marranca

Hi guys,

I currently own a 97 BMW M3, which I bought certified-pre-owned three years ago. Now that the Bimmer has 82k on it and is out of warranty, I'm ready to trade into something else. I don't want to pay 50k for a new M3, and the new model is so heavy that I am not sure I'd like it anyway. I'm happy with my experience, but the 330i is too soft for me.

My car search is pretty much down to another CPO M3, a new G35, or an RX-8.

I test drove an RX-8 last week and loved the car. Due to traffic conditions I wasnt able to test the engine flat out, which leads to one of my questions:

Obviously the Renesis isn't going to have the low end grunt of an M3. I don't expect it. I am curious if the top-end power will make up for that. I am familiar with the feel of high-power, low-torque cars, and might like it as long as the overall acceleration - particularly top-end passing power - is close.

Has anyone here owned an M3? Curious for opinions. It's hard to compare 0-60 numbers... What I am looking for is passing performance. Say I dropped the RX-8 into 2nd gear at 45 and zinged passed someone on an uphill grade....

Anyone care to ramble?

Thanks!
--Joe M

mr_digital_uk

All I can say is that the RX-8 has a really, really flat torque curve over about 4.5k. Get it in the right gear and it seems to just smoothly accelerate past almost anything (5k RPM to 9k RPM).

If you expect low end grunt below that you'll be disappointed.

93rdcurrent

I traded my M3 in on my RX-8. I was seriously considering the '04 M3 but in the end I decided that the $26,000 was too much for the additional hp. I got almost everything else I wanted. I purchased a Ti grey GT with nav and a rear spoiler. I get more questions and looks with my RX-8 than I ever did with my M3. The car handles great and I like the instrument layout.

You are right about the power. The car has it and it will pass without a problem and has no problem climbing hills (I live on one). The RX-8 will not have the on the line power you're used to but it is not a huge difference either. In the beginning the car needs to be broken in and while you are doing that you will notice that it has less power but as you get closer to 2k miles you will feel it open up.

In the corners you will feel confident.

I love driving my RX-8 and I am glad I made the switch. Don't get me wrong I did love my M3 as well but the RX-8 has a level of exotic which I felt the M3 lacked. It is fast in its own right and you will not be too disappointed with the hp.

marranca

Very cool - that's exactly what I wanted to know. I'd gladly have traded low end torque for post-6000rpm power even in the M3, so it sounds like I will like the RX-8. Thanks!

Hard 8

I second everything above. You really need to take a longer test drive and get a better sense of whether you like its performance and acceleration at higher engine speeds. For the amount you're about to invest, it's worth doing more research.

BTW, I came from a 250 HP turbo Miata (2,340 pounds) that was able to stay dead even from a dead stop with a 315 HP 2003 M Roadster (on a track, of course). Even so, I am quite happy with the 8's acceleration, although for $500 the Canzoomer mod (read about it in the tech section) could make it even better.

Speed-ER doc

The main acceleration problem I have with the 8 is precisely what CZ's mod is expected to improve. That is, freeway passing in higher gears.

Say you are going 65 MPH in the left lane behind some a**hole who feels it is his job to regulate traffic. But there is another righteous citizen in the middle lane up ahead coming up fairly quickly. A 6 to 5 downshift in the 8 does NOT give you adequate acceleration to make your intended move with authority (imo).

The 6 to 4 shift is tricky, hard on the gearbox, and if done incorrectly, can be embarrassing and dangerous (if you hit 2nd as I have done).

This is the main improvement I personally hope to achieve with CZ's mod, and one that he has personally mentioned as a target.

Isn't anyone else frustrated with this? I have never driven an M3, but I'll bet you will notice this as one of the major differences. In almost every other scenario with the RX-8 (with the exception of off-the-line grunt), the car performs like a dream.

Genom

Thats why ya do a 6 to 3 shift my friend. 65MPH is only 6500RPM in 3rd. Your now driving a car that hits 90 in third gear comfortably. Use that high end RPM power! Plus at 65 your RIGHT in the sweet spot for 3rd to floor it and feel the powah.

Every time I do that on the highway I freak everybody out. It's always something like "Yuri! You just put it in thiiii... woah!"

Speed-ER doc

:p :p

Get those hornets buzzing, eh? Sounds like fun. I'm just not used to this car yet. The 5-4 shift in the Miata was great at high speeds, but the 6-5 in the RX is worthless.

javahut

Also, it might help to remember that the shifter in the 8 is detented in the center slot... 3rd & 4th gear. If you wanna go from 6th to 4th (although I'd never be doing 65 mph way up in 6th gear), just pop the shifter from 6th up into nuetral and pull back... don't pull it over to the left unless you want 1st or 2nd. And push it to the right if you want 5th & 6th. For 3rd & 4th, put no pressure left or right... just push it up to nuetral & push up for 3rd or pull back for 4th. The 8 will pretty much nail the correct gear you want every time like this, in my experience.

hotpot

I've had the 8 for 8 weeks now and am quite happy with it.
But I must admit that if I could afford it, I would have gone for the M3. I think that Marranco could be disappointed with the RX-8's lack of torque, having owned an M3.
The M3 is in a league of its own and should not be compared with the RX-8.

RobDickinson

Theres a UK owner who sild his E46M3 and bought an RX-8 thats totaly happy with the change.

The M3 will have more torque, more power, but its a heavy beast too.

Golfer

While I did not move from a M3, I had a 2000 Audi S4 which is quite similar in terms of performance, torque, handling as a M3 albeit with less steeriing feel due to the quattro (but waht grip!). While my 8 doesnt have the "push you back in teh seat feel of the twin turbo in the S$ it is quite quick....the biggest difference is in handling/feel...there is a little chicane by be which I would only be comfortable taking the S4 through at 45MPH...I have had the 8 through at over 50 and could probably do 55 with out a problem

marranca

Thanks everyone!

I just did a second test drive, and it didn't help. LOVE the rotary - was reasonably happy even with the low end torque (totally comfortable in traffic)... But it wasn't enough just yet to put the car over the top.

1/2" more headroom (big issue for me in the 8, and at 6'1" I never considered myself freakishly tall), 25 more horses, or anything other than a Bose stereo might have put it over the top... Unfortunately I am still undecided.

Hard 8

Dude:

My Sport model has 1.5" more headroom: No sun roof. It's also about 200 pounds (!!!!) lighter than the GT, and a bit cheaper. It's like going on a date with Oprah, then leaving her at the restaurant holding the bill.

Also, my base, non-Bose stereo is MUCH easier to upgrade. And the cloth seats are less flashy (or less pretty depending upon how you look at them) and very well executed.

Just FWIW.

racerdave

Yeah, I'm 6-1 with the same problem in the moonroof cars.

So I'm going for a Sport (no roof)... or maybe even a GT ordered in Canada (no roof).

velociti

iTrader: (1)

I have the good fortune of having a best friend who owns a '99 M3, and a brother who owns an '02 M3. I have put well over 150 miles on the E36 and have gotten about a half hour behind the wheel of the E46. I have also test driven an RX-8 and wound it to 7k rpm. Money no object between the three, I would probably choose the E36. It has a balance of power, lightness, and refinement that for me, is almost perfect. That being said, the new M3 is ridiculously fast, and doesn't feel heavy, regardless of its weight. You also have to take into account build quality. When you're buying an M3, it's not just the engine that you're buying. You're buying a quality suspension, transmission, interior etc. I don't have much experience driving the 8 (I hope to own one once I get out of college, however), but in my opinion, you would probably miss the M3 if you got rid of it. Note that I have nothing against the 8. If I had the money I would purchase one, but I would be more content with the E36, it's a great car.

Hard 8

I agree. It's an amazing car. However, the minute it's out of warranty and something goes wrong ....

Genom

As always it boils down to personal preference. I mean, we all buy what we like.

I can honestly say that for myself, even if my budget was 10K more, I still woulda gotten the 8.

marranca

GT ordered in Canada? Do they have different option combinations? Makes me wonder also about emissions standards and possibly higher engine output.

Aren't there a LOT of guys in this car's theoretical target market who are about 6'1" or taller? Seems like even a difference in the design of the seats would help. The manual seats seem to give me 1" more headroom - but of course you can't get manual seat adjustments with leather

marranca

Just saw Velociti's post - that's exactly my dilemma. The E46 isn't as racy or light as the E36, and even tho mine is seven years old it's still an awesome car. But in the past year, I've replaced the cat and both window motors (both just before my warranty ran out), and now I have dead power door locks. It's a tough car and I doubt I will ever have issues with the drivetrain or suspension, but it's starting to age.

I wish it was easier to find a replacement car! I love the 8, it just feels like it needs a bit more to be a suitable replacement. And I can't find any concrete info on whether there will really be a Mazdaspeed version.

racerdave

As for Canada, the GT package there offers the moonroof as a *separate* option.

Why the heck can't they do that here!??!

So, you can get all the GT goodies without a moonroof.

As for the rest of the stuff, it's the same. All of it. (except DRL's) It's a piece of cake to bring back to the US.

NickG

...and I'm struggling to decide whetherthe Rx8 offers anything more than my 325i!
Having driven an E46 M3 on a race track at a BMW drivers day I can't agree it's not as racy or light as an E36 M3. In these conditions the E46 M3 is simply spectacular. Ferocious acceleration and incredible handling poise. The thing can be driven absolutely sideways at ridiculous angles yet still retain an astounding feeling of balance and poise. I think the Rx8 is a wonderfully fluid and fun car but anyone who seriously reckons it can outgun and outdrive the E46 M3 is kidding themselves IMHO...

hasg

I own a rx8 and i'm not doubting it but you should check out the 2004 G35 coupe before you make your mind up.

///M-Spec

Hey marranca, I'm in the same boat you're in. I have a '98 M3/4 with 75k on it. The car will be out of CPO warranty in April. The E36 is such a good all-around car that its a tough, tough act to follow. However, with 75k on the dial, I think its time for something new. The car's been bullet-proof, but I don't relish changing out the clutch, putting in new shocks and refreshing all the rubber in the suspension; which the car will need in order to stay in tip top shape.

A new M3 is out of the question since my wife and I had a baby last year. A 330Ci is the next choice, but loaded up is over 40k and quite frankly isn't involving a drive as the 8.

Sorry to hear the 8 isn't going to do it for you. It is currently at the top of my list. Have you tried the G35 Coupe 6MT?


///M-Spec

BOOSTD 7

I'll be hanging onto my '99 M3 Convertible until they release an RX-8 Convertible. In the meantime I've ordered a 3.5" CAI, Euro 3.5" HFM, and will add exhaust and shocks/springs. The M has 73K miles on the ticker and I've never replaced anything on it. It's as solid as any car I've ever owned ... hopefully that won't change any time soon.