neit_jnf

Thats what I read in one of the local rotary forums...

Oil filter relocated to bottom of engine and extra oil injectors in the 2009 Renesis?

Anyone know?

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

i don't see how they can relocate the oil filter to the bottom of the engine, there's almost no space down there since, you know, the engine itself sits so low to the ground...

Razz1

Where did you pick this rumor up?

Duke15

They had to move the oil pan & filter due to changing to a diesel engine...

JRichter

Provide the link to the forum so we can analyze...

neit_jnf

i saw it in one of the PR rotary forums, you have to be registered to see it and it was only a one line comment about it, in spanish btw. www.rotorespr.net

since I read here that there were some changes to the oiling system then I saw this rumor over there as well, Im curious.

zoom44

yes it is true. also different oil pan and the oil coolers are taller. this is what we have been saying about "new oiling system" but didnt have all the specifics available in hard copy just yet.

sorry was waiting until i had pics to post or docs from mazda. the filter is down under now and there are 3 injection points instead of two. check the 16x photos and you can see the extra injection points on that.

Spin9k

Anything else you know and were waiting until you had pics or docs??? Be nice to focus on anything (and anything else) meaningful for a change 'stead of just being pissed looking at its plastic surgery face-do.

neit_jnf

any benefits from relocating the filter? I understand the other changes but why move the filter? We will now have to crawl under the car to change it!

zoom44

well if you're under the car opening the drain you can just reach up and undo the filter really i dont know the why- one of the reasons i have not posted. i only know some of the what, without any explanations or details .... yet. i was told the oil metering was "electronic" now but again havent pressed for info because i assumed the details would be forthcoming.

ill see what i can find

neit_jnf

i thought oil metering was already electronically controlled, i know it is on my fd. it was mechanical in my 12a fb.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

noooooo i like the fact that i can change my oil w/o going under the car (thanks fumoto valve!)

sucks this'll no longer be an option for the new oiling system engines...

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

extra injector? sweet.
The taller oil coolers is also a nice change for people in warmer climates

zoom44

which is why i didnt press, figured teh details will come at some point

Razz1

Damn... I'm still keeping mine.

Umm.. go back to stock get high trade in value.....

Nah.... 16x will be here soon.

New Yorker

Finally, a reason why I might prefer an '09.

Raptor75

Agreed! The car is pig ear ugly but I would like the revised oil system. I have to also assume the transmission has been beefed up, but I have no proof of this. I only know the Reverse gear has been moved so we know it is a different trans and I assume they wouldn't put a weaker one in. I also like the unequal diameter axles to help reduce wheel hope under hard acceleration.

whitebeau

lol, i'm definitely waiting for the16x .. Or the New Corolla. Interesting on the oil filter change. I question the reason for a 3rd injection points. Guess we have to wait for the official spec sheet, I hope that additional injector can be incorporated to the pre 09's. That would be a worthwhile upgrade i think.

Easy_E1

iTrader: (2)

Yes. That is all.

rotarygod

The new location for the oil filter is simple to get to. You probably wouldn't even need to get under the car rather than just lie on the ground next to it and reach for it. Of course you aren't draining your oil pan this way though. As Charlie pointed out, it's very easy while you are down there. Right now you need to be a contortionist with damn strong arms to get to it.

Easy_E1

iTrader: (2)

Small problem. It's covered by a panel.

chancejat

iTrader: (2)

maybe they moved the oil injectors so they wouldnt foul the spark plugs a.k.a. flood anymore.....

rotarygod

They didn't move the oil injectors. They added 2 more. The 4 on the engine now are in the same place. There is now 1 in the middle of the housing but not directly between them. It's a little higher up on the housing. This way the middle of the apex seal gets lubricated. This is how it should have always been done as the middle is where the apex seal is hottest and needs the most lubrication. The 13B engines had their oil injectors centered on the housing but only 1 on each. On the 1st and 2nd gen RX-7's there was also an injector in each primary intake runner on the lower intake manifold. This way oil got mixed with the air well and directly lubricated the center of the apex seal.

The reason why the Renesis has both of it's oil injectors pointing diagonally towards the sides is actually to lubricate and cool the corner seals which now get exposed to hot exhaust gasses. They don't on a peripheral port engine. The downside to this was that some of this oil doesn't get burned nearly as well as it does getting injected directly into the center of the housing. This could lead to the side seals getting carbon locked. This led to the development of the wedge shaped side seal on the Renesis that helps force carbon out of the side seal grooves. The effects of this oil injection technique issue is still seen on the Renesis however in the form of carbon buildup in the intake and exhaust ports.

Since much of the oil metering goes towards the sides of the rotors and little actually lubricates the apex seals where they need it the most, they have a tendency to warp a little bit and wear faster. This can have multiple issues. An obvious one is potential engine longevity. Another issue is compression. As these seals get too hot and warp slightly, they don't seal as well and the engine doesn't build the dynamic compression ratio that it should have if the seals were lubricated properly. This is most certainly one reason why there are inconsistent power numbers from various cars. Along with this, mileage may also suffer to an extent. This hypothesis seems to be reinforced by the fact that many people that premix tend to get better gas mileage. Their apex seals are lubricated properly. These engines also show less wear upon teardown.

The oil metering pumps on the RX-8 also seem to be inconsistent. Some people report little to no oil consumption from the OMP. This is only making the apex seal issue worse. While the engine may run for a long time this way, fatigue is slowly setting in. Nothing may be noticable as power may only be down slightly. At some point this fatigue may rear it's ugly head all at once in the form of a broken apex seal. This too seems to be supported by the randomness in which engines have been reported to fail.

Also take oil temperatures into account. Too high oil temperatures aren't good. The oil in a rotary rejects about a third of the total engine heat. That's alot. If the apex seals are already too hot, and additional engine heat is going to be exagerrated even more. Not good news on the apex seals.

When you put all of this together you can really paint a good picture as to what has been going on with all of the power irregularities on the dyno, the mileage inconsistencies that are reported, the engine failures reported, and the engines that dealers have said need to be replaced even though the cars seemed to run fine to the owners. It all fits together and is tied to the location of the oil metering jets.

The solution seems obvious now. Lubricate the apex seals where it's needed most. The center. They are keeping the oil metering jets that are already saving the corner seals but now they are finally dealing with the apex seals. The rotary was always a very reliable engine. Why? The RX-7's lubricated the center of the apex seals. The race engines all use premix which also lubricates the center of the seals. Proper attention yields reliable results.

I for one am very happy to see this new setup. It shows that they've analyzed the issue extensively and are taking care of it. What "should" we expect to see with these changes to the oil metering system? We should see more consistent gas mileage reported. We should see more consistent dyno results and the average will probably be higher than what it is now. Probably more on par with the few people that have gotten higher numbers than the rest. We should see fewer engine failures. Keep in mind I'm using the word "should" and not "will". Time will tell but I'm excited.

DOMINION

My Friend Mike took pics but you cant see the replacement of the oil filter in the pics. It just looks like our 8. If you want I'll repost them when I get home.

I like the oil filter down under lol no more oil running down the side of my engine
-Gil

Easy_E1

iTrader: (2)

Very nice RG.
That would explain a lot that has been happening to the engines.
This goes along the lines of the old school 13B that had the Oil Metering in the carburetor float bowls. Premix. That's why I never saw the kind of failures back then as they are having now.
Mazda tried to improve and finally realized that the old way was the most efficient. In a new delivery method though.
Makes sense though with the premix fans fluctuation in numbers, HP and MPG. This is going to be a good thing for Mazda and the Renesis should this work as described.
Oh Happy Day.