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I said it before...I have owned an Evo and currently own an 8! While they are different animals in a lot of ways they are both great driving experiences! The Evo is a beast of a car when it comes to performance! The RX-8 cannot outdo the Evo in any area of performance that I can think of! The RX-8 is a more comfortable ride and very smooth about it's business in every way...still great! There is a lot of false info passed in threads like this and while some get all pissy at Ike for saying what he does...he is absolutely right in a lot of these debates!
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to each his own.
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Originally Posted by bruce_van
I'm actually think there are too many cars to choose from when deciding on a new car. That's a wonderful thing.
Wow...that sounded really cheesy. |
i'm getting an evo in 3 weeks, i'm getting rigoff the rx-8, i'm bore of it. evo is more fun.... trust me.
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Originally Posted by 9291150
You're mostly alone in that "scary" evaluation of the 8's handling. I only read one review out of dozens that said anything close to that. The 8 IS too soft for a trackday only car, but so are most stock cars, your 350 included.
Hornet- how do you rate the brakes on the EVO compared to the 8? |
Originally Posted by Ike
That one in particular is the top of the line UK model but it's not as different as you'd think from a standard MR Evo. All the suspension is the same they just boosted power levels to 400hp, which is about the same as a standard Evo with some boltons. They did it a little differently though, maybe for emissions, maybe to justify the extra cost. The main difference is a little bit larger turbo and a Motec.
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Originally Posted by dbb
.... and the turbo lag which made the car undriveable on roads, which they showed on the same top gear episode.
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Originally Posted by dynamho
Certainly the MP3 Protege was a fun-to-drive car. I think it's one of the smartest moves Mazda made to test the waters. However, I don't recall that it was designed from a clean sheet of paper like the RX-8. Tell me if I'm wrong, but isn't the MP3 a Protege (great little car BTW) with suspension mods and a trivial power tweak, whose success led to the underrated but fantastic MS Protege?
I don't follow why the MP3 example illustrates the validity of the "sports car". If the criterion is just fun-to-drive, then I'm afraid say that the argument falls way short. Perhaps, you and I are not in sync.... |
Originally Posted by gh0st
this is just one of about 10 RETARTED comments ive read so far. this is reality, not gran turismo.
hahaha poor Ike...the ignorance and debating skills of some of these fanboys must drive you up the wall. this thread made my brain bleed a little. http://www.ffcobra.com/FAQ/handling102_part2.html Basically, 4WD does not introduce power oversteer. However, most people still prefer it simply because it provides superior cornering grip thus improve cornering speed. As I have promised earlier in the Cornering Grip section, here I'll explain how 4WD improve cornering grip : Consider a driving wheel running in a corner. Due to the frictional force applied from the road surface, the tread in the contact patch distorts and creates slip angle. The faster the car corner, the more centrifugal force generates thus the larger the slip angle becomes. You can interpret this as the elastic distortion of the tire generates a counter force to keep the car fighting with the centrifugal force. When the car is accelerated fast to the extent that the elasticity of the tire reaches its limit, it could not distort anymore, thus more speed will lead to the tire slide, and the car lose grip. This point is what we call "Cornering Limit". A FWD or RWD car has already a lot of tire distortion (slip angle) in the driving wheel because the tractive force is shared by only two wheels. Therefore there is not too much space left before the tires running into their cornering limits. On the contrary, 4WD cars distribute tractive force to all wheels, thus each wheel shares considerably less tractive force thus create smaller slip angle in cornering. The car can corner at higher speed before the slip angle reach the cornering limit. I think we all agree so far ... an AWD has more grip and can carry higher corners speeds. No one is disputing that. However ... There is always argument that whether the neutral steer of 4WD is better than RWD's oversteer. Although neutral is more favorable in the entry phase and mid corner phase during cornering, it doesn't provide the "correctability" of power oversteer in the exit phase. Remember, no driver could avoid miscalculation, no matter Mrs. Robinson or Michael Schumacher. Normally we need to feel the car's attitude and the road condition every moment before deciding how to control the car in the next moment. In this sense, RWD's controllable power oversteer is what we want. Moreover, power oversteer of RWD ask the driver to intervene the throttle during cornering. This let him feel more involving and that he is mastering the car. In contrast, 4WD cars let the tremendous grip, the limited-slip differential and even the computer to rule the car's cornering. Therefore we always hear road testers said RWD is more fun to drive. |
Originally Posted by dbb
it's going to bleed some more now ...
http://www.ffcobra.com/FAQ/handling102_part2.html I think we all agree so far ... an AWD has more grip and can carry higher corners speeds. No one is disputing that. However ... "...Although neutral is more favorable in the entry phase and mid corner phase during cornering, it doesn't provide the "correctability" of power oversteer in the exit phase...." His point here is perhaps that the extra degree of control offered by RWD is most suitable for driving enthusiasts. Thanks for the link though. It has some great reading! |
Originally Posted by dynamho
Certainly the MP3 Protege was a fun-to-drive car. I think it's one of the smartest moves Mazda made to test the waters. However, I don't recall that it was designed from a clean sheet of paper like the RX-8. Tell me if I'm wrong, but isn't the MP3 a Protege (great little car BTW) with suspension mods and a trivial power tweak, whose success led to the underrated but fantastic MS Protege?
I don't follow why the MP3 example illustrates the validity of the "sports car". If the criterion is just fun-to-drive, then I'm afraid say that the argument falls way short. Perhaps, you and I are not in sync.... |
Originally Posted by 9291150
No, there is not that big a diff. in skidpads or transition/slalom times, which says much about the 8 considering its compliant ride.
http://www.caranddriver.com/longroad...x-8-page2.html id say .95 vs .88 is a pretty significant margin, but if you think otherwise that its not a big diff then thats fine too. ... and ive seen .98g for the EVO... http://www.exoticcarsite.com/pages/mitsubishi_evo8.htm , so id say .95g is a pretty conservative number for the evo. |
Originally Posted by playdoh43
well i thought you might be right because i wasnt sure what the rx8 got in skidpad, though i vividly remember it to be slightly less than .9g as ive mentioned in my previous post... so i took out my c&d about the EVO and it got a .95g stock, and just to make it fair i went to search for the skidpad number for rx8 at c&d, it was .88g
http://www.caranddriver.com/longroad...x-8-page2.html id say .95 vs .88 is a pretty significant margin, but if you think otherwise that its not a big diff then thats fine too. ... and ive seen .98g for the EVO... http://www.exoticcarsite.com/pages/mitsubishi_evo8.htm , so id say .95g is a pretty conservative number for the evo. No idea how that "exoticcarsite" sourced its data. |
Originally Posted by gh0st
on stock suspension, the 8 is twitchy at high speeds when approaching the limits.
Hornet- how do you rate the brakes on the EVO compared to the 8? |
Originally Posted by playdoh43
^^its been mentioned many times before on this board, theres a reason why RX8 is in B stock while EVOs and S2000 are in A stock in autoX. they are a class higher because they handle better in general. AutoX is all about handling while acceleration plays very little part in it. on the skid pad EVO pulls close to 1g while RX8 if i remember correctly is a tad below .9 ... but skidpad is more indicative of the grade of tire and EVO has superior Yoko Advans, not so much about handling. ---edit actually tires does directly affect handling, superior tire will add toward overall handling of a car
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Originally Posted by 9291150
You're picking the best of one and worst of another. Ok, let's stick with C&D, they also tested an 8 at .91 on Dunlops, and I saw two other tests of the Evo in C&D, one with .90 and another with .93 results. Hence my conclusion. I'm not even getting into transition/slalom times where the 8 also shows well.
No idea how that "exoticcarsite" sourced its data. I didnt pick the best of the evo number... or the worst number for rx8. i really dont want to continue aruging this because you are picking the best rx8 data vs low evo data on the other hand. in the end they are just numbers. so whatever, youre entittled to your belief. to me its more indicative of tires anyways. I know that the EVO is a much more capable car on any track, whether it be all turns or turns with straights, so thats enough evidence for me which one handles better. |
Originally Posted by 9291150
Evo's don't do as well in A stock.
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Originally Posted by Ike
That one in particular is the top of the line UK model but it's not as different as you'd think from a standard MR Evo. All the suspension is the same they just boosted power levels to 400hp, which is about the same as a standard Evo with some boltons. They did it a little differently though, maybe for emissions, maybe to justify the extra cost. The main difference is a little bit larger turbo and a Motec.
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Originally Posted by 9291150
You're mostly alone in that "scary" evaluation of the 8's handling. I only read one review out of dozens that said anything close to that. The 8 IS too soft for a trackday only car, but so are most stock cars, your 350 included.
I can leave the garage in the 8, come home after a 30 min drive. I can then get into the Z and drive the same stretch of road. I think that's as good of a comparison as I can think of. Being soft doesn't mean I am knocking the car, I am just stating what I feel. Why do people get so offended? Try a butt-floss, maybe that will clear it up. |
tmak26b is not alone, BMI have also made similar comments on multiple episodes. fanboys need not get bitter, no one said that rx8 is not a great handling car. in fact im pretty sure everyone here agrees that the RX8 is one of the best handling cars out there, Tmak26b included. Stop acting bitter everytime theres something negative is said. rx8 is not gods gift to men, nor is the evo or the 350Z, get over it.
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Originally Posted by tmak26b
Are you talking about the FK400 or something? That thing has a different suspension, the steering ratio is different too. The car is more hardcore than the ones you see here. It turns like a truck too.
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Originally Posted by MP3Guy
Ummm. That was the point I was trying to make. The MP3 Protege was a fun car, but it surely is no sports car.
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Originally Posted by dbb
it's going to bleed some more now ...
http://www.ffcobra.com/FAQ/handling102_part2.html I think we all agree so far ... an AWD has more grip and can carry higher corners speeds. No one is disputing that. However ... |
Originally Posted by Ike
Ok, go start your RX-8 from a dead stop in 6th gear and tell me how it accelerates. All they were showing is that the car needs to be in it's powerband to perform well, no different from your RX-8.
The RX-8's powerband is TOO broad for some people, and the engine is so elastic in it's response, it's one of the best reasons to own the car. And this again points to my "car by numbers" critique. You can generate a wonderful data panel on a road test with these overdone cars. That doesn't make them enjoyable to own and actually use. But bragging rights to a statistic is all some people need in a car. |
Originally Posted by Ike
And the MP3 sure as hell is no Evo, so what exactly is your point again?
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Originally Posted by 9291150
You're picking the best of one and worst of another. Ok, let's stick with C&D, they also tested an 8 at .91 on Dunlops, and I saw two other tests of the Evo in C&D, one with .90 and another with .93 results. Hence my conclusion. I'm not even getting into transition/slalom times where the 8 also shows well.
No idea how that "exoticcarsite" sourced its data. |
Originally Posted by MP3Guy
Oh, please, and you're calling everyone else "morons??"
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3 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by dbb
it's going to bleed some more now ...
http://www.ffcobra.com/FAQ/handling102_part2.html I think we all agree so far ... an AWD has more grip and can carry higher corners speeds. No one is disputing that. However ... i dont see how this article supports your statement. but thanks for the read though. think about it this way...you said something like "when the tires break loose". now theres understeer and oversteer for lack of traction. when oversteering, since the front tires are applying torque as well, AWD usually increases controllability. i dont think this is what you were talking about though. in the case of understeer which i suspect that is what you are referring to in your assumption, it is true that a RWD with enough torque and the right suspension settings, that a driver can correct with power oversteer. however, with enough torque and the right settings an AWD car can power oversteer as well. in December, i installed a version 8 STI with motor and drive terrain into an 2.5RS. believe me, with a 40/60 (i think) mechanical torque split that thing oversteers. bad... while it was a good read, there are points in that article that i dont necessarily agree with though. according to the article, AWD has more stability then RWD mid corner. from my experience RWD is more stable at high speeds mid corner. this article also speaks of AWD as if it never oversteers which just isnt true. sorry for the bad pic quality |
AH ghost that thing must be a total sleeper! nice pics
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Do other people besides myself find it as funny as I do that some guy is arguing about the feel of a car that he has never driven. It's like me writing a movie review without ever watching the movie.
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Originally Posted by playdoh43
tmak26b is not alone, BMI have also made similar comments on multiple episodes. fanboys need not get bitter, no one said that rx8 is not a great handling car. in fact im pretty sure everyone here agrees that the RX8 is one of the best handling cars out there, Tmak26b included. Stop acting bitter everytime theres something negative is said. rx8 is not gods gift to men, nor is the evo or the 350Z, get over it.
Btw, I think the highway feel has a lot to do with the power steering of the 8. The steering is way too light on it for higher speeds. |
Originally Posted by Ike
Do other people besides myself find it as funny as I do that some guy is arguing about the feel of a car that he has never driven. It's like me writing a movie review without ever watching the movie.
i find it simply hilarious |
Originally Posted by Ike
The FQ-400 and it does not have any different suspension or steering from a standard MR. Unless of course Mitsubishi is lying to us... One thing I did forget to mention is that it does have upgraded brakes with Ferodo pads. As for turning like a truck, I'm guessing you're speaking of the turning radius. All Evos are like that, it's one of the drawbacks of the super quick and responsive steering. It just takes a few days to get used to it, but the first time I went to pull a U turn I was a bit shocked...
The TopGear video mentioned something about the turning circle. I have driven EVOs in person, they don't turn anything like that. 38.7 ft turning circle is far cry from being bad. It looked really bad in that video. |
its something along the lines of the 500hp nismo GT-R z-tune. super limited production
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Originally Posted by playdoh43
its something along the lines of the 500hp nismo GT-R z-tune. super limited production
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I actually used to own an evo. i loved the car and it was an absolutely amazing drive. my only problem was the body lines and the engine...i know that sounds weird, but i'm just more of a sports car body line guy. also the engine. it was fine yes, BUT IT WASN'T A ROTARY!!!
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Originally Posted by tmak26b
You do know the FQ400 is not a true factory car right? They were imported into England as a regular car, they got the swap done through RalliArt UK. You don't find that car in Mitsubishi's website. Plus, isn't an EVO a grey market car in the UK anyway? (I could be wrong on that one)
The TopGear video mentioned something about the turning circle. I have driven EVOs in person, they don't turn anything like that. 38.7 ft turning circle is far cry from being bad. It looked really bad in that video. It's not gey market, they're sold through Mitsubishi dealers. But they are tweaked from the factory by a few places for Ralliart UK and were officially sold through Ralliart UK. It's confusing, I know. But it's not grey market and they are on Mitsubishi's site. http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/evolution/range.asp |
Originally Posted by Ike
The only time I've ever seen the Evo and RX-8 compared on the same day on the same track I think the peak Lateral G for the Evo was 1.10 and the RX-8 was .95. IIRC the peak corner speed for the Evo was 73 mph and for the RX-8 it was 64 mph. The test was done at Rockingham. Evaluating a car based on a dry skidpad has its flaws as does just about every car test known to man. How much better the Evo is than the RX-8 on a skidpad is going to depend greatly on the conditions.
I agree that the skidpad test isn't everything. That's why I liked the recent Car & Driver test - the "lightening lap" issue. Both the 8 and the Evo had identical average speeds through the handling sectors, and both had identical minimum speeds through the corners, beating far fancier hardware that they tested that day. |
Originally Posted by playdoh43
Stop acting bitter everytime theres something negative is said. rx8 is not gods gift to men, nor is the evo or the 350Z, get over it.
After your 1200 posts you'd think you'd be right more often. |
Originally Posted by 9291150
WTF? I'm acting bitter? Can you show me where? You’re the one calling me a fanboi because I disproved what you said with facts? Oh, more facts…Automobile tested the 8 at .94 and the Evo at .91. Road & Track tested both at .88…shall I go on. All I said ever said is that there isn't this huge divide as you suggested.
After your 1200 posts you'd think you'd be right more often. |
Originally Posted by 04RX8VR
I actually used to own an evo. i loved the car and it was an absolutely amazing drive. my only problem was the body lines and the engine...i know that sounds weird, but i'm just more of a sports car body line guy. also the engine. it was fine yes, BUT IT WASN'T A ROTARY!!!
Its funny though when I really compare the two....both the RX8 and the Evo both meet my needs from a handling standpoint. The EVO rings the bell on engine performance, and the RX8 has a more sporty personality and certainly looks a lot better and has a nicer interior in my opinion. At the end of the day they both excel at getting you from point A-Z on a twisty road faster than any other cars I have owned and I have owned a lot of performance cars. JR |
Originally Posted by 9291150
Not sure whta you're referring to here Ike.
I agree that the skidpad test isn't everything. That's why I liked the recent Car & Driver test - the "lightening lap" issue. Both the 8 and the Evo had identical average speeds through the handling sectors, and both had identical minimum speeds through the corners, beating far fancier hardware that they tested that day. |
Originally Posted by 9291150
After your 1200 posts you'd think you'd be right more often. |
Originally Posted by 9291150
WTF? I'm acting bitter? Can you show me where? You’re the one calling me a fanboi because I disproved what you said with facts? Oh, more facts…Automobile tested the 8 at .94 and the Evo at .91. Road & Track tested both at .88…shall I go on. All I said ever said is that there isn't this huge divide as you suggested.
After your 1200 posts you'd think you'd be right more often. |
Originally Posted by Jacques79
Who cares what other people think?
Thank God we don't all drive the same cars or else it would be a boooooooring world. Enjoy life, if you have more pleasure driving an EVO than an RX-8 get an EVO. Life is too short to stress about things like these. Cheers, -C |
I found one of my Wheels magazine (Australia's top selling car mag) , August 2004 edition.
It has a EVO VIII vs RX8 vs HSV Clubsport (think of a 4 door Pontiac GTO) comparison. It's a long article, so I'll try and be unbiased and put in the relevant quotes / points. In the real world environment, the Evo VIII is the scruffy headed, trouble making kid with attention deficit disorder. It lags a tad off the line with a tallish first gear - there's another bomb hole below the cruising fifth - but in four tightly bunched gears there's no disguising the fire hose surge and manic cog snatching urgency of this turbomotor's mid range. ... The Mazda's six slot box has the best shift action of this bunch, being lighter, shorter and quicker than the Mitsubishi's firm five speed ... On the road the Evo VIII has only two states of being : balls out, or unzipping in readiness. It's a shiv hidden in a running shoe. ... the steering has zero sneeze factor, and turn-in is outrageously immediate - helped, sometimes spookily, by a sensation of rear roll steer , largely the work of the active Yaw control rear differential. ... the Mazda RX8, the most low slung and lightweight of the three. It feels it, too, combining a broad and confident footprint with consistently weighted steering and great grip. The softish but stable chassis can be wheeled away late into corners and will simply scrub off speed in the turn in, then hold its line. It also boasts the best brake feel here, if not the outright stopping power to match the Mitsu ... |
Originally Posted by dbb
I found one of my Wheels magazine (Australia's top selling car mag) , August 2004 edition.
It has a EVO VIII vs RX8 vs HSV Clubsport (think of a 4 door Pontiac GTO) comparison. It's a long article, so I'll try and be unbiased and put in the relevant quotes / points. Why don't we take a look at their handling olympics article where both the RX-8 and Evo competed. Why don't I just post the article rather than taking "unbiased" relevant quotes. http://wheels.carpoint.ninemsn.com.a...Alias=wheelsau |
Amazing that a car that "isn't a drivers car" could do so well in such a test, huh dbb? Feel dumb yet?
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I've never said it wasn't quick. It is.
Look at the summary, they are comparing the EVO to the hallmark driver's car : the rx8. Pete McKay rates the Evo as the slightly better drive, with a fun factor equal to RX-8’s. Grabs you early and firmly. Not an abundance of power, but has a beautifully balanced chassis, devoid of any obvious vices. Quicker than it feels, which is a sign of competency. Great front end, with little understeer. Neutral through most of the cornering exercises, with no clear urge to snap into oversteer. The Bridgies seem nicely mated to mature dynamics. Brakes feel strong. Slalom confirms good balance while skid pan reveals nothing but excellence – flat, settled suspension and little requirement for throttle adjustment. Hip-hugging seats round out an impressive package. |
Originally Posted by dbb
I've never said it wasn't quick. It is.
Look at the summary, they are comparing the EVO to the hallmark driver's car : the rx8. From the same handling olympics article , the rx8 : And, btw, I don't feel dumb, but I do take satisfaction you have lowered yourself to petty name calling. I suppose your argument style goes well with your boy-racer tricked up lancer with the low rent interior. |
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