U.S. cars versus the RX-8?
 

with all the comparo's flying around between the rx-8 and various cars i noticed that they were all asian or european. what is a good comparison to the rx-8 in an american car? or is there one. should it be compared to the chrysler crossfire coupe do out in the fall? thoughts?

That's a tough one...

Mustang GT maybe? RWD, HP = 260, Torque = 302, 0-60 = 5.7 sec., has back seats, $25 - 26K.

Obviously not a very sophisticated platform (used for the past 20 years), and kinda homley, but it is good cheap V8 fun. Maybe the 2004 model based on the DEW platform used for the Lincoln LS and Jag E-Type will be a Mustang for enthusiasts to "enthuse" over.

Corvette is in another league both performance and price -wise.

Whatever Chrysler makes...all I see under the surface is minivans and K cars.

Re: U.S. cars versus the RX-8?
 

Well that's going to be a hard one. Isn't that a two seater? Plus the drivetrain is from a real German Mercedes. My only problem with this car is that the concept car was so much better looking with the stacked headlights. It looks like it is intended for a much more sedate crowd now. :(

:p LMAO.....I agree!! Bring on the wood side paneling!!

The best domestic car to match up will be the upcoming GTO (loosely used "domestic" I think they are gonna be made in Australia), sadly other than that we have no rear wheel drive cars with 4 wheel independent suspension geared toward spirited driving.

well here is a link to some pics and a story. it is hardly a minivan. please don't mention kcars again, my mom had one (shudders).

yeah that was one of my thoughts along time ago. the 8 definetly is the better car imo especially than the 6cyl versions of the 'stang. but i see much else to compare to other then the holden monaro that is coming as the gto.

That looks pretty sharp.

IMO Chrysler has truly world class styling and design capabilities. Heck, I think the Mercedes S class is looking more and more like an Intrepid! The problem seems to be their engineering. Maybe it's unfair, but their poor quality reputation still haunts.

The Chrysler Crossfire is very sweet!

This has a Mercedes engine and drive train.

I'll wait for it to come out this summer and then compare it to the RX-8.

oh goodness, (imo) the crossfire is one fugly car.

And if it's anything like a Merc then the RX-8 has nothing to worry about.

Soft cushy ride, floaty suspension, BUT good interior, materials, layout, and engine.

with ya on that one snow_tyres... :D

Judging by those pics, chrysler took a risk with that car. It has the kind of styling you are either going to love or hate (I happen to love it). At least with mostly a merc engine, tranny, etc. the reliability concerns many of us have will be addressed.

I also love the car, but can you consider it "American" if the Crossfire will be built in Germany, by Karmann, and will be comprised of nearly 40 percent Mercedes parts, including its engine and transmission? I also think the Crossfire might be more expensive than the RX8, it has "only" 215hp and it is a strict two seater. And as Hercules says if it handles like a merc the RX8 has nothing to worry about.

Well this looks like a good thread for me to post in, considering I'm looking at replacing my '96 Camaro Z28. Currently, I'm considering replacing it with the RX-8 or a 2001 TransAM WS6. I know that both cars are entirely different, and that the 2001 WS6 will woop up on the RX-8 in a straight line any day. However, I'm also out of the race myself to death phase of my life, and my license can't take driving like an immature kid on the road anymore. So, given my current daily driving never exceeds 75-80, and I don't push my '96 to its limits, I think I'd like to be able to get some better handling from a car. The RX-8 should handle the twisties many folds over my '96 Z28, and out due the 2k1 Firebird as well. However, I'd still like it to be able to kick up to 60 nice and quick for on-ramp accellaration, and maybe even push me back in my seat a little bit. I still can't decide...it's getting rough, and surprisingly I can't even use insurance quotes to make my choice since I called my carrier and got an "idea" of a quote for the RX-8 and it is very similar to what I'm going to be paying for the 2K1 TransAM. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :(.

Well, I guess trying to compare those two cars I'd better put my flame suit on around here...but, flame/compare away. What would you guys do?

I guess this post got me thinking too much...I bought a Mustang GT this past weekend. This is my second GT so I have some happy experiences with them. I got a dark blue 2001 with 13,500 mi for $17,500 (US).

The RX-8 is definitely in my future. But I need to see and drive one before I decide. Also, I don't buy new cars. I'll let someone else eat the depreciation...

When the time comes,however,I expect it'll be a good combination of my Miata's handling and the Mustang's power!

American competition
 

Golly this is a good crowd! No mention of FWD competitors...

However, if you do want to bring up FWD, then the SVT Focus should warrant a look.

One of the neat things about the Crossfire is the horizontal crease running on the flanks. Its indentation flips at mid door and has to be a real booger to pull out of the dies. I thought only Toyota did things like this (see the rear quarter panel on the Celica - Toyota did this basically as a "See what we can do, nah nah nah").

One vehicle that could be a real contender is the Dodge Razor (if they ever decide to build it). And Pontiac may have a coupe based on the Solstice (with which they have targeted the Miata). The Pontiac product folks have been tasked with making their product match their PR (anyone want to take bets on the outcome? ;-).

Yeah! The RX-8 has a lot of similar American cars to compare to! You know, all of those American mid-engined RWD cars that are available for under $30k... :p

i think the new mustang will be a pretty good competitor. com'on, as far as configuartions go, (front) mid-engine, 4-seat, 4-doors (kinda), rotary, there is NOTHING equivalent to the 8. few cars will probably look as great as the 8. but in the general sports car category, the new 'stang should definitely be a competitor, although the crowd they're reaching would be a bit different. it'll probably be a pretty worthy competitor, too. the DEW platform from LS/T-Bird/S-Type is pretty good, and you know it's going to have a strong V8, porbably in the vicinity of ~300hp for the GT. handling-wise it'll be better than the current car (no more Fox cars), but it'll also be heavier, likely MUCH heavier, than the 8, so it'll not be as nimble and spunky, more muscle-car-ish. you can just see one of those car & drive comparison, 350z (or g35), rx-8, mustang, crossfire, even the GTO. exciting!

corvette is a step up, much more expensive, much more pure sports, would be something the next rx-7 would go against

i don't think it'd be fair to group FWD cars here

hell yeah! RX-7 vs Corvette, but would that also mean RX-7 will be significantly more expensive than the RX-8???

and ditto on the FWD comment :D

hmm...

well, the 8 tops off at 33k (which i think is great for such a car). the final FD topped off at 40k (in japan, Spirit R Type A, instantly sold out). full out no compromise sports car. w/ the new 7, i hope that's still the case. so if the top-of-the-line goes up that high i'd be ok with it, just because it's an rx-7 =)

but mazda probably won't do that, 'cuz they'd want it to be able to compete w/ 350z price

so here's the question...which is better, the no-compromise-awesome-full-out-assault rx-7, but have to pay the price (ie 40 grand)... OR the 350z-priced not-as-awesome-but-just-as-cool-as-the-z rx-7 (ie 30 grand)?

IMHO Mazda should not go too overboard with the prices on the next RX-7 - just look what happened to the sales figures when FC became FD!
What I think they ought do is to have an entry-level RX-7 with the standard RX-8 Renesis engine with a base price of around 30.000$, I think that would move quite a few cars!
The RX-7 RZ (or something like that), with the slightly larger engine, should start off at around 35.000$. If Mazda decides to put out another sports car with FD pricing, I'm afraid it might once again kill the rotary - it's great to be ambitious, but necesary to be realistic!

Cheers

Eske

I will keep saying this in the hopes that Mazda will take it to heart. :D

"Horsepower figures without weight figures are meaningless but the general public is not aware of this. Mazda does not need to get caught up in a horsepower race when they have the perfect engine to turn things into a weight race.

No other manufacturer has the capability to produce an engine as small, as light and as powerful as the rotary. Honda tuned the hell out of the s2000 engine but it is still bigger, heavier, produces less hp and less torque than the renesis. Early estimates even have the rx-8 beating the lighter s2000 in fuel economy!?!?!

Mazda needs to emphasize their individuality by creating a next rx-7 as light as they can. They are afforded the opportunity to do this because a small impractical RX-7 will attract a different market than the practical RX-8 even if they are priced similarly. Nissan has great V6s that produce a lot of power and torque but they can't put it in a car under 3000 lbs. Why should Mazda participate in a horsepower war when they have the ability to produce a small lightweight car with unmatched acceleration, handling and braking for the price? How many people would buy a small 2600 lb rx-7 with 285 hp/180 torque that could go 0-60 in 4.5 seconds and cost $32,000 US? "

Pricing to compete with the 350z will be a smart idea.

Brian

I agree completely! If (and I stress if) Mazda decides to make this car the single-most impractical beast on the planet, a sports car by any other name, they should try to produce something truly unique - and they certainly could do worse than following the example of the Elise: Less weight = more fun!
If Mazda could hit the 2600-2800 lb mark and, as rumour has it, bore up the Renesis and if they could keep the price around 30.000$... Whoah, just had a wet dream people :cool:

Cheers

Eske

Hmmm, Brian, you never worked for Colin Chapman did you? :D

Not only that but the S2000, the same size as a Miata, weighs 2800 lbs.

Very few coupes these days could come in under 3000 lbs, thank safety regulations for a lot of it. Back to the Lotus position; 'adding lightness' in one place allows you to add lightness in another. The inverse is 'adding weight' in one place demands you add weight in another (brakes, suspension) and pretty soon the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket. Where Mazda is truly out in front of other manufacturers is where they place their weight on their sporting cars.

[in the voice of excited Beavis with bubbles coming out of his head]
Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Yeah... heheheheh... Weight! Weight! Weight!

[in the voice of excited Beavis with bubbles coming out of his head]
Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Yeah... heheheheh... Weight! Weight! Weight!

[Butthead]
Uhhh.... Dammit Beavis! What do you want me to wait for?!?? We're talking about horsepower and torque!

[in the voice of Beavis with bubbles coming out of his head]
Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Yeah... heheheheh... That's the ticket... Weight! Weight! Weight!

:D

Huh, huh, huh. Low weight is cool.

Actually its seven inches longer than the Miata with five of that being the wheelbase. The S2000 also about two inches taller and two inches wider, so it's not quite the same size. The Miata is actually much closer to the MR2 Spyder in size (two inch difference in length) and weighs about 200 lbs. more than the Toyota.

The S2000, as you noted, does weigh around 2800 lbs. which is about 420 lbs more than the MX-5. Most of the weight difference is probably in the chasis, not the engine though. The quoted number I have seen for the F20C is 326 lbs "without accessories" and the weight of the 1.6l in the NA Miata is around 280 lbs. according to the folks over at Miatanet. I suspect the 1.8l in the NB weighs a little more. So, of the approximate 420 lb weight difference only 40-50lbs of that is engine. Seeing as neither of the cars is especially plush with amenities and they both have 16" wheels, I would suspect most of the remaining weight difference is in the chasis.

While I think the power, efficiency, and weight of the Renesis are all very nice attributes I think one of the biggest advantages over piston engines is the size. The ability to make the engine bay smaller and have the center of gravity lower than that of a piston engine should be a susbstantial advantage when it comes to handling.

Mazda, please listen to this. . .
 

I don't agree. The situation now is totally different that when the FD was out (1995).

First, there is an RX-8 now! The only way that the RX-8 does not compete with the 350Z is in straight line performance. A possible 2 door RX-8 or MazdaSpeed either one will take care of that. There is your competitor for the 350Z.

A $40k RX-7 will not kill the rotary. The RX-8 is there to ensure that there is a rotary being sold in sufficient volume to turn a profit. The RX-7 will be a flagship car. If they break even on the RX-7 then it is nothing for them to worry about. The point of the RX-7 should be brand image. People should think "sports car", "zoom-zoom", and "RX-7" all in the same thought. Then they will remember the kids or look at the price and buy an RX-8.

The RX-7 should compete with the Corvette, NSX, and other halo cars. The RX-7 should win races and get glowing magazine reviews. This will sell a lot of RX-8s and Mazda6s and Protegés.

Remember also that $40k now is a lot cheaper than $40k in 1995. If the RX-7 were another FD it would be at least $50k. I don't think Mazda needs to be told any of this. They pay educated people to know the market and the industry. I fully believe that the main reason for the RX-8's existence (remember that it started with Mazda engineers working on their own time) is to make it possible to have a balls-to-the-wall RX-7.

Come on Mazda, do the right thing. Build an RX-7 that breaks even on profit, blows away machines at twice the price, and makes us all proud! :cool:

P.S. Sorry to be so off-topic, but all this talk of a neutered 7 got me fired up. :D

Re: Mazda, please listen to this. . .
 

There was an interview awhile back with a Mazda exec who said that they realized that having a flagship sports car (a "fantasy car", if you will) was very important to a brand image, and to bring customers in. He even went as far as to say that it was worth it to the big picture, even if they lost a little on each car.

So don't be surprised if the RX7 is more expensive, and therefore, more limited. Especially since Mazda has the Miata that can serve as their "basic, lightweight, no frills" sports car.

---jps

i agree that you have to consider the power to weight ratio, and you can't say that the vette is in another league, maybe the zo6. i know a person who bought an s2000 because it kept up with the vette in top end-vettes are heavy

Vettes are heavy? I remeber an article that talked about all the ways the Z06 lost weight for the track including shaving down the windshield and a light weight exhaust.

Also, they have 405 HP.(that's a lot)

regular vette = 3200lbs
z06 = 3150
s2000 = 2800

"Heavy" is realtive, I guess 3150 might be considered heavy to an s2k owner. Top end? Hmmm... I don't know about that, but the stook would probably be more fun for auto-x...

my fault guys i was reffering to a stock c5-the z06 is in a different class than a c5

my dads friend couldn't run away from the s2k, but he was never overtaken

From slalom poll:

02 Acura NSX ............... 65.8
02 RSX Type-S ............. 66.8
98 McLaren F1 ............. 64.5
99 TT Coupe (turbo)..... 64.4
02 330Ci ...................... 63.1
00 Camaro SS ............. 60.0
03 Corvette Z06 ........... 67.5
99 Viper GTS-R.............. 65.3
01 SVT Mustang Cobra . 62.9
01 Accord EX V6 ........... 58.2
01 S2000 ..................... 65.9
01 Miata ....................... 62.7
01 Maxima SE................ 60.4
00 Jetta GLX ................. 61.2


Z06 is faster in the slalom, so I guess all that extra weight didn't hurt it so bad on the track afterall, and the HP/Weight ratio on a Z06 is better than the S2000: (If my calculations are correct)

Z06 7.77 Lbs per 1HP
S2000 11.66 Lbs per 1HP


So I guess the only time that extra weight would hurt is if you were trying to ship the car with FEDEX.

they were on the highway not a road course, and i doubt they were both professional drivers-and yes the vette is heavier than the s2k-if i were to put 300 horses in an s2k then what-the vette will loose

well being that the s2k has NO low end torque, it'll likely loose initially to the 'vette everytime during acceleration, coming out of a corner, and maybe even 1/4-mile

'vette and s2k are not in the same class of sports cars, the same way that a civic si is not in the same class as the s2k

Having a faster slalom or higher lateral Gs doesn't necessarily translate to faster track or auto-x times (especially auto-x). For example, the MKIV Supra was nearly as fast in the slalom and pulled almost as much lateral acceleration as the FD, but the FD is generally faster around a track and much faster at auto-x.

Also, having low torque doesn't really have an effect on track times, due to this thing called "downshifting". :cool:

Please. S2000 v. Z06? I think the Z06 beats the S2000 in every objective measure. The Z06 is truly a world-class sports car. The S2000, as good as it is, just ins't in the same league. Sorry.

Regarding the fourth gen RX-7, I would really like to see Mazda do what so many other manufacturers do -- build a high performance version to create brand equity, and then sell the lower performance version to the masses. For example, all Mustangs benefit from the image created by the 2003 SVT Cobra -- all Vette's benefit from the Z06, etc. This brand equity then translates into additional sales of base model Mustangs and Vettes.

So, assuming that Mazda builds a 1.5L rotary, use that as the base motor, with about 300 hp. Then, breathe on that motor a bit and offer a high performance RX-7 making roughly 400 hp. Mazda may not make any money on the high performance version, but presumably it will boost sales of the base model.

I also like this scheme becuase buyers will be able to purchase the level of performance they desire -- i.e., those who want the supercar will be able to buy it, while the platform will simultaneously serve the needs of individuals who are satisfied with decent, but not spectacular performance.

Anyway, I'd rather see Mazda adopt a marketing scheme such as this than pursuea "one size fits all" approach, especially if it means neutering the next gen RX-7.

FWIW,

I think the best part of buying cars like the FD is that you can continue to mod the car after you buy it. If done tastefully and carefully, it can turn the car into your personal vehicle, and help it perform much better than many stock supercars. with 61k, you can turn an FD into a much more aggressive car than a corvette. american cars, while tuneable, do not have as much aftermarket backing, limiting their ability to grow with the driver...

C'mon now, There's this guy named Lingenfelter(sp?) who'll do a little tinkering with a Z06 and nothing(well close to nothing) can touch it.

For a small fee of $49995, of course

check out http://www.lingenfelter.com/pac725ttls1y.asp

What about the Neon SRT-4
 

Nobody has mentioned the Neon SRT-4! Yes you can talk about the build quality but some of us (myself included) care about the speed first and the SRT-4 doing 0-60 in 5.6 seconds is amazingly fast for a car that is priced under $20,000. I don't want to offend anybody but I have been seriously considering an RX-8 but it is just too damn slow for me. It is a gorgeous car and I still may get one for my wife but it needs more grunt.

If you really care about the speed, you'll realize that 0-60 times don't mean a damn thing.

And considering the Neon is very much like the WRX in that at the top end of the speed spectrum, it sucks... you go right ahead and get it.

In the end it will still be a Neon, that's FWD and boring.

I'm no fan of torque steer and would never buy one, but I would not call it boring. All the reviews I have read have given it a lot of praise. As for no top end, sports compact car did the quarter in 14.2 @ 99.5 as shown in the following link:


http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ro.../012scc_dodge/


Personally, if you can afford an RX8 and are into a point and shoot fast turbo car, I'd go for EVO 8 (if you can grab one at MSRP). Its faster and has got terrific handling.

Unless, of course, you like to drive at the local drag strip, as I do on occassion. For people who like to race in a straight line (yes, some of us do, and it's as valid as any other sort of racing), a FWD car that runs a low 14 second 1/4 at 100 mph is exciting -- and that's at the stock power level.

I'm sure the guys driving a sporty $30K+ RX8 are going to feel good when handed their a$$e$ by a sub $20K Neon (and yes, it will happen in at least one objective measure).

But I probably have it all wrong.

And one more comment about the Z06. Someone was saying that an S2000 kept up with one on the highway?!?!?! I just don't see that happening. The Z06 turns 115+ mph in the 1/4, stock, versus about 100 for the S2000. When these two cars line up on the highway, the result is called a massacre. And please, no grandstanding about highway racing. I'm just making a point here.

I totally agree with you on that one however I have one major problem which makes life difficult for me. I only buy American. The only reason I was looking at an RX-8 is because of its association with Ford. Flame away, I realize that American cars do not have the quality of others but I've always bought American. Even at that I still went to talk to a dealer about the EVO but he wanted $7,000 over sticker - no thanks. My Contour SVT has been great for 130,000 miles but I gave in yesterday and put a deposit on a SRT-4.

Well, you could say Mitsu has an association with Daimler Chrysler, or Subaru has one with GM if you're justifying like that. ;)

I like the SRT-4 - not sure if I'd buy one, but glad it's out there. Of course, I liked the old Dodge GLH cars too. Rude and crude but who cares?

Although if straight line performance was my thing, a Mustang would be hard to pass up, particularly the next gen if you could wait.

Well, the cars I am considering over the RX-8 are listed below (although if I could comfortably afford the RX-8, there would be no contest).

-Mazdaspeed Protege. Nothing else touches it for $27k (canadian). 95% sure I'll end up in one soon.
-Ford Focus SVT. (dealers are discounting)
-Used Ford Contour SVT (screaming bargain on the used car market)
(yes I know all the above are FWD, but the Focus and the Protege don't constantly remind you of it. In the Protege, it is amazing how good the suspension is, and how transparently the drivetrain does its job.)
-Used BMW 3-series. Damn these hold their value well, unfortunate for the buyer. :)

The Contour SVT is really a fantastic car for the money. It handles unbelieveably well stock and you can get Koni adjustable shocks and Eibach springs like I did and it will blow you away. If you need any advice on the Contour let me know. You can also go to www.contour.org and get a lot of info there. The car has been extremely reliable and a great performer. With the few mods (okay maybe more than a few) that I have such as headers, y-pipe, exhaust, intake, electric supercharger, short shifter, brakes, suspension and a few other things, the car can mess with just about anything out there. Except for the obvious of course. Maintainance is pretty cheap as long as you know what to look out for. (water pump) I think I may have just convinced myself to keep mine!!!

-Right on.