beachdog

The spark plug in most piston engines is located within the combustion chamber. (some Honda engines I believe locate the plug in a pre-combustion chamber) The spark plug gets to initiate a flame front that immediately radiates out from it. The plugs in the rotary are recessed out from the combustion chamber further complicating the propogation of the flame front.

beachdog

Yes, there is a visible rotary model. No renesis yet that I am aware of. You can find them on the larger toy and hobby websites.

kmg1186

wow. never thought id be wishing i lived in wyoming. but new jersey roads just cant compare to those winding canyon/mountain roads in wyoming!

BOOSTD 7

When you figure that only the 6th largest Japanese car manufacturer has been working on the rotary, and then only with a small (5% - 10%) portion of it's engineering budget ... and only for the last 4 decades, THEN you begin to realize more about what the rotary is capable of, and why continuing to produce them is important.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

this is your question:

you answered your question on the 2 paragraphs down:

because of the size of the rotary engine, it is placed further back from the front wheels and lower to the ground than any piston engine is capable of. By packing all th major high-mass items close toward the middle of the car and low to the ground, simple, fundamental physics dictates excellent handling even with an arguably 'soft' suspension compared to other sports-oriented cars.

it's not about how Mazda tried to stuff a rotary engine into this car, it's about how Mazda built a car AROUND this engine, maximizing its physical (as well as intangibles like sound and feel of the engine) benefits to create the RX-8 that we drive today...

kreuznach

I don't question the abilities of a rotary. 240hp out of a naturally aspirated 1.3L engine is an accomplishment. And efficient from an engineering stand-point. However, is it practical? And there is where I probably chose my words wrong. I probably should have said "practical" versus "efficient".

Whether using a qt of oil every 1000k or so miles and low MPG is practical is a case-by-case thing. Something each buyer/owner needs to decide for themselves. And that's something I'm still deciding for myself.

Efficient or not, practical or not, this car is definetly growing on me. I look forward to the drive too work as much as do driving it on an empty county road .... well maybe not that much.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

the RX-8 is practical! it's got 4 doors! it's got 2 rear seats! and a trunk! :o

zevans

I don't believe it does use a quart every 1000 miles. I've used just over 3 in 11,000 miles, including regular jams and a track day. I was surprised how little it used on the track - it's queueing in congestion that's the killer. I drove the whole way around Benelux and France - 2500 miles - and I used less than half a quart. That includes sustained 120mph+ cruising through Germany, and Alpine roads in France, which means hairpins driven properly AND at altitude. That's a killer for any car, but still there was no issue with oil consumption.

In fact when you look at what I've done in this car so far, you have to conclude the damn thing's indestructible. :D

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the brakes - they are another thing to amaze and astound in the twisties.

Low MPG, well, I can live with that in a sports car, driven like a sports car. I would have kept the VWAG diesel if I wanted good consumption.

And why rotary, for me? It's a great engine at 3000 revs, it's a great engine at 6000 revs, it's a great engine at 9000 revs, and it is SO easy to balance throttle in this car because torque is so linear.

As other people have said, a big advantage of the rotary is it's easy to build an front-mid chassis around it. Sure, there are plenty of other coupes around with FM layouts now, but not at RX8 prices. Perhaps some of the extra cost of the 350 is because it was hard to squeeze the VQ into a front-mid layout.

1.3L versus 3.5L hides the real benefit - the EXTERNAL size of the engine is more like 4:1 or 5:1. This also makes it easier to cool your engine bay, or perhaps fit your FI gear in it...

Anyway, when you take it into the mountains, you will no longer care about mpg - I guarantee it. :D

(BTW if you're driving sweepers at a steady 120mph - why not use 6th? In most cars it would be hard to balance it during turns if you did - but you can do it in the 8.)

By the way, the mid-range response got much better in mine after 1000 miles or so.

kreuznach

Finally got to spend some REAL quality time with my new car on Monday. Had the day off and thought I'd head for the hills or canyons in this case. [For the Rocky Mtn locals reading this: I hit Poudre Canyon, Fox Canyon and took a nice piece of road off of Fox. Then up to the reservior and back down into Ft Collins.] I was amazed at how effortlessly the '8 carved up these roads. Apply throttle at apex or just before and it digs in nicely. Seemless power keeping the front in line and right through the turn. Up both canyon roads the turns run left, right, left and right again. Miles and miles of it. The '8 transitioned very well. Never becoming unsettled. I don't pay much attention to the speedometer when I'm out for a drive like this. I go as fast as I feel I can safely go. Along these roads there's not much room for error. In many spots one side of the road is a wall of rock and the other is a straight drop to the Poudre river below. And no guard rails! One of the things I've always liked about my Miata was that it's low capabilities made average drivers like myself feel like great ones. The RX-8, with its higher limits, never felt out of control. I never felt like I had to hold back on the tight curves. The RX-8 always had my back.

The '8 is a very much a Japanese sports/sporty car. In the same way the Prelude and RSX were/are. Seating postition is typical Japanese. No compromises. No Italian style knees in the chest and arms extended straight out. No wheel or pedals slightly off center or to opposite sides like some American cars. Seating position is perfect. Relationship between driver, wheel and pedals are exact. The stick falls right to hand. Just how it should be.

I haven't experienced driving the RX-8 much in the snow. After 20+ inches in 10 days at the end of November, I finally got my Blizzak LM-22s and we've only had a few dustings since. If just because of the tires alone, I'm sure it will do fine. I used the LM-22s the last 2 winters on my Miata and had zero problems.

This car really does get some attention. The Miata could fly under the radar ... and most 4x4s Not the '8. I stopped at Toys R Us this day to buy Little Kreuznach an R/C RX-8 for Christmas and the coolest thing happened while I was talking to the sales clerk.

Toys R Us Guy (think Jeff Spicoli): "Dude. Have you ever driven one of these?"
Me: "You mean the R/C?"
Toys R Us Guy: "No. The real thing. They are sweet."
Me: "Um, yea. I own one."
Toys R Us Guy: "You're so lucky. I got to sit in one once. My girlfriend's Dad ... well she's not really my girlfriend. You see, she calls me, but ......."

That was the coolest feeling. My car is ... cool. I own a cool car. As if my chest wasn't sticking out enough, as I'm loading the loot into the trunk a hot girl in the car next to me leans past her boyfriend and yells to me what a nice car I have. Her boyfriend did not seem amused.

I'm definitely warming up to the RX-8. It impresses me more and more. However, the big test still lies ahead this summer. As I drive up those same canyon roads am I going to be able to live with life under a fixed top? I'm going to miss seeing the whole view. Seeing what everyone else is missing from the seats of their RVs and SUVs. Seeing the tops of the canyon walls. The blue Wyoming and Colorado skies above. Time will tell. If the whole famn damily comes with me on these mountain drives, which was the intent for buying this practical 4 seat sports car, then it will be worth it ... well if they come some of the time :P

Aratinga

I think you're just obsessed with round rear ends. That chick in your avatar looks like she has a second *** on her chest.

And as for the 8 being as fun as a Miata.... I don't think so. Nothing beats a nimble convertible on a gorgeous day on a winding mountain road. But I love the 8 for lots of the other features you mention (endless revs, usable back seat, elegant interior, etc.) The perfect solution is to have one (or more) of each.

RX-GR8

LOL

dmp

kreuznach has the best avatar on this board, fwiw.

Nubo

And, to answer the "utility" issue, the same goes for being able to seat 4 comfortably in a permance platform the size of a Porsche 911 -- possible because of the size and placement of the engine.

The oil consumption is a vanishingly small issue. Even with a quart per 1000 miles, it is an almost insignificant incremental cost in time and money.

MPG sucks, no doubt about it. But we know that going in. The unfortunate aspect is that during development this engine was expected to yield mileage in the 30's. I'd love to know the story of how it dropped so far. EPA requirements? Maybe, but having mileage cut in half is an unusually large penalty.

Anyway, I digress. Many of the things you like about the car can be directly or indirectly attributable to choice of the rotary engine. The similarities to the Miata are apt. Consider this a 4-seater Miata. You must couldn't achieve that result with a piston engine without the car being larger and less agile.

Paul_in_DC

Back in the early 70's when Mazda was just getting to be well-known in the States, they were putting the rotary into everything that moved. (Chevy even tested a Corvette with one.) Gas was dirt cheap at the time, and a small powerful engine was quite a draw. Since fuel economy became more important, Mazda put pistons into everything else, but kept them in the RX's to get a nice sports car that had a lot of "oomf" for its weight.

IMHO, it's a great engine for a sports car, but probably not much else.

Paul_in_DC

The only other car I owned with 50/50 distribution was a Triumph Spitfire that weighed in at 1,900 lbs dripping wet. The engine was a tiny 1.6L, and the body was extremely light. It handled magnificently, but it did 0-60 in about a week! :D

Benedick

I had a 1980 Spitfire, the last year they made them. Mine had a 1500cc engine. Didn't know they ever made a 1600. Anyway, the actual 0-60 time for my '80 was 14.3 seconds, according to period R&T road tests.

That, by the way, is what kills me about people complaining about the RX-8's performance. Looking at small sports cars in an historical context, the 8 is blindingly fast. 0-60 in under six seconds? That's freaking amazing. I had a 1980 Nissan 300ZX. Loved that car. Thought it was faster than I really would ever need. 0 - 60 time? 9.2 seconds.

Is the RX-8 faster than (insert car here)? Who cares? It's more than fast enough to keep me entertained and that's all that matters.

kreuznach

You're right.

Right again!! :D


Ain't she hot?!?!?

kreuznach

IMHO, the RX-8 after 6000 miles ... I'm really beginning to like this car for what it is and still dislike for what it is not.

I miss my Miata. And am certain that will only worsen as the temps get warmer and the sun shines brighter. Oh yea, and the threat of flooding pisses me off. In fairness, I must say I've yet to be a victim of this. [knocking on wood] With the dislikes out of the way ....

Man this car is easy to drive fast. Too easy. The streets of Cheyenne have become my personal road course. I had the chance to discuss that very fact with one of Cheyenne PD's finest just yesterday. He charged me $100 for the use of public roads as my own. What a bargin!

I'm still learning the RX-8's abilities and limits. With all the gravel on the road right now, this really isn't the time of year to explore a car's limits. The yardstick I use to measure all cars is a little stretch of road in Poudre Canyon. It's the kind of road where big horse power and top speed are not players. A well handling car, like a Lotus Elise, will excel here. As you come into and exit the canyon speed matters, but that's about the only time. In the heat of it there's just one left turn, right turn combo after another. When I first drove the '8 up this road I thought, "Well that was nice, but she's no Miata." I've had the chance to drive the canyon a few more times since and the last two times I've really become comfortable with the car. Really impressed with how well it handles and transitions from corner to corner. Infact, though not verified by anything other than the seat of pants and heartrate, I can now run this stretch considerably faster than in the Miata.

I'm having trouble placing the inside front tire right where I want it everytime. Something I could always do in the Miata. I don't want to blame the steering, because, though light, is pretty spot-on. I'll assume I need more seat time and need too adjust to driving a car larger than a go-kart. Besides, could more seat time ever be bad?

As for mechanical problems, those are well documented in other posts. And frankly [knocking on wood] I really haven't been a victim to many of them. I had the thermostat replaced a few weeks ago. The engine was running cold in extreme temps. Like -15 F. No problems since, but no extreme temps either. Gas milage seems to have improved. I don't know if that is due to good break-in or the many flashes that are the norm with owning an '8. Strangely, the gas mileage seems to be consistant no matter how hard I drive the car. This last tank it seemed I just couldn't get enough of listening to the "beep" at 9000 prm. Yet the mileage was only a few ticks off from the tank before.

You may gather from my comments that I at least like this car. But yet I don't. Or perhaps I'm just not overwhelmed with it. I have to love my cars or they will find themselves parked in someone else's garage. I don't love my '8. I can't put my finger on it. Is it too Japanese? It does everything so well. With out fuss. It's perfect ... a perfect utensil. It lacks compromise and character like many Japanese cars do. A 1970 240Z or a Miata--those cars have the best of both worlds. All the things, like dependability, that make Jap cars great, but they also had character.

I guess I'll have to keep driving that canyon road, till I figure it out. :D

BasenjiGuy

I think if you spend some time with the car in tight second and third gear turns, keeping the revs above 6k, you will find that the RX-8 is one of the most entertaining cars you'll ever drive. I love the Miata too, but you just can't get any where near the compelling exit acceleration out of a corner, nor can you get crazy but sustainable amounts of yaw with power oversteer in the corners like you can with an RX-8.

You will also find that the rotary allows Mazda to place a densely packaged engine well back towards the A-pillar, and, regardless of the engine's weight, with that mass centralized between the front and rear axles, the RX-8 can change directions very quickly. And in an entertaining matter.

Additionally, what you might not appreciate about the rotary is that it's substantially smoother than a four cylinder engine, even one with a counterbalancer set up. An S2000 is deafening inside and Honda's VTEC motors sound like they're on the verge of grenading once VTEC kicks in. This is coming from a person who used to own, and loved, his VTEC-equipped Integra GS-R. I'm at an age where I want more than power, I want the engine to be smooth. I'd love to have more low end torque, but, since coming out of an inline six car, I'm accustomed to low NVH and I won't put up with a noisy car. Spend some time in an S2000 or a 350Z. I have, and my ears are killing me after 10 minutes in one of those things. Not acceptable. Inline fours and V-6's are fundamentally unbalanced engines. Not very elegant. Not very smooth.

A rotary and an inline six have perfect fundamental balance. It's all about balance.

stanfordcole

Basenji, that was spoken like a true poet. Not sure if it was your words or the fact i feel the same about the car but couldn't have sai it any better. Good post my friend.

plugot

Good post VikingDJ. Fact is there are so many really superb cars on the market today that a brilliant car of only 5 or 6 years ago is merely average now. I wish I could have about a dozen different cars for different moods and driving wants. I have the desire, just not the bucks -- well actually I do, but then I wouldn't have a place to live or a wife to live in with it me So we make compromises -- budget, needs, interests. If I were an avid camper I probably would want an SUV; if I had a bunch of kids, I might need a wagon or minivan. But I don't, so I can drive pretty much anything as long as it's street legal and insurable. And of course, affordable. That's what make the RX-8 such an intriguing option. Let's see, one can actually seat 4 full sized homosapiens, is very smooooothhh, handles brillantly, revs like a bunny in heat, and holy rotaries, can be had very well equipped for around $30K. That's a pretty unique package.
But you really gotta love it to drive it.

I had a 2001 BMW 330CI - 6 speed, sport package, luxury package, etc... You get the picture. It was a superb car. It did everything very, very well. The car mags always salivated over it -- and for good reason.
Problem was, I never loved it. I respected it. I took very good care of it. I admired its overall excellence. I never loved it. I sold it for a 2004 Mini Cooper S. That car I LOVE!! Fantastic, fun, affordable. Can even haul stuff in it. Fantastic. Made by the same company that made my Bimmer. How come I loved one, and the not the other? Beats the hell outta me.

Same thing for the RX-8 and the Miata. My wife had two Miatas. Really terrific sports cars. Great handling, reliable, cheap to run. I'd rather have an RX-8. Dunno why, just would. So, it all comes down to something nearly unknowable.
Considering how much a car costs, you really gotta love it to make those payments month after month after month. If you don't, it's probably better to sell it, take the financial lumps and find something you don't mind making payments on when you write out that last check.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

when your interest in owning other cars suddenly drops, it's a sign that you are quite satisfied with your current car. I am noticing this sympton with my 8, all other cars are just like 'meh' to me now, no real desire to get another car, almost like i'm *at peace* with the car world or something lol :p

VikingDJ

That is where I envy you. There are several cars suited for me, because I just love cars period. I bought RX8, choosing it over the STi, Golf R32 and 350z. I got over the 350z, because it was more comparable to the rx8, but couldn't get over the STI, because it was totally different, yet what I also wanted out of a car. So I went crazy and got an STI. My car payments are so worth it. However, I have yet to get over the R32. Now of course I cannot buy this car now without parting one of them. The rx8 is not an option. The STI isn't either because I'm not gonna feel any better by swapping. Then I see cars like the S2000, the z4, miata, ect, and think, CONVERTIBLE over RX8. This is where I stop myself and say WAKE UP, you have to compromise. When a car takes a microscopic second place over another, it leaves one hanging, but only when I sit here and think about it. Second place is still second place. Once I hop in my RX8 and drive, I think NAH, I'm happy with this car. Then I drive STI and say I'm also happy with this car. The R32 is still hanging over my head because it's refined unlike the STI. But then I think POWER, and I erase the R32. Moral of story is, in the end I needed both RX8 and STI, because each lacked what the other had. I was fortunate enough to not have to compromise, but in the end you always have to compromise. The other cars take second place, but for those brief moments of unclear la la land, I still dream of them. As for other cars I can't see myself in, I can imagine someone with that personality feeling the same way I do.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

of course my complacency may be shattered once I see an Evo walk my 8 on the front straight at the track :D

ignorance is bliss, for now at least :D

V_for_velocity

This 50-50 weight distribution thing has been mentioned a million times. But specs from Mazda's own brochure say it's 52-48. So why do people keep saying otherwise?