to worry about?? haha jk tho. i've never had a problem with my 8...((knocks on wood))

Well, it's not only the reputation but the costs involved.

They would have the goal of making a moderately reliable design that makes relatively consistent power that also gets an acceptable/marketable level of fuel economy and meets emissions. After that, they'd have to decide if they could accomplish that with a reasonable price and consider if the potential for profit is there when any warranty work is factored in as well.

So even if they had put some serious development time, it might have been safer to abandon the project rather than to move forward and produce it.

Just put the Mazdaspeed body kit and its a Mazdaspeed. :D:

Exactly what 8 maniac said.

Also think, a true Mazdaspeed edition would've costed more, it would've been approaching, if not, over $40k new. (I believe the new Spirit R coming out in Japan, when converted from yes is just over $41k, but I could be wrong. And it's not much different than a normal R3 it seems, other than being an even more limited edition.)

It'd be real nice, but again, as with everything else said, as well as the price would've been upped as well...

You don't think a Mazdaspeed version would cost more than what we all paid for our current RX-8's?

well of course it would have cost more but i have a 2008 40th that had 11k miles on it. paid 24,000...i think i could have gotten an older model for cheaper or the same even if it had a factory turbo. example: my brother's 2004 subaru sti had 30k miles on it when he got it and he paid 20,000. the sti would be a perfect car to compare to an rx8 with a higher hp, suspension and appearance than the other models. its like the difference between the wrx and the sti only itd be the rx8 and the mazdaspeed rx8....and dont people with turbos and sc's claim to get the same or better gas mileage?? and how much could forced induction really affect the emissions of the exhaust? idk. i'm just a dreamer.

ALSO: the way every performance shop is around here, i think that a factory turbo/sc would really be safer and more cost effective than an aftermarket. there are so many things that go into installing a turbo/sc that can go wrong and do we really trust with our touchy rotaries? so the bills for install, tunes and fixing everything that might go wrong has to be more expensive than a few more grand(my guess is 5k) from the factory.

isnt it a bit too late since they stopped selling?
also I never remembered there was a mazdaspeed rx7 either but there was a mazdaspeed protege.
I guess mazdaspeed is more like a high power version of the family car.
RX's are already sportscar so theres no reason to make a mazdaspeed version.

It would definitely affect the market of able and willing buyers, but it could at least be financed with the price of the car instead of having to be paid via credit card or straight up cash. Monthly payments would be much easier for some people to manage.

I'm not sure I would agree with that. A lot of stock turbo cars have a decent list of "reliability mods" that are highly recommended. The second you start to do aftermarket modifications, you'll see even more weak points that need to be dealt with in order to maintain reliability. A huge difference will also be the tune. A stock turbo car would have to use a safe and consistent tune that can be applied to every car produced. That means it will be a more conservative tune than what will often be used with an aftermarket turbo kit. If you're installing a turbo kit, you'll probably have a more aggressive tune than a stock tune, even if you have a "conservative" custom tune.

Also, I forgot to mention another complication. Heat is significant reason for some of the reliability issues. Turbos will naturally create more heat. Mazda would have to ensure there is proper compensation for the extra heat generated.

A lot of these details are easier to deal with on a single car, rather than having to find a cost effective way to safely account for the variability of each and every car produced.

I wouldn't quite use that logic. The protege was the first consumer vehicle mazda offered with the MS name and that was after the production of the 7 had ended. Plus, they offered a mazdaspeed MX-5, and I don't think that fits the family car category. Since they hadn't made the decision to produce MS vehicles during the time of the RX-7, I wouldn't say that's a reason to rule out a MS version of other rotary vehicles they produce.

At the end of the day, MS is just a name... people just wanted to see an even better performing vehicle than the normal RX-8, and the R3 package definitely wasn't enough to satisfy those desires.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think MS in Japan still carries aero parts for the 7, while MS completely dropped the 8.

I agree a turbo powered rotary Mazdaspeed RX8 would definitely have my attention and it would have addressed one or two of the reasons I bailed on the Rx8, but according to Mazda they only sold 664 RX8s this year. Demand has just about completely evaporated for the beloved Wankel...:scratchhe
http://autos.yahoo.com/news/r-i-p--t...12.html?page=2

Too many heat issues and blown engines. Turbos compound the problem. Mazda learned from the rx7 turbo. Besides it would be cost prohibiting for a car that already sells for 32k in gt form. Out of reach for most. Besides it already is speedy little sports car. Mazdaspeed 3 and 6s don't have a whole lot over it other than torque off the line. There are lots of aftermarket 300 hp turbos if you want to spend another $8k on your rx8.

after turbo, cooling mods, MS springs, shocks, sways, struts, body kit, etc the cost would be too high...think $45-50K
not too mention less realiable which would raise warranty claims even more
sounds good in theory but, not really feasible :)

Because the Mazdaspeed Rx8 is what the people deserve but not the one it needs right now...

TNC FTW!

OP- a turbo charged version from factory would have cost the extra $7-10K you said you don't have now do do it with aftermarket parts. I agree with other posters - the price tag on a car like that would have been close - if not beyond - the $40K range brand new.

So at the end everything seems relative:sad:

If you have the money - meaning, at least 10 grand - I am sure a good rotary tuner can do a good job in bringing your car to the next level as many have done here - probably better than a factory set up would be. (Of course, there are lots of trial and error stories, but many success stories as well. Look at the "major horsepower" folder here on the forums)

Point is, whether you paid the money for a turbo installed at the factory for a "Mazdaspeed" version(if that was an option) or aftermarket...you still needed the money!

And it doesn't sound like you have it, LOL.

There was a Mazdaspeed RX-8 in Japan. I'm not sure if it hit anywhere else but there was one in japan then the Mazdaspeed RX8 Ver2 as well. The upgrades included suspension, body kit, brake pads and also a tuned PCM. There was an option for the the MS to have a full roll cage in it as well. I'm sure there was a few more things that were added, seats and all but I'm not too sure about that. Also, with a FI RX8, problem would be reliability, low MPG and cost. The RX8 is tuned well as an NA and relatively reliable. Add FI, you lose MPG and reliability and on top of that, for a factory car, how large will the gain actually be? 5-10% just to keep it somewhat reliable? We live in a different age now where MPG is a big deal and emissions, things are not like it used to be back before 2000 sadly enough :(

There was no MS RX7 but they did have many parts for them including wheels, suspension, body kit and so on.

Just my two cents.

what my brother-in-law told me was that it was the turbo that killed his 7.

No. You can see from the thread that people here are more realistic than you are.

What your brother did says: "Subaru is really terrible at getting power from their cars. They just kinda half-ass it, and it's REALLY easy to find improvement points."

Unlike Mazda, who milked the hell out of this 1.3 liter engine, dialed the ECU back very slightly, and added a cat to meet emissions compliance. If Subaru had milked the STI's engine for all it had, then improvements on the STI would be crazy expensive too mod as well.

You obviously haven't actually investigated how the turbo'ing of the other Mazdas turned out. Numbers on paper, not much more. The Speed3 and Speed6 have significant oil seal and surge problems (did you know you can take a brand new stock Speed3, put it in 6th gear @ ~40mph, and punch the gas and listen to the turbo seal blow out?). The Mazdaspeed Miata was by far the heaviest Miata ever made, and the turbo system was remarkably underpowered and underefficient.

Mazda should generally stay away from turbocharging IMO :) Their track record is worse than it appears on the surface (contrary to rotary, which appears worse than it is)

My Mom's 4th cousin (5 times removed) told his cow something about my Dad's brother's neighbor's co-worker's mistress's hooker friend that made my boss's son's classmate decide to change the color of his boxer shorts.

Hey, I heard about that, too...

See! It's fact. Statistically significant, and can form the basis of any legal or scientific arguement.

[QUOTE=RIWWP;4116177]No. You can see from the thread that people here are more realistic than you are.



What your brother did says: "Subaru is really terrible at getting power from their cars. They just kinda half-ass it, and it's REALLY easy to find improvement points."

Unlike Mazda, who milked the hell out of this 1.3 liter engine, dialed the ECU back very slightly, and added a cat to meet emissions compliance. If Subaru had milked the STI's engine for all it had, then improvements on the STI would be crazy expensive too mod as well.



You obviously haven't actually investigated how the turbo'ing of the other Mazdas turned out. Numbers on paper, not much more. The Speed3 and Speed6 have significant oil seal and surge problems (did you know you can take a brand new stock Speed3, put it in 6th gear @ ~40mph, and punch the gas and listen to the turbo seal blow out?). The Mazdaspeed Miata was by far the heaviest Miata ever made, and the turbo system was remarkably underpowered and underefficient.

Mazda should generally stay away from turbocharging IMO :) Their track record is worse than it appears on the surface (contrary to rotary, which appears worse than it is)


i mean you make some good points but i really dont think that subaru is "terrible at getting power from their cars" i think that a stock 365hp/tq might scare people away or put that car in a new relm. and had they "milked everything out of their engine" it would be a 500hp death machine and who would seriously need to add any power to that? i love my 8 but it's really nowhere near that sti. sure the 8 handles beautifully and looks amazing and is a nice comfy ride, but the sti handles just as good, embarrasses people it should embarrass due to its "sports car" class and sounds as good as a rotary although theyre very dif. i just wish that Mazda could have taken the extra step in making the 8 go from great to incredible. also im an extremely realistic person. i really just wanted to see if anyone had any ideas as to why mazda never made one and i found more than one answer.

Both of these statements are factually inaccurate.

You have to take each car near the limit to determine which is better, but the STI will fall short much much faster. The STI is also not, in any stretch of the imagination, a "sports car". "Hot hatch" is closer, or "sports sedan". Not at all a sports car.

And he's a proven rotary expert?

The turbo might have contributed to some of the issues, but it shouldn't have been the primary cause of failure. It probably had a lot to do with heat issues, especially if it was modified and didn't have properly upgraded cooling modifications.

There are 2 ways to look at the power/potential thing. Mazda did a great job of getting as much power out of the engine as possible. That also means that it's almost at it's limit without significant modification. On the other hand, Subaru could be credited for setting goals and producing an engine that's able to surpass their goals without being near it's limit. Getting most of the potential out of an engine is great (assuming it's not at the cost of reliability) as long as you have no plans of modifying for performance purposes. If you want to improve the performance, it's nice to start with a platform that isn't already near the limit. I'd rather have a company overshoot their goal when designing the engine.

I'll admit that I was slightly disappointed in the RX-8 for that reason. I enjoy modifying things, and with cars I tend to favor power modifications a bit more. This was especially true for the RX-8, since it's already such a great car when it comes to handling. With a brand new car, it's hard to predict the future ability to modify a car, but with an established car I will definitely take the ability to modify it into consideration when choosing between different cars.

The key place where the RX-8 will shine is the overall feel. The STi just doesn't compare to the 8 in that regard. Regardless of what you decide to call the STi, it is definitely a performance car and it does perform well. It can absolutely compete with the 8. It's not like the the STi is suddenly out classed when both cars are pushed hard.

wow! so this thread is for rotary experts only? and i can't even post based on what i was told.
it was heavily modified 7 and participated in number of modified auto shows.
may be i shouldn't have used the word "killed" since he revived it before selling it.

This thread is for anyone who is interested in discussing the topic.
All you did was offer some 3rd hand knowledge, and you were corrected :)

^ I guess I'm just curious what your purpose of commenting was. Were you looking for validation of that statement? If not, I can only assume you were stating it as if his comment had some validity.

People are just reacting because that statement is a little inaccurate and misleading. Turbos can help contribute to more stress on an engine, but so many things can be involved in the actual failure of an engine that it's a little misleading to just say it was the turbo.

It's not that it's for rotary experts, it's just that "My brother/friend/uncle/etc said" stuff holds no water when trying to support one side of an argument. It happens a lot here and there is a lot of misinformation floating around because of it.

For the sake of being on topic, this thread should have been started about 7 years ago. Wait a minute, it was, many times over the years.

I can not be pissed with you OP, as it's over and done with. Mazda simply had nothing to gain by producing an MS 8 for the states. I can't say that i would have bought one if available, just like i would never buy a MS miata. Why spend more money on less when i can buy less and make it more, for less cost?

milkis, it wasn't the turbo that killed your brother in law's 7, it was your brother in law...Probably.

A turbo 7 did have more maintanance that had to be done and more mods that should have been done from factory but if you bought a brand new FD today and you took care of it, it would probably last you a very long time.

:hahano:
guess i can't argue with someone who still owns one.

Hahaha. The problem with owning such an old car is that people forget that the small parts inside have to be replaced. I bet if your brother in law did that and stayed on top of his maintanance he'd be ok. It's funny, I did almost a full refresh of everything outside of the short block except one thing and now that one thing is haunting me.

You answered your own question.

Mazda got just about everything they could out of the Rennie while still maintained a minimum level of reliability and fuel economy while meeting emmissions standards.

People have to admit, 230 hp out of a naturaly aspirated 1.3L engine is pretty impressive.

Why the assumption that because it is Mazdaspeed that it would/should have a turbo when the official Mazdaspeed RX8 race cars don't even run a turbo? If a publicly available Mazdaspeed RX8 did come available I would much prefer that it came with the official 20B instead of a turbo. Just my .02.

whatchu talkin bout willis... my ms rx8 has turbo........along with a bunch of other members :lol:

For the cost of picking up a greddy kit these days its not that crazy expensive to do.... if they did make an ms version for the market and it was FI it would be expensive. look at the costs of the r3 (and thats NA).

yea because that would be MUCH cheaper :lol:

Technically, there were 2.
2003 (Japan) Mazdaspeed. 300 cars, slightly tuned ECU and MS trim packages.
2004 (Japan) Mazdaspeed Version II, only 300 produced, same as before with different colors.

idk man. have you ever driven an sti? its most definitely a sports car. the 04 didnt even come with a stereo because they wanted it to be as lightweight and as much like the rally car as possible. and no offense to anyone on here or the 8 because i love mine, the STI is better than the 8 as far as a car that performs. the 8 can keep up on a track but all it does is keep up. it just doesnt have the power to pass a car like that if it hits a straight. i'll say it one more time to be clear,I LOVE MY 8, it just doesnt have the power that i think it DESERVES. and ya i know mazda did what they could and its a 1.3 and NA and what not but it just barely falls short for me personally because with all that work that they did they could only get to 232hp and as much torque as a hotwheels.
so far the best idea ive heard with this discussion is a mazdaspeed with the 20b. now that woulda been worth the extra money for sure and certainly would have had enough power to satisfy me.....for awhile anyways haha
i do appreciate the info and discussion so thank you everyone for the feedback.

I wish for a lot of things.
I know you love your 8, but there's no need to be upset because they didn't come out with FI model.
If it bothers you so much, add a turbo/supercharger. It's feasible for a decent price. Lot's of build threads to follow. Just do it right the first time.
You'll get more power with an aftermarket turbo, than you would with a factory one, anyways.

im not really upset. more intrigued as to "why not?" mostly because i just think it would have been super awesome...as to the cost of a turbo, what do you think it would cost? i have about 5k saved but i dont feel like thats enough to cover everything.

Yes I have driven one. It doesn't change the fact that the STI is NOT a sports car. I'm not decrying it's performance capability, but just because it has performance doesn't make it a sports car. "Sports car" is a type, not a performance mark. Take a look at the Bentley Brooklands. 530hp 774tq RWD 4 door sedan. Sports car? It beats the STI silly right? (well, other than the fact that it's 5,900lbs, making it only a bit faster 0-60 than the 8)

*hint, I'm just trying to point out the flaw in your thinking*

There are lots of people that insist the RX-8 isn't even a sports car, because of it's rear doors / rear seats.


You are halfway to where you should be sitting at before you begin to buy parts. Take advantage of the time spent saving to also work on accumulating knowledge of all the issues people face. That may save you even more money in the long run.

looking at close to 10K to go FI the right way
plus money for an extra engine once that one goes :lol:

You either want a real race car or you don't. You either want a cheap car or you don't. If you want both you get a Mazdaspeed 3...if you don't you get a Mazdaspeed RX8. The Mazdaspeed 3 is the street version of the Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge racing Mazdaspeed 3...so...in theory...the Mazdaspeed RX8 should be the street version of the Grand-am Racing Mazdaspeed RX8. If that happens to mean that I have to pay $45K instead of $32K...that's the price I pay for having a street version of a real racecar.