Why this car is so much fun
 

1. Going around the big roundabout in downtown Hollywood (FL) with all 4 tires slipping, tail hanging out, bow pointed into the turn.

2. Stuffing a 70 pound tube amp, a 30 pound preamp, a CDPlayer, a power distro box and a case of CDs in the trunk, plus 2 sixpacks of beer and 1/2 case of bordeaux, then stuffing two huge Klipsch Fortes in the rear seats.. and still drives with the trunk shut (no redneck trunk-locking devices needed) and the windows rolled up. Plus you look pimp when you get to the party yo, not like some redneck with twine holding our shite together.

3. After discovering a new route to work involving 4 dollars toll each day, finally hearing your engine siiiiinnnng coming out of tollbooths, and cruising at 90.. feels like an airplane. While the poor schleps in I-95 creep along in 2nd gear. Drinking a latte and visualizing, prioritizing and conceptualizing on the phone, no doubt. It is then that I remember, while I'm cruising along at illegal speeds, that this is what driving once felt like, when there were less cars and less assholes on the road.

4. Watching the sunlight dance on the hood's rotary design.

5. The chirruping idle bouncing off the drive-through, waiting for my b-fast. The idle no boinger can ever, ever duplicate.

6. The completely nonplussed way it can pass traffic, say, going 70.. go into left lane, depress pedal, go past the guy who was in front of you, go right, no fuss, no muss, no hystrionics. Want to pass with way more snap? Double-clutched, rev-matched 2 or 3 cog downshift.. get engine to 6 or 7k rpm.. floor it.. zoom zoom, indeed. Headlights become pinpricks, then memories.

7. The way the strakes highlight the lines of the car, giving it a certain old-school sense of bling. Speelines, as it were, like in cart00ns. Something rarely seen today.. style.

8. Radio off, windows down, roof open, sun setting, car following the (sadly) gentle curves of A1A on a Sunday.

9. Ferrari drivers give *you* the thumbs up. You give 'em the old "spin 'er up" hand signal and point to your ear -- they oblige -- Concerto for V-12 and Two Rotors.

10. The way Black Cherry explodes when sunlight hits it.

11. The feeling one gets, looking back at her after locking up, walking away, that people in this world had, for the most part, forgotten how to make cars like this. For the longest time, all that was available to the person of moderate means was.. soapbars, boxes and jelly beans, devoid of character, of soul, of fire. Then you realize...

12. You get to drive her again tomorrow morning :mdrmed:

direct response to the other thread i assume
somehow i doubt that ever happens :|

These are all poetic, and so is the car. Brought a smile to my face :)

Has happened to me here, even in the Miata. Some of those ferraris are even driven by non stuffed-shirt- rich-assholes. Just regular folk who love cars. :)

One of 'em was a silver 365 GTB. I just about cracked my neck on the doubletake. At first I had thought it was a 240Z : :o: Then I heared six twinchokes sucking in air. That's no Z. :worship:

Well said, BUT triple synchros remove the need to double-clutch---thats just being a showoff and wasting shifting time.

Uhhh, did you see Fast and the Furious? If Dom says you should double clutch, you should.

word

Um..

Going from 6th to 3rd at 70 is a really bad time to not be double-clutching. You'll likely grenade something. Just my two cents, mind you.. your car, your gearbox, your cash. Something that bad will not be covered under warranty.

Synchros are not meant to deal with repeated downshifting. (ask any old Alfa driver about the 2nd and 3rd gear synchros).

It's not showing off. It's simply reducing wear and tear on the box and clutch to negligible levels. When I trade or sell, hopefully 200,000 miles from now, that car will still have the original clutch, and I'll have the 1500 bucks or whatever it takes to fix it still in my pocket.

And lastly... once you get the hang of it, and become proficient at it.. it's faster to do it blipped and matched than just ramming the shifter into the next lower gear.

You're gonna blow something up, man.. lemme guess.. you do clutch dumps too? To get the times everyone loves to brag about? Y'know.. spin it to 6000 or 7000, drop the clutch?

That'll break your pilot and / or throwout bearing. Maybe not now, not this month or next, nor this year.. but eventually that bearing will get back at you for all the clutch dumps. That one I learned with my Miata. And with my Rx7. Won't make same mistake with this one. She's too pretty. :D:

There's no need to beat up the car to get her to perform. None.

Sorry if I seem harsh, but just can't belive what I read in your post. No offense meant, okkay?

I think you're confusing double clutching with rev matching.

Also, this thread isn't nearly as much fun as the kinda sorta fun thread so I find the title misleading.

agreed, double clutching isn't just a blip-shift...

The car's fun, I never advertised the thread. NO REFUND FOR YOU!

As for confusion, clutch in, gear out, clutch out, gas blip or two, clutch in, gear in clutch out, right foot all the way down. That'd be a double-clutched rev-match'd downshift, ne?

One Double-clutched, rev-matched downshift to go!

Would you like a set of plug wires wit dat?

I wish I knew how to drive a manual. I mean, I want to be cool, but all this rev-matching, throwout bearing, throttle blip, double clutch, $1500 repair fee crap is just too much. I mean, I barely make it home from work without maiming myself or bystanders. How the hell am I deal with that and try and shift myself?

I should learn, but damn, I am really lazy.

That's 100%, completely, totally, absolutely, not needed. In a car with synchros there's no need for all that and you're just doing more harm than good when compared to a properly rev matched downshift.

Then enlighten me. How's a properly rev matched downshift go? Now, think about the scenario: I'm doing 70 in top gear. I have 2 choices -- to 4th, or to 3rd. If I mess up going into 4th is not too bad.. due to gearing, if I screw up 6 to 3 at 70, I'm gonna be picking up pieces of gearbox for the next few hundred yards. So given that scenario, how'd a properly executed rev-matched downshift go?

(No, really, I"m asking for real. I learned on a series 1 xke with a crashbox! Synchros are a luxury to me.)

BTW, the plug wires are getting cold. You want 'em or what?

Been meaning to tell you..

domo-kun is the shiznit. :D:

I don't understand. If you downshift from 6-3 at that speed what happens when you do the double cluctch business? What about if you don't? Don't people occasionaly shift into the wrong gear? Won't the rev limiter thing kick in and everything be square? Enlighten me.

You can double clutch it or you can rev match it, if you dont do either and go 6 to 3 you'll either damage the tranny or recieve a BIG jolt..

I tend to double clutch out of habit, i can't get a smooth rev-matched shift most of the time.
::(

I always double-clutch. Except when I heel and toe. I got use to it. But i've never gone from 6th to 3rd.

Hangon, trying to remember my own damn car. OK, 70 to 3rd should be OK, but just so. You'll have 2000 more twists to play with. THin but usable, great for extra oomph.

There goes my little scenario. You broke it!

To do what I had envisioned (picking up gearbox pieces along the side of the road) at 70.. you'd need to land in 2nd. As soon as that clutch bites.. no rev limiter will save you. The force from the gearbox will be enough to send that engine past 10,000. Which it may survive. Or it may not. The limiter *will* cut the engine -- but the wheels will continue to spin the engine, through the gearbox.

But I don't wanna find out what the ultimate rev limit on this engine is. Not with my lump anyway ;o)

Damn. All this car talk's made me hungry (!) and made me want to see a car flick..hmm.. gumball rally will do.

Before getting into any of this double clutch stuff, ask yourself why you're downshifting in the first place...... to get more power out of the engine. Then go look at a dyno and see the power curve, and how flat and lovely it is for this car.

You'd be far better off to shift into 4th and just step on it, than shift into 3rd with your fancy footwork and get an extra 5hp from it. DD'ing was invented waaaay back in the days of British roadsters which were woefully underpowered and needed it, in order to squeeze as much as possible from the engine. Nowadays with virtually flat power bands, it is simply not necessary, especially on highways with speed limits.

It's a pity you felt the need to show off and be a snob about it, because the other stuff you wrote was quite poetic and right on the money.

from 6th to 4th still requrires a rev match.. but it's MUCH faster in in 3rd.. If you HAVE to pass that guy cruising next to you at 80mph in a heartbeat..

*siiiigh*

6-4 is my preferred way of doing it, if I have to downshift (I prefer not to, actually, to pull of a leisurely pass.) But wether it is 6-4, or 6-3, or 2-1, or whatever, I tend to do it the same way every time, because that's the way the car feels happiest.

To me, the car (any car, really) doesn't feel happy with me ramming the shifter from one gear to the next lower gear letting the synchros handle it. It feels like it's gonna break. I don't like the feeling, so I fall back on what I was taught.

As to speed limits... this is South Florida. You'll be roadkill. And we have no torque anyway. :D: <--- NOTE -- supposed to be a humorous tounge-in-cheek at the 'no power' crowd. I guess now we need disclaimers in our posts for humor.

I wasn't intending to be a snob, okkay? Were I a snob I'd wear a folex and drive a Benz and laugh at mazdas, but I don't. Have you read how many folks in this very forum have lunched their gearboxes? Ever sat to think why? Maybe they were asking too much of the box. The way I do it, the car's happy, I'm happy, my wallet's happy, but my service manager is miserable 'cause all he sees my car for is oil changes.

ALP, do you even have one of these? Was thinking about what you said, and it struck me that you perhaps think the 8 is like a v8 or something. This car absolutely has to be spanked without mercy to get it to boogie, and that is where the fun is. Because you have to flog it. It loves it. It's super, buttery-smooth doing it.

It is no different than those archaic, underpowered British cars of the 50's and 60's. And that's why those old rusbucket rolling blackouts oilburners were sooooo much fun! You *had* to flog 'em.

Since you're gonna bring out a dyno chart, okkay. Well, let's see -- yup, flat torque allright. Flat as a ruler, almost.

But damn, what's that?! The HP is flat -- but not RPM wise. It's almost ruler flat, but it's almost a straight line from 0 to the redline. Oh wow. Now we gotta shift if we want power to the wheels. *that* is where the smooth power delivery vs. a torquemonster's power delivery comes from. NOT the flat torque. There's no spike in either trace, so it's smoooooth sailing under any pedal pressure.

You call me a snob. I'll say this in return:

Numbers mean squat. When it comes down to it, numbers mean squat. Real car guys know that, real hi-fi guys know that, real camera guys know that, real aircraft people know that. It's all down to how it works, and how it feels while it's doing so.

So I'll say this: Those who spew numbers and charts and timeslips and magazine 1/4 mile tests are the snobs. They get a little info from the web or from some rag, and think it's gospel.

Then they post it here, where others pick up on it, and all of a sudden this is the worst car evah.

Your dyno chart wasn't of much use, was it? *crumple* *toss*

:rolleyes:

I find rev matching much easier and faster to do than double-clutching. I can't really describe it, but it is so simple for me to blip the throttle when going from 6th into 3rd. Maybe all my motorcycle track time has my head setup for knowing what RPM my engine needs to be in for downshifting. But yeh, to each their own. I was just saying that double-clutching is not needed with modern synchros if you can properly rev match.

This thread kinda sorta sucks.

[QUOTE=missinmahseven]1. Going around the big roundabout in downtown Hollywood (FL) with all 4 tires slipping, tail hanging out, bow pointed into the turn.

2. Stuffing a 70 pound tube amp, a 30 pound preamp, a CDPlayer, a power distro box and a case of CDs in the trunk, plus 2 sixpacks of beer and 1/2 case of bordeaux, then stuffing two huge Klipsch Fortes in the rear seats.
****************

OK I'll bite: what amp/pre ya got??? 30 lbs for a pre is pretty damn unusual! I'm gonna take a stab: Audio Research??

I'm more curious about what Bordeaux it was...

I'm more curious about when and why Hollywood was moved to Florida...

Why not??????????

Going from 6th to 3rd (and rev-matching) is one of the most fun things I do on most days

Hey, I don't wanna turn this into a "how to drive manual" thread any more than it already is, but why do you rev match when going from 6-3? Isn't it faster to just throw it down and go like stink? I mean, isn't it going to be in the appropriate powerband no matter what since you're dropping 3 gears?

Holy crap, this thread made me wince a few times

Saturn - say you're cruising in 6th gear at about 70 mph, so your RPMs are at about...trying to remember...I think it's about 3500 in the rx8. Then you have a sudden urge to go all kamikaze and stuff, so your best way to get all the acceleration you want is to get those RPMs up where the power is (6000ish-9000). So you're going to 'downshift' into third.

The reason why you rev-match has been said a few times already...you don't want to hurt your car. If you just go straight from 6th to 3rd (3500 rpms, and then BOOM, your synchros get you up to 7000rpms), it's hard on the tranny. So yes and no, it will go to the appropriate RPMs if you don't rev-match, but you're going to get a whiplash and you'll really have a feeling that you're hurting your car.

So if you rev-match, by blipping the throttle all the way to 8000 RPMs, then shift into 3rd, your shift will be smooth, and no harm done on the tranny/gearbox/etc. I believe 70mph in 3rd gear is around 7500~ RPMs. So by rev-matching, you're making the illusion as if you're redlining in 2nd gear, and shifting into 3rd (which naturally is a smooth up-shift).

And this applies to every downshift...you want to estimate at what RPM your gear will be in according to your speed. So a downshift from 6th gear to 5th gear wouldn't need 'as much' as a rev match. Knowing what RPMs are appropriate takes getting to know your car.

Good to know. Thanks for indulging me.

edited a few things in

btw...I'm not entirely 100% sure what double-clutching is. Anyone? Is it shifting into neutral, clutch out, rev-match, clutch in, shift into gear?

According to my vast experience in manual shifting, yes. Actually, I Googled it when I heard it in Fast and the Furious -- awesome.

Double clutching is typically used on an upshift, it's pretty much what you think but rather than bliping the throttle the purpose is to slow the engine revs down so it's speed matches that of the tranny more closely. In a car with synchros it's not needed, though old cars without synchros and usually semi trucks need double clutching in order to shift properly. You can also double clutch on a downshift but rather than letting the engine slow down you increase the revs, but again there's no reason to double clutch, just plain old rev matching is easier and quicker.

People will still argue that if you don't double clutch you will wear your clutch and synchros out quicker. However, with modern cars there's no reason why a clutch and synchros can't last 100k+ miles. I drove the hell out of my DSM, lots of AWD launches with about 250whp, and older technology, I managed to 96k out of my stock clutch. I don't even think I rev matched much back then...

Check this out: http://domo-kun.nedved.com/avi/18-domo-xanadu.avi

I'm pretty sure I could watch this thing for hours. I find it hilarious for some reason.

Ah, ok, that's the answer I was looking for. I was pretty sure that's what double clutching was (as far as down-shifting) but thought it was useless, but then I've seen other members here post on how double-clutching is easier on the synchros than straight up rev matching. But I feel/see no difference in how the synchros act...so ok, cool.

Bu-bye tranny. Seriously though, I dont blip the throttle and then ease it into 3rd, I take her out of 6th, keep the clutch in, hit the gas until I think its where 3rd will be, and then let the clutch out. If done properly, it slides right into 3rd where the engine rpm is expected to be and off you go like a rocket ship on crack! Its really no different than blipping the throttle and then shifting her in. I hope this isnt the wrong method, but I was never really taught how to drive a stick. I took the fundamentals of a manual tranny from lots of motorcycling, did some research on the definite donts of cars manuals, switched the extremities and taught myself.

^ya, that's rev-matching

If you "rev match" without letting the clutch out, you are only matching the engine speed to the speed of the clutch plate. This doesn't help your synchros at all.

Letting the clutch out in neutral, or "double clutching," lets you spin up the transmission's layshaft so that its speed matches the speed of the new gear you're shifting into, thus saving most of the wear and tear on the synchros. By letting the clutch out in neutral, you're connecting the engine to the layshaft. Only then can the engine spin up that side of the tranny. If you skip this step, the layshaft will be coasting down to a slower RPM and the synchros will have to spin it up to match the lower gear (e.g., 3rd). That is hard to do when you're trying to spin up the layshaft from 3500 rpm (in 6th gear) to 7000 rpm (for 3rd gear).

So "rev matching" is helpful to save wear on your clutch, but doesn't save your synchros. Only double clutching helps the synchros.

Both techniques are most helpful when downshifting (e.g., 6th to 4th). When you're upshifting, the engine and tranny need to spin at a lower speed than before the shift. They tend to do that naturally, so you don't need to do anything special to match the rpm. But when downshifting, they both need to be spinning faster than before the shift, and that's not going to happen without some help.

Michael

I got a friend who is an auto engineer at GM and has worked on some big projects including the Vette. Ill ask him and see what he says from a modern engineering point of view...

Synchros are there to help you, not the other way around ;)

snychros are there to make your shifting possible without learning to double clutch, but if you help them, they'll last longer. that said I don't do it, what's the point.

Did anybody else catch the irony in the last part of No. 3? :mdrmed:

whenever i am thinking "im going to need 3rd gear for this" when im in 6th i alway sdrop it to 4th first. then get my revs up to a suitable rpm (i dont look anymore i just "feel it", too busy watching my opening) then when im truly ready to go drop it from 4th to 3rd and slam the throttle- its very very satisfying :D:D

Sigh. Another member of the my-transmission-is-made-out-of-crystal school. Quick informal poll: How many people here (who don't double-clutch) have ever had a problem because their syncros wore out? Vote me a big no, in 5 manual cars so far.

Just for the record, I didn't say how often anyone should use these techniques, if at all. My point was that rev matching is different than double clutching.

However, just to throw some gasoline on the fire :-), have you ever watched one of the many videos where a good driver drives an RX-8 and they have an inset picture of his feet? Have you ever seen them heel-toe? Why do you think they are doing that?

Hint: they are rev matching in order to downshift smoothly and avoid upsetting the balance of the car while they are going through a corner quickly.

The bottom line is that if you understand the point of these techniques and what they are doing, then you can decide if it is appropriate to use them or not.

Michael

heel-toe is not the same as double-clutching.

Sorry -- I was typing in a hurry. You can actually use heel-toe to do either rev matching or double clutching, although rev matching is more important in the scenario I was describing. I've corrected my post above to say what I meant.

My point remains the same -- you need to understand the purpose of each technique to decide if it is appropriate for you as you're driving.

Well I'll certainly agree with that.