Magic8

The May 2004 issue in Sport Compact Cars had an interesting proposal. Stick a Honda-like IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) into the RX-8. The article cites several benefits:

1. Improve Emissions

2. Improved Gas Mileage

3. If Mazda decided to, the RX-8 can have an advance form of all-wheel drive

4. Improved low-end response (torque starts at 0 rpm) without sacrificing the high-end power.

Technical issues:
1. Keeping the batteries charged - if the 8 was drive in the city, then the battery has a lot of oppurtunities to recharge. On extended trips, like a mountain twisties, then there might not be enough juice in the battery pack.

2. Weight - the battery pack can add 150-200 lbs. to the car.


Quote from the article:
"Clearly these two little problems aren't enough to keep Mazda from being interested. Mazda recently hinted at the shape of the third-generation Miata with the Ibuki concept at the Tokyo Motor Show, which happened to be powered by a 1.6-liter four with a clone of the IMA system. The question of an electrically assisted rotary isn't if, it's when. How long will it take for IMA to be cheap enough to stick in a car when marketing doesn't ask for it."

On whether Mazda has the gumption to implement the system....My favorite quote from the article:
"There are few companies with the ***** to make product decisions based on engineering sense before obvious marketability. Few, but not none. Anyone remember the Miller cycle engine? Ever heard of a Wankel rotary? Anyone asking for a four-door sports car? Remember what a crazy idea the Miata once seemed? Mazda will do it. Mazda will do anything."


Personally I will take a RX-8 with an IMA system over a turbocharged one.


Magic8

RX8Bliss

whats an IMA is that like an electric motor? also, why would the batteries be hard to charge on extended trips? wouldn't it be better for the batteries since the alternator would be running longer?

Sue Esponte

Torque at 0 rpm? Please explain the physics of that one.

-Eric

Xyntax

... then I guess you are clueless about the 50HP Type-R sticker :D

megauo

IMA is a combination of an electric motor and a normal internal combustion engine.
The electric motor has a near maximum torque even at 0 RPM so is an ideal complementary to the normal engine at low RPM-s.

MikeW

They should remove the alternator and starter and the air conditioning compressor. Install the flywheel/starter/generator. The car can move off from stop without using any fuel and then the engine can turn on. No more clutch work for stop and go.
Also electric AC

RX8Bliss

no more clutch work? wheres the fun in that?

stangmatt66

I really don't see the point in this.

It makes no sense to take a sports car and put an economy engine package in it as well as at least 200lbs of batteries.

Dumb

Magic8

The idea would be to keep the same Renesis engine, but supplement the engine with the improve low-end response of electric motors. That way you get both low and high-end performance. Of course other benefits may include improve gas mileage and emissions.

Hybrid technology doesn't necessarily have to apply only to econo cars. The technology may work in other applications. Honda and apparently Mazda, has already toyed with this concept.

Magic8

Actually the article cited the fact the IMA is more desireable for a sports car than the full hybrid system used by Toyota is the IMA works with manual transmission. I don't have all the details but apparently the full-hybrid system requires an auto transmission.

blksf8

I guess we all need to run out to Barnes and Noble to drink some Starbuck's coffee and read the May edition of Sport Compact Car.

Rotary Soul

adding 150~200lbs??? mazda is thinking about it? that just sounds crazy. mazda is all about the lightweight, i highly doubt they'll risk adding 200lbs to a RX model. they'll never do it.

MikeW

When you are in stop/go you leave the car in first but the car is off. you hit the throttle and the electic MOTOR accelerates the car up to 5 mph and then the fuel injectors start spraying, and the spark plugs start firing and off you go. So if in stop and go, you never exceed 5 mph, you would (could, if the battery was not depleted) operate exclusively on electric power.

After this, normal clutch stick action.

bubble

The 8 would be even more of a family car if it had an electric motor. The only car I've seen with this concept is the Eclipse E Concept. The car will be a joke if has the 2 motors. Hell, it will be a joke anyways but it will weigh close to metric ton with 2 motors. It would be faster with 2 motors but there is no way any real driver would be caught dead in it. The curb weight may be the single most important factor affecting performance.

jonnyb

then lose a few pounds and dont carry any passengers. if youre that conerned about weight why arent you driving a miata?


jeez some of you are totally clueless. i would think that rotary owners would jump at the idea of having instant torque instead of having to wait until the engine hits 5k rpms and lets not forget about the crazy gas mileage. doesnt anyone realize a whole new breed of sportscars are about to emerge? to say a real driver wouldnt be caught dead in a hybrid sports car is just plain ignorant.

have a look at the hybrid concept toyota is working on http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/...tid=21889&pg=1

confucious

I think this is a good idea. It's one I've thought about before ever since the issues of "low-torque" and "poor fuel economy" were brought up. I never brought it up (don't think I did anyways) because I didn't expect many people here to be willing to sacrifice the weight for the benefits. A large vocal group of people here already want the RX-8 to be more like an RX-7 and IMA is the wrong direction for that.

Don't forget there's that one concept that's got like a 100 hp electric motor for the front wheels and a 300 hp gas engine for the rear. I think it was some american company that came up with it (Dodge maybe). Not to mention Mazda's concept Hydrogen RX-8. Hybrid technology is not just for fuel economy.

ricks8

You can have torque without motion. Torque is a force. Right now the floor is applying about 200 lbs of force against me, and me against it, but neither of us is moving relative to each other.

Electric motors develop maximum torque at zero RPM.

rotarynews.com

Mazda has already shown the prototype for this a hybrid rotary!

http://rotarynews.com/view.php?id=216

Their RX-7 Hydrogen RE concept had quite a few engineering concepts on it, that as a whole, worked together quite nicely.

zoom44

wow that mag is completly behind the times. i have been preaching this story for over a year.

my thoughts can be found in ealier threads

here

here

in this thread


there is more but you should get the gist from those

PhineasFellOff

Are any of you aware of the Honda Accord Hybrid that is coming out in Fall 2004 (yes 2004)?

Details have been kept tight but it's said to make more horsepower than the current Accord V6 (the current car makes 240), have greater performance (the electric assist motor will give it torque on demand), and get Civic-level gas mileage (to me, that means 36-40 mpg) through VCM (variable cylinder management), which will shut off one bank of three cylinders during cruising.

Honda has been able to make the batteries lighter than ever. I would think they will continue to get smaller and lighter over time so that weight increase will be less and less.

Magic8

Anyone get "Technology Review" MIT's magazine for innovation?

Great article in there about Toyota's Hybrid efforts. They really invested a lot into this technology. Toyota even invested, according to some analyst, close to $1 billion to build a chip plant to produce the chip in the control system for their hybrid systems.

From the article it appears that Toyota views hybrid as the intermediate step to hydrogen (if we ever get there.) Hydrogen power while is nice, needs a lot more time to develop into a feasible concept. Converting or supplement a nation's infastructure alone for hydrogen will take decades. In their mind, a lot of the technology developed for hybrid, slots in nicely to hydrogen. For example, lighter and higher capacity batteries is applicable for both hybrid and hydrogen. The control system can be used for both systems.

GM and Ford which was focused heavily on developing hydrogen, is now trying to catch up with hybrid. Unfortunately for them, the Japanese manufacturer are significantly ahead in both design and manufacturing. Both company will probably release hybrid cars with Toyota or Honda hybrid drivetrains.

Toyota is planning to have hybrid option for most of the their products, even for their Lexus line. In the near future, they are planning to release a hybrid Camry, Highlander, and RX330.

ERicInCal

I would LOVE a well executed hybrid system. I think the Prius advertising piece I read said that the electric engine it has in it puts out 295 ftlb of torque at 1500 rpm. Something I read about that mitsubishi eclipse (prototype) had 268 hp gas engine and almost 200hp electric. (dont quote me). Imagine what the car could feel like with some real low end grunt. As it is, the car already feels like it has an electric motor in it.

Cool thing also is that the batteries would recharge during braking, therefore city driving MPG would vastly improve. Also, with electric engines, you could modify them with simple mapping programs to say... double the amps for 1/2 the time, thereby increaing horsepower when you needed it. Granted it wouldnt last as long, but it would be nice to have the choice. right now the hybrid systems are geared towards efficiency, but my bet is that with a little software programming, you could get those electric engines to really fly!

zerohour

What ever happened to the whole fuel cell idea?

Rotary Soul

well that's a misunderstanding. i honestly don't understand why you would say something like that, but to clarify, i was saying that adding 200 lbs to a RX model doesn't seem to go with mazda's design philosophy. the rx-7 and the rx-8 have a definite weight advantage over the competition, and i really can't see why you would disagree when i say that the weight advantage of the rx models have always been a big deal. i mean, for about 18 months before the rx-8 came out, probably the most discussed topic on this forum was curb weight. it has nothing to do with my ignorance, (maybe it does, but i just think you're mean) lightweight is just a huge part of the whole mazda and rotary bit. sure, mazda is known for doing radical stuff, but i don't think it will happen. what would people say if the next rx-7 had a curbweight of 3000+ lbs??

WinningBlue

I like it. More Torque off the line. Better Fuel economy. Mazda engineers- shave some extra weight and put a cool electronic monitoring system in the dash like the Prius. I drove an EV once, and it was a BLAST off the line....