mikesol

I spent the better part of the morning looking at cool pictures of concept cars, and in among them were a bunch from the Mazda 'Flow' series: the Taiki, the Hakaze, and the Kabura among them.
While the cars are really 'out there' in terms of styling, and certainly too loud and different to really be marketable to a lot of people, it does show that Mazda is still breaking new ground on the design front. The Taiki in particular is a gorgeous example of automotive beauty:



This thread is for us to discuss the sorts of cars we'd like to see in Mazda's future lineups.

Here's my idea.

I think that it would be a good idea to take the turbo-4 from the Mazdaspeed 3 and put it into a car like the RX-8. Give the car a bit more power and a lot better mileage, while retaining the good looks and handling, and the sales would do a lot better. This would give Mazda a competitive edge in the market for ~$30K sportscars and allow it develop a real competitive model for this market segment.

Then, make a new car, aimed as a 'halo' car, in a higher price tier. Aim for perhaps around the $50-$60K mark, and make this the real rotary beast that we all want.

The idea would be to make something which uses the design elements pioneered by the Taiki, toned down a bit of course. Put in a very refined interior, good materials all around.
And then, use the new 16X engine with a factory turbocharger to develop somewhere north of 350 HP. Alternately, develop a triple-rotor version of the 16X and get the same power without a turbo.
Top this off with advanced engine management a la the iDrive system in those BMW's or the new systems in the Nissan GT-R. Possibly, throw in all-wheel-drive; don't know if there's ever been a rotary car with AWD.

Yes, this would mean the end of affordable rotary cars for those of us who are still young and broke the bank to buy our RX-8's, but at the same time it would give us something truly amazing to strive for, and it would be a lasting testament to the amazing power of a rotary engine. No longer would people have the ability to insult it purely based on the RX-8's anemic 0-60 times.

When it's not necessary to cheap out on the car in order to make it fit a particular price point, it would be possible to really show off what these engines can do.

Tell me what you think, or tell me what cars you'd like to see!

w0rm

Add wings.

neXib

I think that car looks horrible, but the Furai looks amazing. Like the Batmobile on drugs, good drugs :P

What I want is more rotary, and a more efficient and powerful rotary. Preferably one that runs on love

I don't think they should make any sportscars with anything else than rotary, and it's silly that Mazdaspeed isn't making versions of their two only sportscars.

I don't see how they'd make something more affordable than the RX-8 anyway. I see 20 year olds buying them in the US, here they are so expensive that you can hardly get it sold due to the CO2 emissions. So the key for European market at least is to make a more efficient and environmental engine. And less weight on cars help, but is expensive.

shaunv74

Moar Power!!!!

mikesol

Hell yes, the Furai is beautiful as well. You could practically make the Furai as-is and drop a 16X in it and it would sell like hotcakes. The people lining up to buy the Ariel Atom would have to think twice if this beast was available.

CyberPitz

Except for a Speed Bump that would kick it's ***

Revvittupp

The Furai is beautiful....


A turbo 4 would "significantly degrade the handling and packaging of the RX8, the rotary IS what makes it all work so well. A turbo 4 is MUCH heavier, longer, taller.... so the center of inertia moves UP AND FORWARD... not good

The Furai with a 24X as a flagship would be a great start.... Keep the RX8 close to as-is(16x), and put the rotary(16x) in the next gen Miata.

mikesol

Well, perhaps not the RX8 itself, but another similarly-sized car aiming at the same market segment. Mileage is going to be the huge deciding factor in vehicle purchases for people in this price range for the foreseeable future, and 15 MPG isn't going to convince anyone this is a good idea anymore.

A rotary in a next-gen Miata would not only hurt the sales of that car but it would also hurt the sales of the RX-8 because people that want a rotary would buy the 2-seater.

Detrich

the Furai is beautiful, but it's ethanol engine is highly questionable, as ethanol is proving to be more & more an unrealistic and uneconomical alternative fuel option.

as far as the pecking order goes for japanese cars go in the u.s. market, i think mazda places somewhere like this:

1. lexus/ toyota
2. acura/ honda
3. infiniti/ nissan
4. mazda

given the way they do business, mazda will NEVER succeed at the $50K+ market, because they have some of THE worst customer service at the dealerships in both sales and service departments. this is something that toyota and honda have figured out and remedied very early on.

as far as the future of the rotary is concerned, i dont' think mazda has any interest in making a "halo" car to market. it's not their target customer demographic. and, as i mentioned, they have absolute zero support infrastructure or ability to properly appease customers of that price range- who WILL demand good service and support. any customer of that range would all end up becoming disgruntled at some point and never buy a mazda ever again, most likely...

mazda has kept the tradition/ history of developing a rotary sports car that is affordable and less than $50K. the problem is that they are unable to keep up the horsepower and fuel efficiency as other car manufacturers are beginning to pull ahead.

with all their rotary engine expertise and knowledge, mazda MUST prove that they can deliver a $30K rotary sports car with 350HP that's reliable, high performance, fun to drive, and that gets decent mpg. if they can't do this, then as sad as it is for me to say it, then they really should gracefully bow out and throw in the towel. because otherwise, the rotary sports car is just going to be another all-looks-no-substance car. and, who wants that?

16x or not, i for one, would never consider buying a 2010 model RX-8 or RX-7 for $30K if it only shipped with 250 BHP. that's just a joke compared to the competition.

TopGear8

iTrader: (3)

A car with 1000 hp!!

Revvittupp

[QUOTE=Detrich;2487567]the Furai is beautiful, but it's ethanol engine is highly questionable, as ethanol is proving to be more & more an unrealistic and uneconomical alternative fuel option.

QUOTE]

Give it time... that's the WHOLE POINT. It's not like the gov't went into the ethanol ring thinking it saved money or oil initially. They are settign up the infrastructure so that once technology comes at us that makes it a reasonable mainstream option, we can flip it like a light switch. This will come as soon as they find a way to use husks and stalks in the ethanol. Currently only the kernel or edible portion are used in ethanol production.

mikesol

Detrich, I agree with you on pretty much all points. You're being a little more realistic than me! I just wanted to think about the amazing things they could do if they tried a bit more.

I agree that Mazda really needs to get their act together for customer service and do it soon. I sure as hell don't want them to be an also-ran forever.

fahrfegneugen

The RX-8 is a great car for Mazda, and I think the rotary should stay affordable. On top of that, a company like Mazda should not have $50k price ranges, that is beyond the capability of the name, if you get what I mean.

I want to see a rotary sedan maybe.

Your idea about an 8 with a normal motor is something they have done already, but I forget what the name of the car was.

fahrfegneugen

What if it weighed 2200 lbs

Detrich

well, if they could do that, then maybe... but, realistically, 2200 lbs is highly unlikely for a car with the size requirements of a 4 seater.

the only car in that range is a lotus elise- around 2000 lbs. but that thing is TINY with a completely crap interior. even the s2000 weighs in around 2900 lbs.

i just don't see how they could do it without completely changing the car to the point where no one would want to buy it anymore.

SayNoToPistons

iTrader: (8)

Front Mid-engine lay out, RWD, well balanced chassis, 30k and under, very light (2800lbs and under) and expandable. Thats the definition of a pure sports car that will sell. Look at the Miata. Cept i want a rotary .

fahrfegneugen

I don't know, I plan to buy a brand new rotary when I have the chance, I think it is unique and really cool car no matter what the competition is.

CyberPitz

I didn't buy the RX-8 to be ahead of the competition. I love the Rotary and the look/feel of the 8 that I don't care what everybody around me is doing...I'm having the time of my life with every spin of the Rotor.

8 Maniac

iTrader: (1)

Ethanol isnt a poor choice because of infrastructure (well, for now it is), it's a poor choice as a fuel.

I will agree that we need something to match the competition. As nice as it is to say we understand the rotary therefore we buy it, that wont apply to many people out there. And those who aren't as concerned about what type of engine it is, but are more interested in how well it performs on the given platform, will not choose the rotary if it doesn't compete.

robrecht

Simple: 2-seat 2500-lb 16x Kabura with super sticky rubber.

Icemark

I guess you didn't know that the MS 3 only gets 18/ 26 MPG (city/Highway (2007 EPA standards)) vs 16/23 (2008 EPA rating standards)... 1 or 2 MPG better is not better mileage in the eyes of a consumer. And the MS3 engine is heavier and radically rougher running than the Reni... so now you have a 4 cyl dog. Only a bad bad product planner would do this.

Halo cars are jokes. They don't sell they waste money that should be used for making the regular line better. Robert Farago says it best with his rant on halo cars:
Nope, what you propose clearly shows that you either have no grasp on the automotive business and are just dreaming, or you want Mazda to go back on the brink of bankruptcy like back in the mid-90s because of poor product planning like the FD, because there is no way in the world that anyone would spend $30K on a Japanese turbo 4 cyl "sports coupe", or $60K (for that matter even $50K) on a Mazda.

.

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bigireland

Word!! Ladies and gentlemen, Mazda is proud to present: The 2010 RX-7!! hehehe.. if only..

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Not exactly, ever since the new GT-R came out, it created a LOT of heat among the japanese auto maker. Remember, these Super Sports car thing is a money burning pit hole with no end. Thats why almost EVERYBODY quit this game back in the late 90s.

Back to Mazda, You can tell this 2nd/3rd - tier Auto company is trying to tell the *big boys* that I can kick u guys's *** even with a non-traditional engine. Increasing displacement is not as easy as people think, they're basically making an almost brand new engine out the door. but now the more I think about it, the more ... I hate to say it but, it seems that the Renesis we have now is like a *beta* version that Mazda pumped out to test the Side Exhaust ports idea.

Anyway, That also means when 16x comes out, by design alone, it should have at least have 300 hp. Ethanol compatible(this fuel sucks I know), about the same or better mpg as today's Renesis. Remember, even the current 8 with its low tq Renesis, can take down some of the big boys with a lot more power.

I agree with the 50K part tho, Mazda has great design, but they really failed at after sales-customer relationship. Especially that *Deny warranty crap*, sometimes its Mazda sometimes its greedy Dealership. In Japan they have really good customer relationship, they really gotta work a little bit on its US side of things ...

robrecht

Absolutely true. That's the liability of only one major auto company still doing a minimal amount of R&D on the rotary, but it's also fun to be part of the process. In addition to the tq/efficiency issue, another real question in my mind is how well Mazda can solve the carbon issue, as I recall that was also the fatel flaw with Mazda's first experiment in the side port design back in the 60s? Obviously, we're doing better with the Renesis in that department, but still need progress. Sohn adapter with some specially designed clean lubricious premix? Mazda may not go down that road, but we can.

New Yorker

What I would like to see in future Mazdas:

Like the MX-5 and RX-8, maintain commitment to handling, and the way the car feels—"oneness between horse and rider"—above all else. That's what Mazda sports cars are all about, and that's why I buy them over a BMW or Nissan. More power? Don't really need it, but if they can do it without making the car heavier, less agile—less lively in feel—than fine.