roland_beech

Call me a tree-hugger but after seeing the "Inconvenient Truth" movie I'm having a hard time coming to terms with the lousy mileage (and probably bad emissions since you burn oil in the engine) of the Rx-8

I know Mazda is working on a Hydrogen rotary car, but is there any reason why you couldn't do a hybrid 8?

Glyphon

price? weight? low market interest?

therm8

Emissions actually aren't that bad. It's LEV rated I believe. It's no Insight though. Hybridizing it would just give you an inefficient means of generating electricity (rotary engine). It's kind of like hybrid SUVs. If people cared that much about gasoline prices, peak oil, and emissions, they'd give up the stupid things. But buying a hybrid model allows people to massage their conscience without actually combatting any problems at all. Not to mention that the batteries are about as good for the environment as a leaking tanker truck full of greenhouse gasses. Me, I don't care. Offer me an equivalent, environmentally safe option at no extra cost, and I'll take a hard look at it. But until then, big oil gets my money.

Other than that the only issue is space. There's barely enough room for forced induction, much less a generator. Then you have to stuff batteries in there somewhere.

I believe Mazda has stated that a hybrid rotary powered car is not in their future.
But make a ethanol or hydrogen (or both) powered Renesis hybrid, and they'd be on to something.

Clavius

I think it would be more of a oxymoron than hybrid SUV. Though if they went Hydrogen that would be interesting especialy since around here there are no um hydrogen stations atleast not yet. Personaly I don't see most of this alt-fuel cars not picking up for another 10 years. Unless say McDonalds or Burger King decide to invest and put Bio-Desiel pumps on the sides of the stores haha. But sadly only some trucks and most German cars run on desiel so it wouldnt help american automakers much which would lobby against those two companies starting a BioDesiel station.

One other thing though to lazy to search at the moment but how horrible would Ethonal be for the Rotary? I sadly had to use a 10% Ethonal station and got the absolute wost milage EVER but 'eh then again I was going about avg 80mph but still lol less than 10mpg was frustrating, oh and I did have a/c on but again less than 10mpg lol.. end side rant/hijacking sawwy

beachdog

Didn't Honda recently announce that they are discontinuing the Accord Hybrid? Market didn't want a high performance hybrid. Now Lexus is using hybrid for "performance" gains. We will all wait and see. Mazda is selling few enough 8's as it is, how much risk do you think they are prepared for to try a performance hybrid.

As a side note, the only thing that hybridization could possibly help the 8 is with low end torque.

Now my personal rant: no one has ever given me a scientific explanation how a hybrid actually increases efficiency. You are using the gasoline in the engine, a process that is not totally efficient. Then you are using the generator to create electricity, another process that is not totally efficient. then you are charging batteries, another REALLY inefficient process. So when all is said and done, where is the efficiency (aka increased fuel mileage) coming from? I don't buy it and won't. Oh and I might as well add that cars are already complicated enough, I'm in no hurry to get a hybrid that's carrying around 2 propulsion systems that are joined together by a computer.

saturn

Hybrids have a high cost/pwnage ratio.

BlueSky

roland,

what sort of mileage are you getting and what model year is your 8?

I too thought of how genius it would be to make an RX8 hybrid.

First, the rotary engine is soo small that you could easily fit a hybrid system into the car. It might upset the balance of the car if not done right, though.

Second, make it it a performance hybrid, like the Lexus GS430h. The main focus of the hybrid drivetrain would be to boost performance firstly, and to improve gas mileage secondly.

Third, a hybrid system would greatly help with torque since electric motors effectively make their torque instantly.

Think about it, a RX8 hybrid with 300hp, and 260lb./ft of torque getting mileage easily in the low 20's. That would be heaven.

Clavius

Some Hybrids work differently but the way I atleast understand it is that under exceleration you use your normal gas motor. Then when your at a steady speed say on the highway coasting, the electric side kicks in and somehow someway lets your motor go down in revs and yet somehow keeps your car going at the same speed. I'm sure someone else could explain it better than me but again that is my small understanding of it.

The Accord Hybrid is failing because its priced a bit to high. To me a Hybrid should cost the same as the middle of the road model. I just wish the Toyota Prius(sp?) looked better instead of looking like something a 7 to 10 year old designed it for a matchbox car. I still love how Lexus has their "Performance Hybrid" watched a Speed Channel Test Drive show on it and man I can't believe they got increased hp with the hybrid. Just sucks they slapped it in a Lexus pretty much saying "If your rich you can save money on gas".

otherside

Call me what you will, but I hate hybrids! they are ugly, slow and driven mostly by pretentious celebrities pretending to care about mother earth. I have no regrets with my rx8. It burns oil, wastes gas, only seats two (really) and I love it!!!!

valpac

iTrader: (2)

I cant believe any current owners of an RX-8 would line up to buy a hybrid 8. I definitely wouldn't. They dont call them "alternative" fuels for nothing. Dont believe the hype.

daisuke

they just came out with the accord hybrid didn't they???

hybrids in my opinion are just a marketing gimmick the japanese are using to take advantage of the fact that diesel isn't in widespread use in the US.

Because diesel cars get better gas mileage than a gasoline one any day of the week, hybrids are the only real way to save on gasoline without going diesel. Add to that, that you can run diesels on biodiesel for like 30 bucks a month... who the hell wants a hybrid then???

Oh and the engine lasts longer and the current generation of diesels are faster accelerating than gasoline engines.

and I don't care how environmentally friendly a car is, if it doesn't thrill me or I don't like drvin it.. I'm not buying one. PERIOD

Raptor75

For a performance car you would address the issue a little different. The fly wheel would be replaced by the coil of the electric motor to save weight. The electric motor hosing is integrated into the end of the engine. This arrangement would also replace the starter motor because the electric motor would start the car. Regenerative breaking would charge the system and a small battery pack would be placed in the bottom of the trunk and supercapacitor would also be used for an acceleration boost. The main aim would be performance with mileage as a side benefit. This would be a small compact system but might require a move to 48 volt technology.

BlueSky

Guys not all hybrids are bad. Some are bad-***. Like the Lexus GS450h, not a sports car, but it hauls...er...***. The electric motor gives it alot of torque and extra horsepower. 0-60 in around 5.2 seconds! Plus, it gets the gas mileage of a V6.

It's rumored that Toyota's next Supra will have hybrid technology on board. You know, 7 years ago, when I was in junior high, a Toyota rep brought a Electric RAV-4 for a demonstration to my science class. Me, being the you car enthusiast that I was, asked "So when's Toyota gonna bring back the Supra." The guiy gave me a smile and said, "Not for another 5-6 years, and it'll have hybrid technology, meaning it will run on both gas and electricity." That might just be the scoop of a lifetime if they do intend to do just that. I shoulda sold me info to C&D the very next day.

Winfree

Your problem was you went to see a very well made propoganda film that mixes both truth and lies. First go to the Internet and look up any thing that combines the words ENRON, Clinton, and gobal warming. Then, after you figure out how the CO2 credit selling scam was supposed to work, and you find out that just one really productive volcano can release more CO2 than all the cars ever made, and that when Karaktoa went off we had global cooling ( Look up Mini iceage) and google "Global warming is causing global cooling" - then come back and ask about the Japanese modifications that can make your 8 run on hydrogen for a mere 40K! and I am really really serious about the Clinton, ENRON, global warming google you might throw in some pre Bush years as well.

BlueSky

From my research, I believe that Global Warming is real and its really happening fast. BUT, as to whether Humans are completely responsible....nope. From what I've read, I believe that Global Warming is simply part of a cycle the earth goes through every certain amount of years. I do believe, however, that human pollution has aided in speeding up the cycle. By how much? I'm not certain.

Winfree

Look, I could do the search for you guys and post it but I would get banned (again) for political thought - so it is really really worth while to go back to where the ideas of global warming originated, find out who were the parties involved, and who would make money - again, read both sides but google: Clinton, ENRON, global warming...

Yes we are seeing climatic changes. There is a 19 year cycle that repeats between hot and cold. We are entering a cooling phase but a least one weather model indicates that this will produce some 1930s like conditions: Texas, OK, Arizonia - droughts, dust storms, fires - not as bad as in the past becaused improved plowing, irrigation, and land management techniques. East Coast - warm currents, rain, floods, possible hurricanes. Gulf Coast and Islands - high hurricane activity for next 12 years. Calif. Hot summers, cold winters - Southern Utah - more water. Etc. Increases in ice bergs, initial decreases in sea ice followed in about 9-12 years concerns about ice lingering longer than normal - Don't know much about Europe, Asia, Africa, but probably 1930s like patterns - this is based on some very nice math by a couple of Nobel Prize laurettes back about 1978-1980s, before 'global warming was invented...

fenderlover

the smug would kill us all.....

shinka1313

The way the full hybrids (Ford & Toyota) work is as follows:
An electric motor is added to a gas engine that is optimized for maximum mileage. Below 25 MPH, the car can run on just the electric motor, the gas engine stays shutdown. Above 25 MPH, it uses just the gas engine. Both are used together whenever you push hard on the accelerator pedal. When the battery charge is low, the engine has to run the car as well as charge the batteries. When you press on the brake pedal, the electric motor changes to a generator to slow the car and give some free charge to the batteries. If you press hard on the brakes, the mechanical brakes are then used. The engine shuts off when stopped unless the batteries need charging.

The MPG benefit comes from the combination of the low power/high MPG gas engine and the stored power from braking applied to accelerating. I think the Hondas are similar except they cannot run only on electric. The battery pack on the Ford is 250 ni-cad D cells putting out over 300 volts!

daisuke

yeah and the escape hybrid weighs so much more than a normal one that it's worthless for offroad.. but wait... all SUVs are still worthless off road!

and winfree is right, that movie is just sensationalist propaganda by none other than bleeding liberal tree hugger al gore, up in the same loony bin as michael moore and everyone in charge of greenpeace.

Another effect you might want to look up on google is global dimming, has to do with the krakatoa eruption there, and the tambora one. Climate change is real, and it's normal, and the earth's current average temperature is way below all-time historic averages.

You want to lower global temperature? I can get you lower global temperatures. there are ways, dude, believe me... you don't wanna know...

Hybrids cost more and take around 5 years to pay for themselves in gas savings (that's with the tax incentives), and a prius gets more like 45 mpg instead of the 60 claimed (big surprise since 60 is the EPA number...) A saturn ion can get 35-40 mpg without the extra weight of batteries and the lot. The honda civic (older model) gets around 40 mpg highway (reported by a friend that owns one, not quoted from the EPA)

my boss has an audi S4 and is considering exchanging it for the prius, my response to that was something like "are you NUTS????" Oh and for those of you considering an S4, I'm 5'6" and I can hit my head on the roof without trying hard at all.

beachdog

I know how the machinery works. I want to know how the physics works. Energy out cannot exceed energy in. I have not found the MATH supporting the hybrid advantage anywhere.

So far, based on real world usage, the people who get great mileage in hybrids have modified their driving habits because they have the dashboard instrumentation to nanny them. Those who ignore the instrumentation get disappointing results.

You want great mileage without the extra initial cost, drive in an economical fashion. I have a Ford Taurus company car and have had a new one every year for the last 15 years. I can tell you that if I drive the thing hard, it will get 16 mpg in mixed driving. Drive it an economy mode and it will get 28 mpg and sometimes even more. Fact is, the car is such a slug that there is no point to driving it hard cause you aren't really going any faster, so you might as well drive it economically.

For several years, I have thought that the car companies could make a simple change to their drive by wire throttles that would save as much gas as hybrids are theoretically supposed to without the tons of expense or complexity. Just like the auto trans have performance and standard modes, give the throttle a standard and a economy mode. Set the throttle to economy and the nanny takes over. Easy acceleration, governed top speed to 70 no matter how hard you press the throttle. Pedal to the metal for emergency override.

Like i said before, you won't find me signed up on any hybrid waiting lists. BTW, last December, my company offered to get me an Escape hybrid. Even at ZERO COST to me, I turned it down.

Georgia8er

Hybrids get their supposed fuel savings by the regenerative braking. Everytime you take your foot off the accelerator or brake, it is recharging the batteries. Does all of this expensive and heavy technology really increase the fuel economy?

Not in the Honda Civic Hybrid I drove as a company car for a while. To get even close to the EPA fuel economy you could only drive 55 or lower, take off like grandma and hope you didn't have to merge with traffic, do not use the air conditioner, and let your speed go to nothing when going downhill so it would recharge the battery (maybe).

I also found the dash gauge was over 5% off from what you got by figuring the economy manually. Another thing is it uses a much higher final drive ratio than a normal Civic, so yeah it would have to get a little better on the road. A friend of mine has a 2 door Civic and his tach read 3200 at 70 while the Hybrid read around 2000.

Hybrid Civic average fuel economy if you run the A/C and try to drive for economy: 40-43 mpg. Civic 2 door with A/C driven normally: 38-42. Put 800 or so pounds of extra equipment on a car and even if is raises efficency, it's not going to raise fuel economy by much.

Raptor75

With Karaktoa when off it also put a lot of particle matter into the air. The latest theories are that this matter dimmed the sun light enough to cause cooling despite the green house effect. There was warming but the cooling by the dimming masked by this effect.

Clavius

I blame the Evil Monkeys for Global Warming damnit and no one else can tell me other wise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BunnyGirl

I think hybrids are overrated. I know several people in that own them and aren't too thrilled with them. One of my friends has a hybrid Escape. He was getting 22 MPG out of it in 50/50 driving, not the advertised 30 range. He had problems with the electric part of it and the engine would stall out as he was driving it on the freeway. They at first thought it was a faulty wiring problem so it was rewired. Shortly thereafter it started doing it worse. Something ended up shorting out and killing the electrical power and damaging the engine. He now has a brand new engine and electrical power. Now he averages 26 MPG in 50/50 driving. That's pretty pathetic considering my mom's Tribute (the one with the big engine) gets 24.5 range. So, the higher price, higher maintenance costs, not as advertised mileage are not worth it to him. He was going to get something else when his warranty expired, but since he got the new engine they extended his warranty.

Another friend of has a Prius. It gets between 38-45 MPG and never higher no matter what type of commute they have. They aren't too satisfied with it either with the higher costs that went into it and the actual mileage results and car performance in general.

Not to mention that if you are in an accident with one there is a real risk that the car will become charged like a live wire and electrocute emergency personnel or you as you try to get out of the car. I saw this on the news a few months ago.

seymore15074

I couldn't agree more. I'd trade worse mileage for more torque anyday!