anthger

What is the difference of 210HP Japan specs from 192HP Europe specs?

I have an RX8 210HP Japan specs 5SM and i am in europe.

I reasently upgrade the firmware from a mazda dealer in europe. Will this affect the HP of my car? Will this upgrade has as a result now to have a 192HP Rx8?

Regards,

Anthony

dazygirl415

Maybe 'cause i'm blonde, but what happened to the 238 hp for the 8? Is it different overseas?

truemagellen

ummm no comment on the blonde thing

but he is referring to the Standard Power RX-8 (AUtomatic in the US) not the High-Power RX-8 (6sp in the US) :D

anthger

Yes ut us the Standard Power RX8 but it is 5sp manual not automatic

RX-Hachi

The difference is due to emission regulations in different parts of the world. Basically, the ECU detunes the engine for both the US and EU compared to Asia. The firmware upgrade won't help much, unless you get the Jpn spec firmware.

High Power: 250 PS (Jpn), 238 HP* (US), 231 PS (EU)
Std. Power: 210 PS (Jpn), 197 HP* (US), 192 PS (EU)

*note: PS does not = HP, it's actually a little higher. For example, the US spec RX-8 would be rated at 241 using PS.

Rasputin

I don't see how emissions would affect peak power as the emission test cycles don't even come close to WOT at peak power speed.

Based on my experience, I'd think it's all in the differences in homologation / certification test procedures. See following thread for details : https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...vertised+power

Fabrice

RX-Hachi

^that might have something to do with it. But prior to the car's release in 2003, Mazda had already stated that the EU cars would be rated at 231 PS (high pwr)/192 PS (std. pwr) in order to meet 2005 EU emission standards. Early pre-order folks in Europe supposedly had letters from Mazda stating so.

Whether one chooses to believe Mazda or not is another story, but let's not go there again.

mr2000x

the Jap version kicks some serious butt compared to its us/euro counterparts....

Rasputin

I don't know of any engine previously meeting Euro-3 that lost peak power after recalibration in order to meet Euro-4 emission standards.
If anyone has a technical explanation for it, I'd be glad to hear it.

The closest I've read to a proper technical explanation is that the legal requirement for catalyst longevity are higher in USA and EU than in Japan, requiring more catalyst protection overfuelling and therefore moving the engine WOT operating conditions away from the optimum LBT. I'd love to see a Japanese RX8's WOT fuelling (on an Hymee sCANer) to see if it is confirmed.

And I really don't understand how a difference in peak power inferior to 10% could "kick some serious butt"...

anthger

Do anyone knows if i flash my 210 HP RX8 with the europe specs flash it will become 192HP?

RX-Hachi

Oh, so you bought an Asia spec car and moved to Europe? No idea what affect the EU flash would have, depends on what the flash was designed to do. It may have not changed the power at all. Did you feel a power loss afterwards?

Rasputin

This below is my best guess, based on my experience.

One of these two possibilities :
- The WDS CD is a global one that contains all updates and it will update your car accordingly with the Japan update file ;
- or it does not contain all updates and the system will tell the dealer it cannot update your PCM.

The update file selection process is automatic. The WDS system won't update your Japan PCM with an EU update file.

And with any version, I would expect your engine to develop 192 hp if tested under CEE 80/1269*88/195 (followed by CEE 89/491, CE 97/21, CE 1999/99) procedure.

F

RX-Hachi

Ok, I'm no expert in this area, but if what you say is true, how do you explain the following? Just curious.

BMW M3: 343 PS (Jpn), 343 PS (EU), 333 HP (US)
Honda S2000: 250 PS (Jpn), 240 PS (EU), 240 HP (US)

Rasputin

BMW M3 : JA 343 PS, EU 343 PS, NA 333 HP = 338 PS
S2000 : JA 250 PS, EU 240 PS, NA 240 HP = 243 PS

I guess some European car manufacturers are not very good at fully exploiting the potential of the different homologation procedures, especially the Japanese procedure. On the example shown in my first post on this thread (see link), the NA and EU homologation/certification procedures were supervised by the same engineer, in the same dyno-cell in UK. Mazda took care of the JA homologation.
I also guess that Japan is not a very important market for BMW, not enough anyway to justify dedicated ressources for a special homologation engine and test.

There was (still is?) also a special requirement for NA markets : free wheeling in case of drive belt/chain failure (pistons must clear the valves even when timing is lost), which resulted in either :
- lower compression ratio, hittingBMEP and therefore power
- valve recesses in the pistons, creating hot spots and making the engine more detonation limited, hitting BMEP too.
If I remember correctly, there was a time also were the M3 for US was using a standard 2.8l 6-cyl engine instead of the EU M3 engine. The power rating for the US M3 was somewhere between the EU 2.8l and M3 ratings. I need to find that old Car & Driver copy.

Always remember also that US torque an power ratings are "advertised" figures that are not verified by any official government authorities.
The EU homologation test is witnessed (the guy comes in the dyno-cell!) by TüV or any other official homologation service. Later, the EU authorities is entitled to go at the engine plant and check the engine performance figures from any engine on the mine against the homologated ones! Ouch, better not cheat...

All explanations are not always technical, but also sometimes down to marketing or internal politics.

Fabrice

MintyFresh

Great info Fabrice, thanks, - i've been looking for an answer myself for ages!

zoom44

Rasputin is correct teh WDS will not load a file not "intended" for your vehicle. so you either got no flash or the updated japanese flash dependeding on the skill level of the dealership.