Squish Like Bug
05-30-2003, 07:56 AM
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Squish Like Bug
Earlier in the year I made a post referring to the movie Karate Kid, where Miyagi says "Either do Karate, or do not do Karate. Never halfway, or squish like bug". I then drew a reference to the RX-8, in that attempting to split the difference between a sports car and a sedan with the four-door sports car concept it would end up doing neither function exceptionally well.
In reading the posts the past few weeks, we have seen people complain about the real-world straight line performance, body roll, etc... some are calling the car more of a sedan than a sports car. What the truth is will remain to be seen, and depend on the personal tastes of those driving it. But I think it is safe to say the RX-8 does not offer the performance of a 350Z or G35c, or the sedan-like qualities of a 325i or G35, CTS, etc.
Obviously, the RX-8 will find plenty of happy owners. But compared to the initial 350Z feeding frenzy, the RX-8 has not had the same kind of buzz. A lot of dealers did not sell-out their preorders and cars are still available in some places.
Could it be the compromises are hurting the car? People who need a sedan will find plenty of options that are adequately sporting, with true sedan utility. For those who really want a sports car, more intense sports cars with less performance compromises are available, too. The RX-8 could be in the middle, and as I said, "Squish, like bug".
I am starting to think that Mazda should have forgotten the four door sports car but and just made a closed sports car like the
RX-7. If the car was smaller and a 2-door, it could be only 2,700 lbs and with the Renesis, there would be no straight-line performance complaints. Handling would be best in its class, and without the extra doors and the back seat, safety features for extra two passengers, etc this RX-7 could sell for under $27,000 nicely equipped. It would be a true spiritual successor to the first gen RX-7, and in my opinion, a runaway sales success, too.
OK- post away! Agree? Disagree? What do you think of my idea?
In reading the posts the past few weeks, we have seen people complain about the real-world straight line performance, body roll, etc... some are calling the car more of a sedan than a sports car. What the truth is will remain to be seen, and depend on the personal tastes of those driving it. But I think it is safe to say the RX-8 does not offer the performance of a 350Z or G35c, or the sedan-like qualities of a 325i or G35, CTS, etc.
Obviously, the RX-8 will find plenty of happy owners. But compared to the initial 350Z feeding frenzy, the RX-8 has not had the same kind of buzz. A lot of dealers did not sell-out their preorders and cars are still available in some places.
Could it be the compromises are hurting the car? People who need a sedan will find plenty of options that are adequately sporting, with true sedan utility. For those who really want a sports car, more intense sports cars with less performance compromises are available, too. The RX-8 could be in the middle, and as I said, "Squish, like bug".
I am starting to think that Mazda should have forgotten the four door sports car but and just made a closed sports car like the
RX-7. If the car was smaller and a 2-door, it could be only 2,700 lbs and with the Renesis, there would be no straight-line performance complaints. Handling would be best in its class, and without the extra doors and the back seat, safety features for extra two passengers, etc this RX-7 could sell for under $27,000 nicely equipped. It would be a true spiritual successor to the first gen RX-7, and in my opinion, a runaway sales success, too.
OK- post away! Agree? Disagree? What do you think of my idea?
05-30-2003, 08:01 AM
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BTW I had to cancel my Mini Cooper S order... realities at work tell me I should wait a while until things are more solid. Well, it is not like I am suffering with a G35 and a Miata 
. So, I can post here as a neutral observer. Who knows, if I fall for my RX-8 when it comes in, maybe I will do something stupid!
As a consolation prize I am getting a new digital camera, an 11.1 megapixel Canon 1Ds. It's the Ferrari 360 Modena Spyder of digital cameras... :-) I will be using it to photograph weddings for my friend's photo studio, as well as for personal use. It is an investment that will pay for itself, and in fact makes more sense than car #3.
. So, I can post here as a neutral observer. Who knows, if I fall for my RX-8 when it comes in, maybe I will do something stupid!As a consolation prize I am getting a new digital camera, an 11.1 megapixel Canon 1Ds. It's the Ferrari 360 Modena Spyder of digital cameras... :-) I will be using it to photograph weddings for my friend's photo studio, as well as for personal use. It is an investment that will pay for itself, and in fact makes more sense than car #3.
05-30-2003, 08:51 AM
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I've never been an RX enthusiast but this is the way I see it. I think you will get the 7 enthusiasts that see the 8 as not being true to the previous model and that it is not worthy enough to carry the torch. Despite that, it will still attract a new a market of people interested in the car. I'm one of those people for example.
05-30-2003, 08:59 AM
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Re: Squish Like Bug
Originally posted by DonG35Miata
In reading the posts the past few weeks, we have seen people complain about the real-world straight line performance, body roll, etc... some are calling the car more of a sedan than a sports car. What the truth is will remain to be seen, and depend on the personal tastes of those driving it.
In reading the posts the past few weeks, we have seen people complain about the real-world straight line performance, body roll, etc... some are calling the car more of a sedan than a sports car. What the truth is will remain to be seen, and depend on the personal tastes of those driving it.
Regards,
Gordon
05-30-2003, 09:12 AM
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I visited with my Mazda dealer yesterday for about 30 minutes. According to what I was told, they have had all their pre-orders sold out for some time, and are taking 'bunches' of orders for the RX-8 and are quoting deliveries around Christmas. My salesperson even closed another deal on the phone for an RX-8 while I was sitting there waiting for my VIN #. It was someone who had been in the previous day. Keep in mind this interest my dealer is seeing has been, up to this point, with very limited marketing. Only now are we beginning to see the ads in mags, billboards & TV.
If you have not heard, Mazda is supplying dealers who have met a certain sales point an RX-8 for demo purposes, and are scheduled to get them when the 1st allocations arrive. As my dealer put it, Mazda had to make this investment, because of the interest level they have already received, and it can be difficult to sell from an empty basket.
The dealer says they will have little problem selling the RX-8 once they have one to show, as there are so many people who want to see & feel one before they decide.
Performance differences between the autos mentioned on this thread are negligible, although I like the looks of all of them, and seriously considered each of them before deciding on the RX-8.
But my educated decision made the RX-8 the better vehicle for me.
If you have not heard, Mazda is supplying dealers who have met a certain sales point an RX-8 for demo purposes, and are scheduled to get them when the 1st allocations arrive. As my dealer put it, Mazda had to make this investment, because of the interest level they have already received, and it can be difficult to sell from an empty basket.
The dealer says they will have little problem selling the RX-8 once they have one to show, as there are so many people who want to see & feel one before they decide.
Performance differences between the autos mentioned on this thread are negligible, although I like the looks of all of them, and seriously considered each of them before deciding on the RX-8.
But my educated decision made the RX-8 the better vehicle for me.
05-30-2003, 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by RX8Lover
Actually, Mr. Miyagi said "SQUISH LIKE GRAPE!", not bug. Get your movie lines straight.
Actually, Mr. Miyagi said "SQUISH LIKE GRAPE!", not bug. Get your movie lines straight.
also better for a car board. I have never had to clear squished grapes from the front of my car after an interstate trip!You must be a Karate Kid fan. I have not seen the movie in years.
05-30-2003, 09:29 AM
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Personally, I don't care what the market thinks. The uniqueness of this car appeals to me because of its design and the rotary engine. Too many cars on the road today lack any sign of imagination. I once had a 1982 RX7 back when I was younger. I loved it. Now being older with kids the 8 seems perfect. Although I'll keep an eye out for the new 7 and maybe trade in on that in a few years.
05-30-2003, 09:31 AM
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I do not understand why people insist on writing poor things about a car that has not hit the streets in the US. I think it is unfair to compare the RX-8 to anything until we have had a chance to drive the freaken thing. I think these conversations are pointless. Lets wait and see.
05-30-2003, 09:44 AM
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The reason the Z "sold out" so fast is that it is a remake/sequel of the original. Notice now that it is NOT selling that well. Just like the movie "Matrix 2." Everyone came out the first few weeks. Now the movie is falling fast on the box office charts.
Had a new RX-7 been launched now, it would have easilly sold out to dedicated loyalists, then after a few months sales would normalize. How many current RX-7 owners have stated that they are going to pass on the 8 and wait for the 7?
The RX-8 is a whole new concept. It is an original. It will take word of mouth and first hand driving before people drop $33k. Many people are taking a wait and see approach.
I have always been a "first on the block" person. I like to research the hell out of everything I buy. This car is perfect for me. I am sure the car will sell very well as long as the production quality is excellent.
Had a new RX-7 been launched now, it would have easilly sold out to dedicated loyalists, then after a few months sales would normalize. How many current RX-7 owners have stated that they are going to pass on the 8 and wait for the 7?
The RX-8 is a whole new concept. It is an original. It will take word of mouth and first hand driving before people drop $33k. Many people are taking a wait and see approach.
I have always been a "first on the block" person. I like to research the hell out of everything I buy. This car is perfect for me. I am sure the car will sell very well as long as the production quality is excellent.
05-30-2003, 09:47 AM
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1. I saw and sat in the RX-8 last weekend at the Rev-it-up. As much if not more leg room in the back that ALL sports "sedans". My friend of 6'3'' in the back and me 6'1' in the back were very comforable.
2. They have not advertised! The advertising as been crap! Everyone I tell that I ordered a RX-8, they say "what?". If you told someone 350Z they knew exactly what you were talking about. You could not turn on the TV without seeing a Z commercial.
3. BACK SEATS! As a former Boxster owner. If it had back seat, I would still own it.
4. The major problem I see is that Mazda has been so low profile for 10 years except for the Miata that it is tuff to get the respect and Buzz back. Nissan has put out so many cool cars in the last 5 years it is mind blowing (of course all with one engine). Mazda needs to hire the Nissan marketing team for what ever they cost!!!
2. They have not advertised! The advertising as been crap! Everyone I tell that I ordered a RX-8, they say "what?". If you told someone 350Z they knew exactly what you were talking about. You could not turn on the TV without seeing a Z commercial.
3. BACK SEATS! As a former Boxster owner. If it had back seat, I would still own it.
4. The major problem I see is that Mazda has been so low profile for 10 years except for the Miata that it is tuff to get the respect and Buzz back. Nissan has put out so many cool cars in the last 5 years it is mind blowing (of course all with one engine). Mazda needs to hire the Nissan marketing team for what ever they cost!!!
05-30-2003, 10:04 AM
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Nope, I don't agree. Is the G35 coupe a failure? Certainly not! Yet it has far worse compromises IMHO. Have you sat in the back seat of one of those cars? I'm 5'10, and I can't come close to sitting up straight without hitting my head on the glass. My brother's 6'0" and he had a crick in his neck after about 5 minutes back there from staying hunched over. I have tons of room in the RX-8 back seats, and found them to be extremely comfortable. I could probably sit there for more time than I can sit in the driver's seat.
Now, I'm fairly impressed on paper with the G35 coupe, but the lack of a back seat removes it from consideration for most RX-8 buyers. The G35 sedan has plenty of room in the back, but do you expect that it will be able to keep up on the track with the RX-8? I doubt it. It's another extremely interesting car, but it's a full-fledged sedan, and I doubt the word "tossable" will be used to describe it unless you're comparing it to a Buick. I drove a friend's G35 coupe and wasn't impressed. It's very quick, but it feels incredibly heavy (coming from a Miata...). I would absolutely never consider buying one, because it wasn't as fun to drive as the 2 seaters out there and it can't carry 4 people like the sedans. Yet look at how it was received by the reviewers! It fails the test by a far wider margin than I expect the RX-8 to, yet it's doing extremely well in the marketplace.
I believe there is a significant population of people who want a sports car (like the 350Z, perhaps) who simply cannot justify it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the people who want the 350Z/Miata/MR2/S2000/etc. but can't justify their lack of practicality significantly outnumber the people who have purchased those cars. Those buyers have absolutely *no* choice in the market right now other than cars that are significantly more boring. Can a Mazda 6 really satisfy someone who wants a Miata? Being a Miata owner and a Rev-it-up participant I can emphatically say "no!". Can a Maxima/Altima/G35 sedan satisfy someone who wants a 350Z? Closer (for the G35), but again, they would need the sedan for any remotely usable back seats. I very highly doubt the G35 sedan can really satiate someone's desire for a Z. RSX/TSX to the S2000? For me it's not even close, and I suspect many others feel the same way.
The RX-8 seems to be truly different. The back seat is extremely comfortable for someone my size. The trunk isn't huge, but it's plenty big enough for the sorts of things most people will need to take. Can it satisfy the person who wants one of those true sports car? It should come far closer than any other car on the market.
I think the best test is to compare it to the G35 coupe, which is an undeniable success. The G35c has some advantages - namely torque - but to me it's the prime example of what you're talking about. Not enough practicality to compete with the sedans, not nimble enough to compete with the sports cars. I truly expect the RX-8 to exceed the sporty character of the G35c (while losing the push-in-the-back feel) and I know for an absolute fact it obliterates the G35c in sedan-like room and comfort. Even if (as I suspect many will argue) the G35c is more of a sports car, it cannot possibly overcome the huge advantage in rear seat comfor the RX-8 has. Remember, this is a serious consideration because that's the untapped market Mazda's aiming for.
One question - Is it true that the manual transmission on the G35c is only offered starting at $35k? I tried to make one on www.edmunds.com and couldn't get the manual without leather. If that's the case, then the RX-8 has more than a $6k price advantage over the G35 coupe for the manual transmission cars. I know that the G35c will have a lot more options at that price, but if I were looking I'd get absolutely 0 options other than those necessary for the manual tranny. $6k is a lot of money! Even if the RX-8 falls short of the G35c, $6k in upgrades will certainly bring it up to and well beyond the performance of the G35 coupe and it will retain the extra room in the back seats.
Now, I'm fairly impressed on paper with the G35 coupe, but the lack of a back seat removes it from consideration for most RX-8 buyers. The G35 sedan has plenty of room in the back, but do you expect that it will be able to keep up on the track with the RX-8? I doubt it. It's another extremely interesting car, but it's a full-fledged sedan, and I doubt the word "tossable" will be used to describe it unless you're comparing it to a Buick. I drove a friend's G35 coupe and wasn't impressed. It's very quick, but it feels incredibly heavy (coming from a Miata...). I would absolutely never consider buying one, because it wasn't as fun to drive as the 2 seaters out there and it can't carry 4 people like the sedans. Yet look at how it was received by the reviewers! It fails the test by a far wider margin than I expect the RX-8 to, yet it's doing extremely well in the marketplace.
I believe there is a significant population of people who want a sports car (like the 350Z, perhaps) who simply cannot justify it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the people who want the 350Z/Miata/MR2/S2000/etc. but can't justify their lack of practicality significantly outnumber the people who have purchased those cars. Those buyers have absolutely *no* choice in the market right now other than cars that are significantly more boring. Can a Mazda 6 really satisfy someone who wants a Miata? Being a Miata owner and a Rev-it-up participant I can emphatically say "no!". Can a Maxima/Altima/G35 sedan satisfy someone who wants a 350Z? Closer (for the G35), but again, they would need the sedan for any remotely usable back seats. I very highly doubt the G35 sedan can really satiate someone's desire for a Z. RSX/TSX to the S2000? For me it's not even close, and I suspect many others feel the same way.
The RX-8 seems to be truly different. The back seat is extremely comfortable for someone my size. The trunk isn't huge, but it's plenty big enough for the sorts of things most people will need to take. Can it satisfy the person who wants one of those true sports car? It should come far closer than any other car on the market.
I think the best test is to compare it to the G35 coupe, which is an undeniable success. The G35c has some advantages - namely torque - but to me it's the prime example of what you're talking about. Not enough practicality to compete with the sedans, not nimble enough to compete with the sports cars. I truly expect the RX-8 to exceed the sporty character of the G35c (while losing the push-in-the-back feel) and I know for an absolute fact it obliterates the G35c in sedan-like room and comfort. Even if (as I suspect many will argue) the G35c is more of a sports car, it cannot possibly overcome the huge advantage in rear seat comfor the RX-8 has. Remember, this is a serious consideration because that's the untapped market Mazda's aiming for.
One question - Is it true that the manual transmission on the G35c is only offered starting at $35k? I tried to make one on www.edmunds.com and couldn't get the manual without leather. If that's the case, then the RX-8 has more than a $6k price advantage over the G35 coupe for the manual transmission cars. I know that the G35c will have a lot more options at that price, but if I were looking I'd get absolutely 0 options other than those necessary for the manual tranny. $6k is a lot of money! Even if the RX-8 falls short of the G35c, $6k in upgrades will certainly bring it up to and well beyond the performance of the G35 coupe and it will retain the extra room in the back seats.
Last edited by Rich; 05-30-2003 at 10:06 AM.
05-30-2003, 10:09 AM
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I agree with the fact that until I drive the 8 I won't know if I truly like it. But from what I've read and researched this looks like an impressive vehicle! I've always loved cars that have had great lines and the RX-8 (IMO) has luscious lines and I look forward to actually touching,sitting, and driving her hard.:D
05-30-2003, 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by roachman
The major problem I see is that Mazda has been so low profile for 10 years except for the Miata that it is tuff to get the respect and Buzz back. Nissan has put out so many cool cars in the last 5 years it is mind blowing (of course all with one engine). Mazda needs to hire the Nissan marketing team for what ever they cost!!!
The major problem I see is that Mazda has been so low profile for 10 years except for the Miata that it is tuff to get the respect and Buzz back. Nissan has put out so many cool cars in the last 5 years it is mind blowing (of course all with one engine). Mazda needs to hire the Nissan marketing team for what ever they cost!!!
No amount of marketing has helped the M45. As of last month, my Infiniti dealer had only sold ONE M45 since product launch last year, vs. dozens of G35s. I think they should have shoehorned the V8 into the G35 and made a G45, rather than introducing the ugly M.
According to the response here, Mazda may have hit the mark. I guess I find myself wanting a more hard-edged sports machine than the RX-8. Maybe I will be happy in a new RX-7 sometime not long ago... maybe cancelling the Mini order will pay off in the long run.
05-30-2003, 10:33 AM
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I think another factor is the absence of choices in this car category (however that is defined....). At one time we had the Supra, 3000GT, Stealth, nice fat, powerful sports cars. For the last few years it seems the sports segment is mainly of the toy variety (Boxster, Miata, 911, MR2, S2000, etc.). Like many on this forum, I researched for over a year and found nothing in the market I liked (350Z is sweet, but too tiny).
My fear is that once we start driving ours around, the 8 will become another Durango or Eclipse in that they are everywhere. Just like mass appeal killed disco (ugh), it takes the fun out of it for me if too many people get 8s.
My fear is that once we start driving ours around, the 8 will become another Durango or Eclipse in that they are everywhere. Just like mass appeal killed disco (ugh), it takes the fun out of it for me if too many people get 8s.
05-30-2003, 10:41 AM
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The 350Z is a compromise car because they had to build it on a luxury sedan/SUV platform, so even as a small 2-seater, it is a heavy pig of a car.
The WRX/Evo are basically cheap, rickety economy sedans wrapped around a turbo and AWD.
The Audi TT is just a plush interior and a few Audi logos slapped on a Volkswagen Golf platform. Also, Consumer Reports ranked it dead last in its class for reliability.
How is the RX-8 more of a compromise than any of these cars?
The WRX/Evo are basically cheap, rickety economy sedans wrapped around a turbo and AWD.
The Audi TT is just a plush interior and a few Audi logos slapped on a Volkswagen Golf platform. Also, Consumer Reports ranked it dead last in its class for reliability.
How is the RX-8 more of a compromise than any of these cars?
05-30-2003, 10:53 AM
#17
Originally posted by m477
The 350Z is a compromise car because they had to build it on a luxury sedan/SUV platform, so even as a small 2-seater, it is a heavy pig of a car.
The WRX/Evo are basically cheap, rickety economy sedans wrapped around a turbo and AWD.
The Audi TT is just a plush interior and a few Audi logos slapped on a Volkswagen Golf platform. Also, Consumer Reports ranked it dead last in its class for reliability.
How is the RX-8 more of a compromise than any of these cars?
The 350Z is a compromise car because they had to build it on a luxury sedan/SUV platform, so even as a small 2-seater, it is a heavy pig of a car.
The WRX/Evo are basically cheap, rickety economy sedans wrapped around a turbo and AWD.
The Audi TT is just a plush interior and a few Audi logos slapped on a Volkswagen Golf platform. Also, Consumer Reports ranked it dead last in its class for reliability.
How is the RX-8 more of a compromise than any of these cars?
and why must one think "compromise"? it seems more accurate to think of the RX-8 as the car Mazda had envisioned from the beginning...it IS a 4 door 4 seat sports car, the way it was meant to be...
and here's a quote i made from another topic:
"The question remains: Which cars are competitors? The answer is: The RX-8 does not have competitors. It is unique. Not only for its rotary engine, but also because of its attractively styles package."
- Page 36
the RX-8 is basically trying to be everything all at once, and reaching that happy medium would be impossible without compromises...the RX-8 falls short in almost every category; as a sports car, it can't beat a 350Z or an STi...in terms of luxury, it can't beat a BMW 3-series...BUT it never falls short by much...to be able to seat 4 people comfortably AND get 0-60 times in under 6 seconds all the while pricing it well under $30,000 is an engineering masterpiece, not to mention being the only mass produced car on the market with the brand new Renesis rotary engine...
yes, this car is trying to appeal to the sports car driver, the family man, the daily driver, the luxury car owner, the riceboy, the gadget freak, and the next door neighbor car junky...if you belong to two or more of these categories, then you're good to go...if you belong to only one of these camps, you may want to look elsewhere
- Page 36
the RX-8 is basically trying to be everything all at once, and reaching that happy medium would be impossible without compromises...the RX-8 falls short in almost every category; as a sports car, it can't beat a 350Z or an STi...in terms of luxury, it can't beat a BMW 3-series...BUT it never falls short by much...to be able to seat 4 people comfortably AND get 0-60 times in under 6 seconds all the while pricing it well under $30,000 is an engineering masterpiece, not to mention being the only mass produced car on the market with the brand new Renesis rotary engine...
yes, this car is trying to appeal to the sports car driver, the family man, the daily driver, the luxury car owner, the riceboy, the gadget freak, and the next door neighbor car junky...if you belong to two or more of these categories, then you're good to go...if you belong to only one of these camps, you may want to look elsewhere
05-30-2003, 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by LesPaul
I think another factor is the absence of choices in this car category (however that is defined....). At one time we had the Supra, 3000GT, Stealth, nice fat, powerful sports cars. For the last few years it seems the sports segment is mainly of the toy variety (Boxster, Miata, 911, MR2, S2000, etc.). Like many on this forum, I researched for over a year and found nothing in the market I liked (350Z is sweet, but too tiny).
My fear is that once we start driving ours around, the 8 will become another Durango or Eclipse in that they are everywhere. Just like mass appeal killed disco (ugh), it takes the fun out of it for me if too many people get 8s.
I think another factor is the absence of choices in this car category (however that is defined....). At one time we had the Supra, 3000GT, Stealth, nice fat, powerful sports cars. For the last few years it seems the sports segment is mainly of the toy variety (Boxster, Miata, 911, MR2, S2000, etc.). Like many on this forum, I researched for over a year and found nothing in the market I liked (350Z is sweet, but too tiny).
My fear is that once we start driving ours around, the 8 will become another Durango or Eclipse in that they are everywhere. Just like mass appeal killed disco (ugh), it takes the fun out of it for me if too many people get 8s.
I love the move to smaller, lighter, more nimble "toy" cars. The Elise is my dream car, and a Miata is as close as I could get. The 3000GT, Supra, etc. are completely uninteresting to me. Weight is the #1 performance stat I'm interested in.
Yet we both are here on this board. Interesting.
05-30-2003, 11:15 AM
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Paraphrasing your quote one could say ' Either do sports car or do not do sports car. Never halfway.'
To me halfway means a 2+2 sports coupe (e.g. Mustang, G35C etc). The back seats are almost unusable except to carry groceries, so why bother to go the the expense and weight to add them at all. Definitely a half-hearted halfway.
OTOH the RX-8 is a real 4 seater with 4 doors and yet much less weight, better weight distribution and handling. Does that make it better or worse than the halfway vehicles mentioned above. It definitely makes the RX-8 a far better sedan replacement for sure, but does that automatically disqualify it from having any sports car abilities and passion. I think not. Comparing the RX-8 to real sports sedans like BMW 330i, Lexus IS300 etc shows a HUGE difference in design intent and hopefully passion/feel - if the RX-8 is not vastly more fun to drive than my IS300 I will not buy it.
The RX-8 is a new type of animal in the automotive world (much like the first SUV), and I think it's design and intent will be copied and even improved by many others. Some people say it makes too many compromises - I disagree vehemently: it makes just enough compromises to be realistic for me and hundreds of thousands of other car enthusiasts who cannot compromise their people carrying needs and who will seriously consider it once they become aware of it...
To me halfway means a 2+2 sports coupe (e.g. Mustang, G35C etc). The back seats are almost unusable except to carry groceries, so why bother to go the the expense and weight to add them at all. Definitely a half-hearted halfway.
OTOH the RX-8 is a real 4 seater with 4 doors and yet much less weight, better weight distribution and handling. Does that make it better or worse than the halfway vehicles mentioned above. It definitely makes the RX-8 a far better sedan replacement for sure, but does that automatically disqualify it from having any sports car abilities and passion. I think not. Comparing the RX-8 to real sports sedans like BMW 330i, Lexus IS300 etc shows a HUGE difference in design intent and hopefully passion/feel - if the RX-8 is not vastly more fun to drive than my IS300 I will not buy it.
The RX-8 is a new type of animal in the automotive world (much like the first SUV), and I think it's design and intent will be copied and even improved by many others. Some people say it makes too many compromises - I disagree vehemently: it makes just enough compromises to be realistic for me and hundreds of thousands of other car enthusiasts who cannot compromise their people carrying needs and who will seriously consider it once they become aware of it...
05-30-2003, 11:38 AM
#20
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it makes just enough compromises to be realistic for me and hundreds of thousands of other car enthusiasts who cannot compromise their people carrying needs and who will seriously consider it once they become aware of it...
Don -- There is still time to get back on the bandwagon, although I suspect that will take place for you once the general public gets wind of this new breed of sports car. I still say trade your G35.
Hang tight all, as we are in for one wild ride!
05-30-2003, 11:46 AM
#21
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Re: Squish Like Bug
Originally posted by DonG35Miata
I am starting to think that Mazda should have forgotten the four door sports car but and just made a closed sports car like the
RX-7. If the car was smaller and a 2-door, it could be only 2,700 lbs and with the Renesis, there would be no straight-line performance complaints. Handling would be best in its class, and without the extra doors and the back seat, safety features for extra two passengers, etc this RX-7 could sell for under $27,000 nicely equipped. It would be a true spiritual successor to the first gen RX-7, and in my opinion, a runaway sales success, too.
I am starting to think that Mazda should have forgotten the four door sports car but and just made a closed sports car like the
RX-7. If the car was smaller and a 2-door, it could be only 2,700 lbs and with the Renesis, there would be no straight-line performance complaints. Handling would be best in its class, and without the extra doors and the back seat, safety features for extra two passengers, etc this RX-7 could sell for under $27,000 nicely equipped. It would be a true spiritual successor to the first gen RX-7, and in my opinion, a runaway sales success, too.
Why do people keep making the mistake of referring to the '8 as the successor to the RX-7???
This is a completely different car, built from the ground up. It's not a new RX-7, that will come later (albeit dependant on the sales of the RX-8 - as rumour will have it).
There's no point moaning that they should have made it a 2-seater, lighter etc so as to carry on the RX-7 name, because this isn't what it's trying to do!
-andy-
05-30-2003, 11:46 AM
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Good point RICH. I am not being critical of the "toy" cars. They certainly have their place and they can be fun. I just like to have a little more muscle around me. Yes that means more weight, but it also means stability and, perhaps, safety. Cram the thing with tons of horsepower and I'm happy. I'm trading a 1991 Stealth twin turbo, and I'll miss it. If they made a 2004 Stealth/3000GT I'd probably buy it. The RX8 seems the next best thing in my price range right now.
05-30-2003, 11:53 AM
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I totally agree with Pelucidor, the RX-8 was meant to be a well rounded car. The moment I saw the RX-8 I was in love. When I saw the HP and torque numbers I was impressed. I say it has plenty of torque, and as for HP it has plenty. I myself drive a manual civic. And I always take it to its limits. The biggest complaints of my car is 1. its cheap - falling apart 2. too little power. 3. its only two doors and there isn't much room in the back for the extra passengers.
Now with the RX-8 the three complaints I just stated surely would be non-existant. And since hondas are made to be high revving I sure won't have any problems driving the RX-8. And compared to the civic, the RX-8 has about 2.5 more HP and 60% more torque and with its superior handling.
I know the RX-8 and the civic is two totally different cars. But both cars are high revving and low on torque, but compare the weight of both cars and their respective power it generates the RX-8 is amazing. of course the civic has better mileage. But thats because it has a cheap little four banger that barely drinks gas. Now the RX-8 gives a lot of power and the mileage isn't all that bad. Now if the economy wasn't all s**tty I wouldn't have lost most of my money and I would have the money to preorder...*sniff*
anyways I guess I'll just have to wait until the RX-7 comes out.:D
Now with the RX-8 the three complaints I just stated surely would be non-existant. And since hondas are made to be high revving I sure won't have any problems driving the RX-8. And compared to the civic, the RX-8 has about 2.5 more HP and 60% more torque and with its superior handling.
I know the RX-8 and the civic is two totally different cars. But both cars are high revving and low on torque, but compare the weight of both cars and their respective power it generates the RX-8 is amazing. of course the civic has better mileage. But thats because it has a cheap little four banger that barely drinks gas. Now the RX-8 gives a lot of power and the mileage isn't all that bad. Now if the economy wasn't all s**tty I wouldn't have lost most of my money and I would have the money to preorder...*sniff*
anyways I guess I'll just have to wait until the RX-7 comes out.:D
Last edited by Y&Y; 05-30-2003 at 11:56 AM.
05-30-2003, 12:22 PM
#24
Re: Squish Like Bug
Originally posted by DonG35Miata
Miyagi says "Either do Karate, or do not do Karate. Never halfway, or squish like bug". I then drew a reference to the RX-8, in that attempting to split the difference between a sports car and a sedan with the four-door sports car concept it would end up doing neither function exceptionally well.
Miyagi says "Either do Karate, or do not do Karate. Never halfway, or squish like bug". I then drew a reference to the RX-8, in that attempting to split the difference between a sports car and a sedan with the four-door sports car concept it would end up doing neither function exceptionally well.
In the case of the RX-8 I firmly believe that Mazda, whether you prefer Mr. Miyagi or Master Yoda, is DOING it perfectly!!!! Just the way they want it and I want it.
05-30-2003, 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by Rich
Nope, I don't agree. Is the G35 coupe a failure? Certainly not! Yet it has far worse compromises IMHO. Have you sat in the back seat of one of those cars? I'm 5'10, and I can't come close to sitting up straight without hitting my head on the glass. .....
I drove a friend's G35 coupe and wasn't impressed. It's very quick, but it feels incredibly heavy (coming from a Miata...).
I think the best test is to compare it to the G35 coupe, which is an undeniable success. The G35c has some advantages - namely torque -
One question - Is it true that the manual transmission on the G35c is only offered starting at $35k?
Nope, I don't agree. Is the G35 coupe a failure? Certainly not! Yet it has far worse compromises IMHO. Have you sat in the back seat of one of those cars? I'm 5'10, and I can't come close to sitting up straight without hitting my head on the glass. .....
I drove a friend's G35 coupe and wasn't impressed. It's very quick, but it feels incredibly heavy (coming from a Miata...).
I think the best test is to compare it to the G35 coupe, which is an undeniable success. The G35c has some advantages - namely torque -
One question - Is it true that the manual transmission on the G35c is only offered starting at $35k?
Cough cough, I feel a certain need to bud in here. First of all, let's address the backseat issue. The headroom in the G35C rearseats are small, only passengers shorter than 5'8 would be able to sit back there in a comfortably reclined position. However, if your friends are mostly 5'8 or under, the G35C rear seats offer more usable legroom, arm and hip room than a RX8. (Don't believe me? park them side by side and sit in the back, as I have done) So if you are consistently carrying 3 other passengers taller than 5'8, then get a sedan, because the RX8 legroom won't help you with tall passengers. If you only have 1 tall passenger, then the G35C rear seats are some of the most comfortable seats on the market, just like the front seats.
2) Pricing: a base 6MT G35C used to cost $32050, now it's $32200 after center console revision. Included in this base model is full leather interior, Brembo brakes, 18' rims, LSD, EBD, DSC, Cruise, Xenon, 6 Disc CD Changer, heater seats, power seats, fold down rear seats, and heated mirrors. As a matter of fact, I recommend a base 6MT over the premium version, the Bose is overrated and sunroof and Homelink + Dim mirrors only costs $1300 to install. This would bring the price of a nicely equipped G35C to $33350. A similarly equipped RX8 (Leather, CD, spare)would cost you $32000. To make matters even more interesting, a 6MT G35 sedan would run you only $32850. (Starts under $30k) Now ask yourself the question, is a 6MT G35 sedan Premium pkg (0-60 on par with the coupe) worth $850 more than a RX8? Let's not forget a fully loaded G35C can sprint to 60 in 5.5 sec, a 6MT G35 sedan can keep pace closely with 4 real doors, a big trunk and 5 seats. I am sorry, but that kind of price difference won't cut it for Mazda. The G35 siblings are still the best performance/value/luxury deal around town.
3) Driving dynamic: I have driven the G35C on a track before. You are right, it doesn't feel fast, but when you cross the finish line and look at the time..... you'll know you were going pretty damn fast. The VQ35DE engine is very smooth, and the chasis is stable. Some cars feels faster than their actual speed (RX8) and some cars are the exact opposite.
Anyhow, I am not trying to rag on the RX8, just offering my view point from the Infiniti G35C perspective. There is an old saying, there is no replacement for displacement. With the type of performance (acceleration in particular) price, and gas milage, the RX8 does not look as good as it once did 2 month ago.