RX-Nut

Quoted from the R&T RX-8 Special Mag..

R&T: Because the RX-8's rotary engine is naturally aspirated, did you have concerns about the lack of low and mid range torque?

Katabuchi: "Not really. Of course, if you compare the RX-8's Renesis to the twin turbo 13B powerplant of the RX-7, low and mid range torque is down. However, we didnt want to give the RX-8 a pure sports car, head snapping feel. We wanted to give it smoothness and linearity. So when you step on the throttle, you're not violently jerked around in the cabin, but accelerated in a smooth, pleasant way. And as with the suspension, those who want more power will be able to customize the car in their own way, whether it be in the form of a turbocharger or supercharger kit."

Well folks.. take that however you wish..

Maximus

That is what I don't understand. The 8 is being presented as a pure/full blooded/true/down to the bones sports car in every meaning of the word, YET Mr. Katabuchi, you didn't what to give it a pure sports car, head snapping feel...WHY??? Frankly speaking that statement was disturbing but its not gonna stop me anyway :-)

RobDickinson

Why? because there trying to sell lots of them and the last 7 has a reputation for being a bit to extreem for most people.

Puppy1

If the 8 was being presented as a PURE sports car it would have 2 doors, 300 hp and it would be called "RX-7."

RotorMotor

Negative Ghost Rider. The 8 is a four-door, sport crossover, not a pure sports car. It was never meant to be the fastest ride around, but rather a nice mix of sport and sensibility. Like Puppy said, the RX-7 was (and with a little luck will be again) Mazda's flagship sportscar.

Maximus

Rotor Motor,
Did you read the R&T RX-8 suppliment? You will find the word 'sports' everywhere :-) I hope no one takes me wrong as I love the 8 for what it offers. I only dont understand Katabuchi's statement about not giving it that head snapping feel. Why not? I mean look at some of the +/- 30K range so called sports cars, (which some of them aren't by definition), these days that give you the same head snapping feel he's talking about. On the other hand just one look at the RX8 and it screams 'sports'! Are 'sports' and 'pure sports' cars two different things ? Well I guess in the end our RX-8 is REALLY a sports car like no other :-) styling like no other, a package like no other, and (linear) acceleration like no other as well :-)

med_mx6

i'm going to probably buy an RX-8 regardless, but i think mr. katabuchi is merely making excuses. what better explanation is there than the "oh, yeah... we intended it to be 'lacking' in low/mid range torque... because it... um... is more comfortable that way. yeah, that's it!"

but then again, i could easily be convinced they are going to pack it all into the new RX-7.

wakeech

well, think about the differences between the RX-8 and some of the other "sports coupes", eh?? it's somewhere more in between an RSX-S or Celica-GTS and a G35C, performance right in the middle (closer to the upper end), functionality between a sports coupe and a sedan (well, more than those three cars, actually), with a price tag right in the middle (closer to the lower end), with anemities abounding... it's pretty quick in the corners, but with a pretty nice ride; it's pretty small and light, but with room enough for four; it's pretty fast, but with a very quiet and very smooth engine... it's just the kind of tradeoffs this car has made.

RotorMotor

Hey, I'm not arguing with ya that it definitely looks sporty, but it's clear from the design of the car that it was targeted at a much broader audience that just the sports car drivers. And with that broader audience comes more preferences for how a car should look, feel, drive, etc. It's not likely that may people would buy a Corvette (for example) as a family outing car. The RX-8 on the otherhand will suit that function just fine and be far more fun to drive than a mini-van or SUV.

I think Mazda took the right approach. Design a car (especially since it's the first return of the rotary in a decade) that will appeal to as many people as possible and let those that want more performance enhance it as they see fit (or wait until the Mazdaspeed version is released). The target audience for this car is much braoder than that of a Vette, or a Viper, or a Porsche....

Goldenhue22

Personally, I don't street race and I don't race on a track. I'm not a rotary lover nor a Mazda purist. My '95 Lumina has got to go before it explodes and the *8* seems like a great sports car with a reasonable price tag. *Most* of the people that buy this car will fall into that category however I am aware that the mojority or people on this forum do not. The low end torque debate is a non-issue for me and looking at it from an objective viewpoint, Mr. Katabuchi is just making excuses. What is he gonna say, yeah we know it's low and that is the way it is. The reason why they made it like that is to keep the price down. That was one of the major reasons the RX-7 didn't sell well. It was too darn expensive. So in order to keep the price down, this was what had to be done. I hope we don't see threads about the torque when the car does car out since everyone here knows about it.

That statement it so wrong. This car was NOT designed to a broader audience than just sports cars. Only people looking for a sports car would even consider this car. For you to defend them by saying people that are in the market for a family sedan, would buy this car if it had low, low-end torque and NOT buy it because it had good low-end torque is ridiculous. The statement is ridiculous to begin with because no one looking for a family sedan would buy an *8* regardless.

To make this car as a "family car" is crazy IMO. While it does have a decent back seat, I for one would never use this car as a family car. It is just too small and I would feel safe carrying my children in the back seat. Of course it is more fun to drive than a mini-van or an SUV. However, NO ONE in the market for a mini-van would consider this car regardless of torque.

That is like saying I want a hamburger without the meat.
This car would appeal to everyone if it had good low-end torque. The reason this car is appealling to more people is because of the price...period. You can't compare a 70K Viper or Porsche to the *8*. If a Viper was around 30K and you could choose between the 2, almost everyone would choose the Viper.

Again it all comes down to price. I really wish people would stop talking about torque. If it bothers you, then don't buy the car. I love it when people say *stuff* about the torque and then follow-up by saying, well I'll buy it anyway. If that's the case, then stop talking about it too. Everyone knows the problem and it should be a non-issue by now. Everyone knows what they are getting in this car. Stop talking about the torque and start talking about *NEW* stuff about the car.

GH22

Goldenhue22

That should be *WOULDN'T* feel safe... BTW

Lensman

Any questions?

zoom44

yes it was . that's why it has those extra doors and good size room in the back seats.

i would. one of my other choices is a bmw 3 series.

that's a real shame. Mazda has gone out of it's way to make this car safer than it has to be to combat ideas like yours. besides all of the airbags and structural reinforments meant to stop incursions into the passenger areas, it also comes equipped with the isofix child seat attachments specifically to put children safely in the back.

you sure can compare cars of grossly different price points. in fact the handling of the 8 has already been likened to that of porsches. I would like to think i would take the viper but in fact i couldn't because it doesn't seat four. i don't have the money to buy both even if they were both 30k.

Now on that we agree! time to talk about something else. Anyone know what the horn sounds like?Wiggles?:D

Skyline Maniac

The RX8 is being compared to the Integra-R (RSX-S) Altezza (IS300) Celica GTS and Honda S2000 in Japanese market. (The RX is compared very favorably to the cars in its class) This is purely base on pricing points and the audience the RX8 attracts. I don't see why there is so much commotion surrounding what Katabuchi said. The RX8 is a sporty 4 door/2door cross over, it's not a pure sport car. Mazda needs to be able to prove the reliability of the rotary before they can sell any of them. It is better to have a moderately powered NA plant that is highly reliable as opposed to a monster rotary that's unreliable. The general public's opinion on the Turbo RX7 is that the engine is very unreliable. Mazda has to change that image! I don't see what's the problem with the Renesis, I don't hear anyone complaining the S2000 and Acura RSX-S not having enough torque.

People keep comparing the RX8 to the 350Z and G35C.... I really don't see a comparison. The Z is a no-compromise 2 seater roaster, and the G35C is a luxury coupe that competes with the BMW 330. Both these cars have 270+ torque, but they are both quite heavy. Heavy means understeer, understeer means no fun in tight corners. The RX8 is more like the Celica/Integra/S2000 in that it is a light car with quick handling and high revving engine. It just so happens the design of the back end of the RX8 allows you to hold 4 people instead of 2.

RotorMotor

GH22,

Your argument is so full of holes I could pick it into a million pieces, but I think people would get tired of scrolling after a few dozen points. Besides, I think Zoom already did a pretty decent job.

Skyline, good points. I too am sick of the comparison. The RX-8 fits a niche that, hopefully, will appeal to a wide range of people including: folks that like to bring their friends along to the club, while still being able to take their car out the track on weekends, familys (and yes, this car is plenty safe for kids), the younger generation who wants a fast, nimble, fun car that still has room for visitors (where I fall in), the die hard rotor-heads (where I hope to fall in some day :D ), etc.... That said, it's only natural to compare cars, especially when you're spending 1/2 your years salary on it (at least I am...) I agree that those cars don't fit in a perfect comparison, but they're about as close as you'll get.

Maximus

Katabuchi says turbocharger or supercharger. Isn't that going to create reliability problems for the renesis?

zoom44

no, because it was built to take boost.

edit: okay that was not the whole answer. it should have been "not if done correctly by a reputable, knowledgeable rotary tuner who also makes sure the proper tweaks are done to the ecu etc.."

ggreen29

Sports car or not?

Road & Track:
"Real sports cars aren't supposed to have four doors. This one does."
"...it's a very capable-handling, affordable rear-drive sports car with room for four people..."
"So what we have here is an execellent, civilized sports car that just happens to have four doors."

Automobile:
"The RX-8 is different, but it's a true sports car."

Motor Trend:
"But it's nicely balanced handling, combined with an engine that winds up evenly to its 9000-rpm redline, make the RX-8 an easy sports car to drive."

Car and Driver magazine:
"From the driver's seat, the new RX-8 is the best RX ever."
"Despite its engine's lack of wide-ranging power, the RX-8 ultimately delivered the greatest driving satisfaction combined with the best four person usability."

Car and Driver TV:
"With the RX-8, Mazda made good on their promise of making a more practical sports car."

MotorWeek CarKeys:
"The RX-8 may look a little odd, and have four doors like family sedan, but I got behind the wheel and there's no doubt that this is a real sports car."

And the naysayers...

AutoWeek:
Dutch Mandel: "RX-8 is a sports car as Godzilla is a house pet."
Mac Morrison: "...Mazda's sporty new RX-8. That's sporty, not sports car."

I think the ayes have it. And I can't wait til I have it...the sports car/coupe/sedanny thing with the rotor motor.

Goldenhue22

I'm glad the *8* has been "likened" to that of the Porsche in response to its handling. Too bad it doesn't beat the Porsche in any worthy category. And let's not even talk about comparisons with the Viper.

Second, you are so wrong by saying this car is trying to appeal to people in the family sedan and mini-van etc... genre. No way. I know you love this car and stuff, but think about it objectively; you really think people are going to be thinking..."hmmm, Dodge Caravan or Mazda RX-8". Or even, "hmmm, Caddy Escalade or Mazda RX-8.

Third, I should have said anyone "in their right mind" wouldn't use the *8* as a family car. If you do, more power to you however you are putting your family at risk no matter how many airbags are in it. It is just too small to warrant use as a family car. BTW the BMW 3 series has better safety ratings in EVERY category...so if you are thinking about that car as well, I'd go that way (if you are going to use it as your family car).

The Mitsu Eclipse has 2 back seats BTW and they aren't very practical. While you could fit someone back there, the room is very limited. The same goes for the *8*. There are 2 back seats but it is a tight fit...especially if you have anyone bigger than 5'11 driving the car, or soemone with long legs...the space vanishes quite quickly. Having back seats is a plus, however it doesn't qualify it as use as a family car. If you are using it that way, then that is a very selfish decision on your part.

It all comes down to price, that is what makes this car appealling. If this car was 10K more people have a lot of *other* options available to them.

People are so enthralled with the idea of getting this car they are blind to objective view points. That is why ratings on cars are by unbiased persons. If people took the ratings from Mazda as true, this car would beat its competition singel handedly.

Hercules

While some of what you say has merit, you seem to forget that in its price point... the RX-8 beats MOST cars.

Granted it's not as fast as most of the cars out there... but it handles great (best RWD in that price point imo), has useable rear-seats, looks appealing, has good build quality, and is priced very well.

I know if I had the money, I'd get an M3 Coupe, 6 speed. But I don't have 60k and the 'likening' of the RX-8 to the Porsche is a compliment but not a comparison.

I still fail to see how you'd be putting your family in more peril than most cars out there... it has great crash test ratings, airbags galore, and won't tip over like SUVs. Not to mention its braking is best in class, so that's another safety point.

I think you're entitled to your opinions but it seems to me you're a tad sore that the RX-8 is getting the praise it is... the fact of the matter is for what WE are looking for, a real-world car that we can have a blast in, and not waste all our money doing it..

The RX-8 is the best choice we can make. Period.

Skyline Maniac

"The RX-8 is the best choice we can make. Period."

:D That's quite a powerful statement.

Elara

Goldenhue, I think you're being a little bit harsh. Safety ratings on the RX-8 reportedly have been phenomenal. Granted, no official stats have been released for the US yet, but unless there is something that's changed big-time, it should rate very well here. And you know why I'm buying it? Because I plan on having kids in a few years, and I don't want to buy a sports car I'll have to give up when they start arriving. For you to start making generalizations like "'anyone in their right mind' wouldn't use the *8* as a family car car" is a little uncalled for. I plan to do just exactly that, as do several others here.

You are right about one thing- I doubt many people who would consider a minivan would consider an RX-8- I know I would *never ever* buy a minivan. Or an SUV, for that matter (no offense, of course, to anyone that has). But I do think some people (like me and my husband) will and have considered cross-shopping family sedans like the 3 series with the RX-8.

Rexor

Goldenhue

You don't seem to be listening to what people are telling you. A number of us, myself included, are buying this car because we can get the family in it on the limited occasions that we need to. That's not to say its our primary family car, or that we'd ever consider a mini-van, but it is competing with sedans. The inconvenience of bucking kids into car seats in a 2 door coupe has to be experienced to be appreciated. I don't think the term 'family' sedan tells us anything - that's a description of how the car is used, and means different things to different people. One friend of mine with a 5 series has no kids, another has 2 kids. So you tell me whether the 5-series is a 'family' sedan, or a 'sports' sedan, or just a plain 'ol 'sedan'.

Ahh......, so you're from the school that believes that as soon as you have kids, you need to go buy a 3-ton truck, complete with bumper stickers that say "my child was student of the month at ....". Personally, I'd take safe handling and maneuverability over mass, unless, as you suggest, the '8 design is just plain unsafe. I haven't seen published crash ratings for the '8, nor comparisons to the 3-series - have you seen data for this, or is it just a hunch based on your wordly experience.


Get over this 'family car' thing. Think sports sedan/coupe for some of us.

rxeightr

I never did claim I was 'in my right mind', as this is exactly part of the reason I chose the RX-8 over the Miata, Boxster, Z4. Why not have a Sports Car that I can take the 2 teenagers with the wife to Six Flags, or a Braves baseball game? The RX-8 will be for my family the only vehicle all four of us will fit in comfortably.

Also under consideration was the G35 Coupe, Accord EX Coupe & Beetle Convertible, however the G35 (head) & Beetle (shoulders & head) has less overall back seat room than the RX-8. The Accord quite simply was too bland looking for my not 'in my right mind' taste.

I never did claim that I was not 'selfish'. This is one of my greatest attributes. However, from the reviews so far, the RX-8 has much more room than a 2+2, and comparable back seat room to many sedans.

So the selfish part of me said, "Why not let your Sports Car have a very functional back seat".

Mazda may not have sold you, but they did exactly what they needed to......to sell me!

Maximus

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Katabuchi in R&T suppliment:
"But many of these people still expressed a desire to drive sports cars. Therefore, we thought it was a good idea to build a sports car that could also cater to their everyday lifestyles."

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R&T suppliment:
Question: With four doors, can the RX-8 really be considered a sports car?
Katabuchi's answer:
"Of course. A lot of factors go into defining what is a sports car, but the most important, I believe, are weight and size, which include the gerneral proportions of the car. Whether a car has four doors or two is secondary. And we made sure that the RX-8 had the low wieght of a GENUINE sports car as well as proper dimensions and proportions"

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Katabuchi in R&T suppliment:
"The one thing we were certain of was that our sports car have four door/seats."

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R&T Question:
What were the main concerns about the styling of the car?
Katabuchi Answer:
"We wanted it to look like a sports car, period."

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Katabuchi in R&T suppliment:
"However, we didn't want to give the RX-8 a pure sports-car, head-snapping feel. We wanted to give it smoothness and linearity."

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Katabuchi in R&T suppliment:
"This car will be no doubt be interpreted in many different ways, and there will be those who will say the RX-8 isn't a pure sports car. Thant can't be helped. However, I would like people to recognize the RX-8 as something new and fresh, step forward in the sports or sporty-car realm. If the RX-8 is seen in that light, it would make me very happy."