RX - 8

yah, but owning a rotary is totally different thing than owning an acura...i personaly have a hard time comapring two cars for that reason alone..rotarys are unique..unlike all the piston motors

DANNER

True, but the question was "what other cars are you looking into". AFAIK the RX8 is the only one with a Rotary coming out

But there are other major differences...4 door vs. 2Dr. FWD vs. RWD. Luxury brand vs. Standard brand. etc, etc, etc...

RX - 8

i know what the question was, and if you have read the first page on this thread then you will know what my answer is...my comment was a side note about rotary vs piston!..any problems?

DANNER

No problems dude. Just Checkin . Anyways if you say an Acura is different because it's got a piston engine you've gotta say the same about the 350Z you're interested in.

I've never driven a rotary engine before, so I really don't know how different they feel. I'm not particularly interested in the RX8 because of it's rotary engine. I just think its gonna be sweet car...It looks cool and it should be fast.

However, the CL-S is a sweet (and highly underrated) car.

mazdamax

Well, it's interesting.... when the RSX-S came out, I was sold on that car as my next vehicle... Then I realized the RX-8 would be under 30k and was convinced that was the car to get... Now, I am smitten by the new G35 coupe... 275 hp, 4 seats, rwd and great looks (IMO). I've also seen the Mini Cooper and like that and I've always liked GTI's but I have had really negative experiences with VWs. If I had the money... I guess the BMW 330ci is the car, it's the car I've always wanted, but it is just too expensive. So... the car of the week for me right now is the G35 coupe, basically a 4 seat 350Z with more refined looks and smoother edges... If you haven't seen the G35 coupe, find some pictures on the web... sorry for the rambling message... there are so many sporty cars now in so many different styles and ranges...

FritzMan

'Bout the Protege, I currently drive a 2001 ES fully loaded. Although it does it's job exceptionally well I'm getting anxious to ditch it. First of all, it's gearing sucks (3K RPM at 100 kph) making long highway trips annoying, and it's seats (especially the lumbar - or lack thereof) are the worse I've ever sampled. I'm begging with pain to get out after 30 minutes. I've tried all adjustments, and no other car has given me the same grief...

This leads to the new MazdaSpeed Protege which has the exact same gearing, and the same seats (different cover though). Somehow, it's also gained 150 lbs (2800 curb weight). Stock internal indicate that turning up the wick will be limited before things get really expensive. Cool in that you get so much aftermarket gear with the car, which could save a lot of coin in the long run. The LSD is an awesome addition as well.

I'm going to test drive a Cooper this aft to see what this thing is all about.

FritzMan

Took the Mini (non S) for a spin on Friday. It did have the Cooper S suspension sport settings, and performance rubber. Beyond the novelty of it's appearance, the Mini is not a bad car, worth $26+ K Cdn ($30K+ for the S)??? Not me, thanks. Typical front-wheel driver with pretty good handling (sales man wouldn't let me disable the DSC-skid control). Similar power to the Protege 2 liter with much better handling of course. I didn't care for the shifting throws, the weight of the shifting, or the size of the shift **** (which was quite large). The centre-mounted speedometer was a pain to get used to. The general ergonomics were poorly laid out - something which could be easy to tire of after the novelty is gone. There was a surprising amount of wind noise due to the steep windshield, and even a lot more than expected noise with the windows open. Brakes were quite good. You actually sit almost in the middle of the car, which is surprising because you'd think looking at it that you would end up sitting much further forward. Surprisingly, the leatherette fabric was quite convincing.

Was it as much fun as I expected? No, and that isn't mainly based on power. It's based on nimblness, braking, power, ergonomics, all the thing that made an FD the ride of a lifetime.

Taking into account that the only difference between the Cooper and the S is in power and a 6 speed, the whole package does not seem to be as good of a car compare to it's closest rival (IMO) the Acura RSX Type S. I know the Cooper S has 40 more HP than the Cooper, but it weights 200 lbs more than the Cooper, and is still 40 hp under a Type S, despite being only 100 lbs lighter. The Type S was quieter, more refined ergonomics and fabic quality, has more room, handled almost as well, and based on the power to weight ratios to a Cooper S, a hell of a lot more quicker.

Next...

veloceracing

Well I ordered my car today....and its not a Mazda product. After repeated calls to my dealer and even a stop at a bigger dealer in the NYC area, their total lack of info and help on the subject totally turned me off to the idea of purchasing an RX8?

Why you ask? Why did I make such a decision? Because quite frankly, hearing the words, "I dont know" spatted at you in every politically correct and friendly way are enough to make your head spin and look the other way...at another car company. The car comany I looked at was MINI. And they got my business. I went to my Mazda dealer requested my 500 Dollar check and they did so after a little bit of a hassle. And I made the phone call to the mini dealer asking where it is I should drop off my check and for how much to make it out for. I then placed a $1,000 dollar check in the hands of the man in charge of the mini's in Northern New Jersey. He answered all my questions and told me like it is. He even went so far as to tell what options will be available when and how the cars are coming over....not just "I dunno."

Is the car an FD RX7? Nope. Is it an RX8? Nope. Is it something that I am getting more bang for the buck? Most likely. Will it be fun to drive? I'll let you know. And rumors are flying that the Mini on all season tires scored rather well on the Slalom test that Road and Track threw at it. Beating all of the cars that Road and track has ever tested (street legal cars mind you) except for two Turbo AWD Porsches. Truth to that? Possible...but i need confirmation.

spwolf

"nimblness" ? I dont think you can find a car as nimble as Mini, and no, Cooper S doesnt have the same suspension as Cooper with Sport suspension, but nevertheless... Mini is a hot hatch, not a sports coupe... big diff overall

FritzMan

Sorry spywolf, the Cooper with Sport calibration 2 is identical to the Cooper S, and not only that, the Cooper is 200 lbs lighter! The Cooper also came with performance rubber which the S with factory 16" don't. The optional 17" are not a factor b/c they're 25lbs (in total) heavier than the 16". If you're going to test a nimble Cooper, that is the best bet.

Maybe the performance was muted because the demo Cooper came with the optional 50+lbs sunroof, and maybe the extra weight of the salesman effect the sensation (I'm really trying to find excuses here), or maybe it was because of the hyped-up handling this car has. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice peppy car with BWM build quality and technology, with very pleasant looks (in the flesh it's even better). But it still comes down to being a FWD car with typical power to weight ratio of other hot hatches. Regardless of vehicle classification (ie: hatch, convertible, or sport coupe), it wasn't as much fun as I'd hoped. Who knows, maybe the RX-8 won't be either....

Honestly, I've felt the exact same as veloracing several times. I'm *really* disappointed at how slow Mazda is on getting off their behind and releasing the damn thing. I'm more worried about waiting another full year and then learning that the final specs are disappointing (such as the curb weight), or an inflated price reducing the bang for the buck. But how many other fairly powerful rear wheel drive 4 seaters are there out there besides the oh-so-common Bimmer?

veloceracing

MINI's arent about power and the really power hungry should look elsewhere, but about the only time you can see the real power of a mini is when you take your friends mini out for a drive and you start railing it into the corners.....thats where the mini is untouchable. BTW First minis had 37 HP.

FritzMan

Not trying to be defensive here, just to clarify my point. I wasn't just talking about power, I was talking about nimbleness as well - which it was, but no more than a typical aftermarket prep'd vehicle. It simply wasn't as fun as I'd thought. I'm curious to see who'd do better in AutoX down the road, Mini S or RX-8. RX-8 maybe be 300 lbs heavier, but it will have better weight distribution, more power, a LSD, and RWD going for it. The longer wheelbase and torque-less engine will definitely be cons.

IMO, I was disappointed in that Mini didn't have more oomph (yes, I didn't try the S, but hp/power ratio is publicly available along with 0-60 times of low 7s). Also, a car of this performance has to come with a LSD, which no matter how one dices it, is superior to electronic traction control. No, it's not all about power, but for $30K+ Cdn, I'd like more than 160hp, especially with the S curb weight of 2675lbs (without the heavier 17" wheels and sunroof). That's almost identical power to weight ratio of a base RSX. For a car boasting excellent performance, it came up a little short in some aspects. Besides that, it was an impressive package, and a definite hit for many.

Honestly, as spiritful as the RX-8 may be, if I was power-oriented, I wouldn't be on this board.

spwolf

fritzman, sorry dude... Cooper S has bigger anti-roll bars, stiffer springs not jut different suspension setup (to the point of being a bit too hard on your bones, sport suspension on Cooper would be just fine)... 6 speed manual is a getrag with much shorter ratios and different overall feel... power to weight ratio of S is 1:16.9 while Cooper is 1:21.9. Plus you get more torque, a lot more... S goes 0-60 in 6.9 based on BMW claims...

Thats like checking out new Civic Si and coming out dissapointed at Civic Type R (actually thats a good example - lots of ppl are dissapointed by SI while everyone is crazy about Type-R) ;-)

Besides, Mini is not about sheer speed, I suspect that RX-8 will beat it on the track (much more power)... but Mini is all about nimbleness , and I would think that Cooper S would be the fastest car in slalom that R&T ever tested, normal Cooper is just marginally slower than Porsche GT2

All of that being said, you are perfectly correct in not liking Mini. It is your money, it is your choice. RX-8 has advantages over mini... it is a different car than mini. You sit differently, you drive differently, a lot of differences... and thats fine... driving experience overall in Mini will be very much different than RX-8, and you better like what you spend your money on ;-)

I will be waiting for RX-8 before i make my decision, so far I like it a lot...but it really depends on the pricing in my market... for instance Toyota Celica GTS cost $32k in my market, yeah sure ;-)... if mazda goes with similar pricing, I will get Cooper S for sure ($9k difference is a lot)

FritzMan

I think I understand the confusion. Coopers in North America are not yet available with Sport Calibration II option (Cooper S suspension), although they are an option in Europe, and did come pre-spec'd in Canadian Coopers (along with Sport seats). I've reads threads on it (Cooper optional sport suspension ), and even asked the dealer during the test drive. I wanted to make sure I was unbiased in assessing the handling traits, especially b/c there was not a Cooper S to test drive. Note the factory Cooper comes with Sport 1 calibration.
Besides that, yes, the torque and extra cog could make things a little more different for the Cooper S in accleration, but not necessarily in handling, especially with an extra 200 lbs on board. Don't be too fooled with the slalom results. Yes, they are impressive, but remember the car is very narrow hence left-right transition are less dramatic, resulting in a quicker time. On a track (or AutoX to a certain extent), the advantage will not be as strong.

BMW published 7.4 for 0-100 kph (approx 62 MPH) on other official MINI sites such as the Canadian & UK sites. It's possible there's an extra shift to 3rd to get to 100 kph, hence the extra .5 second. Here's a thread on the topic.
0-60 Cooper S . IMO, that's still barely adequate for a car of that price and performance orientation.

Actually, I quite like the MINI Cooper S. It's very nice looking, packed with technology, and refreshing. I would have put a deposit down on one had come with 200 hp, a LSD, and weighed closer to 2600 lbs. These things can be done with aftermarket assistance, but the resulting cost would be damn close to a base RX-8.

For now, I can wait and see what else comes...

spwolf

Frtiz, actually here is the suspension deal.. as too engine, dunno really... Mini has more torque at much much lower RPM.

Sport Suspension - optional on Cooper
Sport Suspension PLUS - standard on Cooper S, not avaiable on Cooper (european naming)

2nd of all, we are talking about almost fully loaded Cooper S for $24k.... Cooper S "base", starts at $20k... and you definetly cant get any other car with that good handling + speed for $20k...

RSX Type S - base version starts at $24
maybe I am wrong, there is some other cars that cost as much? Celica GTS is not as good and costs more, RSX is there somewhere but more expensive anyway

Anyway Fritz, I think you are waiting for Type R to come to USA, according to CAR mag (brits) it was awesome crazy ride, totally cool... our croatian dealer decided to price to price Hondas close to Ferrari's (well almost, but they some crazy pricing and we have no honda's at all, why would you pay $20k for a base 1.6 civic? wtf)

veloceracing

Fritz, rear wheel drive isnt a benefactor to car all the time. Its all a matter to wether or not one can make use of the benefits of all of the features of each drivetrain lay out. Note yes the RX8 has a projected 50:50 weight layout, the MINI's wheel base and total lack of Torque steer and its comparatively wide body are gonna make it hard to beat in the twisties. Even though it IS fwd.

FritzMan

My prices are Cdn. quoted. A fully loaded S would be close to $40K, and they start at $29. Now you guys can see what we've got to deal with, even though our standard of living is relatively the same...

Guess we're just speculating on handling, but simple physics dictate that FWD will not have as much traction available as RWD. Would definitely be a close battle. I definitely plan on taking my future RX-8 autoX'ing and see how she does against Minis.

Actually, I'm more interested in the RX-8 than the R because it will have RWD, most likely a quieter and more refined ride, and can carry 4 passengers easily.

spwolf

Frtizman, ur an oximoron, but thats fine ;-)

Type R is not too refined or quiet, its supposed to be a pocket rocket but based on what I read so far, its handling is a bit too uninvolving, typical of jap built car... they compared Clio 172 quite favorably to it... (and Clio 172 costs only $20k with full equipment, everything, leather, auto air, xenons, 16" wheels, 6 cd changer + RDS, eletric sunroof, heated seats)

I hope new Clio coming out next year will stay as sporty as Clio 172 version... just won Hot Hatch of the year in Britain, and they know a lot about Hot Hatches... thats another car I might get, Cooper S is a little bit more expensive than that

veloceracing

Guess we're just speculating on handling, but simple physics dictate that FWD will not have as much traction available as RWD.

That DEPENDS, where are we using this traction? underbraking before a chicane or on the drag strip?

As far as handling goes, the MINI (non S) out handled the PORSCHE 911 GT2 on the slalom course. Is that good?

FritzMan

OK, where does it say I want a Type R? Sure, I'm curious to see how it compares, but I don't want one.

My point is that for $30K + Cdn, I want more than a hot performing front wheel drive (that includes the likes of a 3.5SE Altima). That's a lot of cash! It takes us Canadians as much effort (if not more due to our ridiculous tax rates) to earn that cash as our fellow Americans. So here's the question, would you pay over $30K USD on a FWD sporty natured vehicle with no LDS and only 160 hp? I know I won't, hence I target the Evo or Infinity G35 as potential models comparable to the RX-8. None are FWD, all are powerful, sophisitcated platforms which can carry 4 quite well. There's nothing oximoronic to my stated market of intent.

Sure the Mini is sporty, and really is a BWM reskinned with a different drivetrain layout. The slalom is a impressive number, but I believe its more due to it's chassis width than actual better-than-Porsche-handling. There's more to handling than left-right transitions. The Mini, as all other FWDs, will suffer most in the throttle-on-exit handling trait due to lack of traction from the drivetrain layout and that is has no LSD.

spwolf

Man, I am sick of Canadians complaining about their own currency... are you trying to tell me that minimum wage in McDonalds is $3.5 US? No, I dont think so... ;-)
Canada has higher standard of living than USA... so all canadians in the world, please stop complaining... you won the olympic gold in hockey, there you go...


All right, now to the Type R... I thought orignally that you might like it since its more radical than Mini Cooper S... however, you then went on to say that you want to pay low amounts of money for RWD or AWD car, with lots of power, low weight and lots of standard equipment (plus it has to have refined ride and carry 4 passangers)... hence me calling you oxymoron and I am sticking by it... ;-)

veloceracing

Candadians are angry for one reason....shrinkage.

FritzMan

Ohhhhhhh! Let's see how 'endowed' you US males are in our climate!

Regarding our currency, here's an example on pay. A typical senior IT guy makes about 100K depending on where they're physically located (I know these things b/c I've entertained offers for same job description in both countries). Now if cars cost 40 - 50% more, as do other goods manufactured outside of Canada, it will effect our standard of living compared to our American neighbours. There's a reason why we've got something called 'brain drain' in Canada, it's b/c all the skilled labour is going to the US. They can simply work there until retirement and then get a 60% spike in their effective cash when they come back to Canada. Our taxes are higher (I paid gross of 50% this year in income taxes), and we can't write off mortgage interest.

And don't even begin to say our social system is better. It's run by the government, need I say more?

But yes, a gold in hockey does keep spark some patriotism. :D

veloceracing

at least you dont have to fund a huge army...you have what? 2 mounties? eh?

spwolf

man, I can imagine red cavalry riding after Taliban in Afganistan... that would be an awesome shot.

I keep mentioning that to my Canadian friends and they keep getting mad... hmph