RPM's the thing
04-12-2005, 09:17 PM
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RPM's the thing
I think many of you understand that the Renesis is a sporty, high RPM engine and has to be driven accordingly to ring out the performance. Having said that, I also have noticed numerous complaints that the Renesis lacks torque. I'm going to step out on a limb and say that's probably a qualified complaint. Yes, it lacks torque, but it's not that lacking when wound up a bit. In my [feeble] mind, the Renesis has the nature of a true, small, sports car engine; it must be "worked" [maybe "managed" is a better word] to get the optimal performance. A big-bore engine it's not. Here's an odd, if not interesting comparison:
My Nissan pickup has an OHC 2.4L, I-4, 3-valve per cylinder engine that cranks out 134 HP at 5500 RPM and 154 lb-ft. of torque at 3600 RPM. To drive it around town one would think it's pretty torquey for it's size. A pretty good "grunt" engine. Rev it, lug it, it's happy, it goes. It's looks are deceptive.
Now, my dimunitive 1.3L Renesis cranks out 238 HP [HP controversy aside] at 8500 RPM and 159 lb-ft of torque at 5500 RPM. But wait! What's this? The Renesis makes slightly MORE torque than my venerable old 2.4L, yet it doesn't FEEL that way! Why? Because the Renesis's torque occurs at a relatively high RPM. Essentially, that's the difference. Max torque at 5500 RPM is relatively lofty place. Yes, no? I think few drivers launch their 8 while slipping their precious clutch at that RPM, for good reason.
So, my conclusion is that reasonably good torque is available from the Renesis, but not under ordinary driving conditions. I think most of us don't go there simply because we choose not to fry our clutch. Or, we just don't cruise the streets at 5500 RPM. Like it or not, the Renesis is a small engine and needs to rev to really go. If you need gobs of low-end torque, put a kompressor on it or defect to a "big-bore" piston engine.
<flame away>
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1.3L
My Nissan pickup has an OHC 2.4L, I-4, 3-valve per cylinder engine that cranks out 134 HP at 5500 RPM and 154 lb-ft. of torque at 3600 RPM. To drive it around town one would think it's pretty torquey for it's size. A pretty good "grunt" engine. Rev it, lug it, it's happy, it goes. It's looks are deceptive.
Now, my dimunitive 1.3L Renesis cranks out 238 HP [HP controversy aside] at 8500 RPM and 159 lb-ft of torque at 5500 RPM. But wait! What's this? The Renesis makes slightly MORE torque than my venerable old 2.4L, yet it doesn't FEEL that way! Why? Because the Renesis's torque occurs at a relatively high RPM. Essentially, that's the difference. Max torque at 5500 RPM is relatively lofty place. Yes, no? I think few drivers launch their 8 while slipping their precious clutch at that RPM, for good reason.
So, my conclusion is that reasonably good torque is available from the Renesis, but not under ordinary driving conditions. I think most of us don't go there simply because we choose not to fry our clutch. Or, we just don't cruise the streets at 5500 RPM. Like it or not, the Renesis is a small engine and needs to rev to really go. If you need gobs of low-end torque, put a kompressor on it or defect to a "big-bore" piston engine.
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1.3L
04-13-2005, 12:15 AM
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Actually, the RX-8 makes near peak torque from relatively low revs on up...`
It's just that it only makes a maximum of 159 foot pounds - but the car has a very flat torque curve. It's the horsepower that is pretty peaky. Take a look at the dyno curves and maybe you'll understand. Horsepower develops in an almost 1 to 1 relationship with rpm. That's a 45 degree angle curve. The torque curve is very flat in comparison.
Last edited by BasenjiGuy; 04-13-2005 at 12:20 AM.
04-13-2005, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by 1.3L
I think many of you understand that the Renesis is a sporty, high RPM engine and has to be driven accordingly to ring out the performance. Having said that, I also have noticed numerous complaints that the Renesis lacks torque. I'm going to step out on a limb and say that's probably a qualified complaint. Yes, it lacks torque, but it's not that lacking when wound up a bit. In my [feeble] mind, the Renesis has the nature of a true, small, sports car engine; it must be "worked" [maybe "managed" is a better word] to get the optimal performance. A big-bore engine it's not. Here's an odd, if not interesting comparison:
My Nissan pickup has an OHC 2.4L, I-4, 3-valve per cylinder engine that cranks out 134 HP at 5500 RPM and 154 lb-ft. of torque at 3600 RPM. To drive it around town one would think it's pretty torquey for it's size. A pretty good "grunt" engine. Rev it, lug it, it's happy, it goes. It's looks are deceptive.
Now, my dimunitive 1.3L Renesis cranks out 238 HP [HP controversy aside] at 8500 RPM and 159 lb-ft of torque at 5500 RPM. But wait! What's this? The Renesis makes slightly MORE torque than my venerable old 2.4L, yet it doesn't FEEL that way! Why? Because the Renesis's torque occurs at a relatively high RPM. Essentially, that's the difference. Max torque at 5500 RPM is relatively lofty place. Yes, no? I think few drivers launch their 8 while slipping their precious clutch at that RPM, for good reason.
So, my conclusion is that reasonably good torque is available from the Renesis, but not under ordinary driving conditions. I think most of us don't go there simply because we choose not to fry our clutch. Or, we just don't cruise the streets at 5500 RPM. Like it or not, the Renesis is a small engine and needs to rev to really go. If you need gobs of low-end torque, put a kompressor on it or defect to a "big-bore" piston engine.
<flame away>
<shields up>
1.3L
My Nissan pickup has an OHC 2.4L, I-4, 3-valve per cylinder engine that cranks out 134 HP at 5500 RPM and 154 lb-ft. of torque at 3600 RPM. To drive it around town one would think it's pretty torquey for it's size. A pretty good "grunt" engine. Rev it, lug it, it's happy, it goes. It's looks are deceptive.
Now, my dimunitive 1.3L Renesis cranks out 238 HP [HP controversy aside] at 8500 RPM and 159 lb-ft of torque at 5500 RPM. But wait! What's this? The Renesis makes slightly MORE torque than my venerable old 2.4L, yet it doesn't FEEL that way! Why? Because the Renesis's torque occurs at a relatively high RPM. Essentially, that's the difference. Max torque at 5500 RPM is relatively lofty place. Yes, no? I think few drivers launch their 8 while slipping their precious clutch at that RPM, for good reason.
So, my conclusion is that reasonably good torque is available from the Renesis, but not under ordinary driving conditions. I think most of us don't go there simply because we choose not to fry our clutch. Or, we just don't cruise the streets at 5500 RPM. Like it or not, the Renesis is a small engine and needs to rev to really go. If you need gobs of low-end torque, put a kompressor on it or defect to a "big-bore" piston engine.
<flame away>
<shields up>
1.3L
04-13-2005, 01:21 AM
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There are some members on the site that are going to give me **** about this, but their only in denial....................................
I think people Bitch because they have no idea and are use to Big Engines, Turbo's and Superchargers. Get a Manufacture that knows how to make an engine and you'll get what your looking for. ( Not saying that Many Manufacture's know don't know how to make good engine, Because they do!) But What do you expect from a 1.3L Engine? How many Manufactures wish they could make an 1.3L Engine that can perform like the RX8 without Massive Torque, Super Chargers and Turbo's. You drop that out of the equation and you have a bunch of Manufactures that are Lost! You have people that say, we'll their engines will designed to have Turbo's and Superchargers. Well, I tell them Listen for ONCE. "What IF" for once............... "What IF"the Manufactures like Subaru(Turbo's), Mitsubishi(Turbo's) and Nissan (Big Liter Engines) didn't have all that extra luggage. "WHAT IF" Mazda Decided to Drop a Supercharger or Turbo in the RX8. These So Called Sports Cars would be getting their asses handed to them and even worse than they are now! Anyone that denies that is full of ****! The RX8 gives them a run for their Money on a 1.3L Rotary Engine with No Turbo, No Supercharger and most of all No Torque! But people still have the nerve to bitch about it. The RX8 is what it is and that is NOT slow! It may not be as fast as an STI or EVO but like a said drop Torque, Supercharger or an Turbo in the RX8 from the Manufacture and the competition is DONE! Too Many people are hooked on what they have without looking at the real picture. So I say to those Hatter's, love your Nissan's, Subaru's and Etc but when it comes down to it, look at the whole package and you'll see who's the real champ!
I think people Bitch because they have no idea and are use to Big Engines, Turbo's and Superchargers. Get a Manufacture that knows how to make an engine and you'll get what your looking for. ( Not saying that Many Manufacture's know don't know how to make good engine, Because they do!) But What do you expect from a 1.3L Engine? How many Manufactures wish they could make an 1.3L Engine that can perform like the RX8 without Massive Torque, Super Chargers and Turbo's. You drop that out of the equation and you have a bunch of Manufactures that are Lost! You have people that say, we'll their engines will designed to have Turbo's and Superchargers. Well, I tell them Listen for ONCE. "What IF" for once............... "What IF"the Manufactures like Subaru(Turbo's), Mitsubishi(Turbo's) and Nissan (Big Liter Engines) didn't have all that extra luggage. "WHAT IF" Mazda Decided to Drop a Supercharger or Turbo in the RX8. These So Called Sports Cars would be getting their asses handed to them and even worse than they are now! Anyone that denies that is full of ****! The RX8 gives them a run for their Money on a 1.3L Rotary Engine with No Turbo, No Supercharger and most of all No Torque! But people still have the nerve to bitch about it. The RX8 is what it is and that is NOT slow! It may not be as fast as an STI or EVO but like a said drop Torque, Supercharger or an Turbo in the RX8 from the Manufacture and the competition is DONE! Too Many people are hooked on what they have without looking at the real picture. So I say to those Hatter's, love your Nissan's, Subaru's and Etc but when it comes down to it, look at the whole package and you'll see who's the real champ!
04-13-2005, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by RX4life
^^ techinally speaking a 1.3 rotary is equivalent to a 2.6 piston if im not mistaken... so ya.. just pointin that out..
04-13-2005, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by cas2themoe
There are some members on the site that are going to give me **** about this, but their only in denial....................................
I think people Bitch because they have no idea and are use to Big Engines, Turbo's and Superchargers. Get a Manufacture that knows how to make an engine and you'll get what your looking for. ( Not saying that Many Manufacture's know don't know how to make good engine, Because they do!) But What do you expect from a 1.3L Engine? How many Manufactures wish they could make an 1.3L Engine that can perform like the RX8 without Massive Torque, Super Chargers and Turbo's. You drop that out of the equation and you have a bunch of Manufactures that are Lost! You have people that say, we'll their engines will designed to have Turbo's and Superchargers. Well, I tell them Listen for ONCE. "What IF" for once............... "What IF"the Manufactures like Subaru(Turbo's), Mitsubishi(Turbo's) and Nissan (Big Liter Engines) didn't have all that extra luggage. "WHAT IF" Mazda Decided to Drop a Supercharger or Turbo in the RX8. These So Called Sports Cars would be getting their asses handed to them and even worse than they are now! Anyone that denies that is full of ****! The RX8 gives them a run for their Money on a 1.3L Rotary Engine with No Turbo, No Supercharger and most of all No Torque! But people still have the nerve to bitch about it. The RX8 is what it is and that is NOT slow! It may not be as fast as an STI or EVO but like a said drop Torque, Supercharger or an Turbo in the RX8 from the Manufacture and the competition is DONE! Too Many people are hooked on what they have without looking at the real picture. So I say to those Hatter's, love your Nissan's, Subaru's and Etc but when it comes down to it, look at the whole package and you'll see who's the real champ!
I think people Bitch because they have no idea and are use to Big Engines, Turbo's and Superchargers. Get a Manufacture that knows how to make an engine and you'll get what your looking for. ( Not saying that Many Manufacture's know don't know how to make good engine, Because they do!) But What do you expect from a 1.3L Engine? How many Manufactures wish they could make an 1.3L Engine that can perform like the RX8 without Massive Torque, Super Chargers and Turbo's. You drop that out of the equation and you have a bunch of Manufactures that are Lost! You have people that say, we'll their engines will designed to have Turbo's and Superchargers. Well, I tell them Listen for ONCE. "What IF" for once............... "What IF"the Manufactures like Subaru(Turbo's), Mitsubishi(Turbo's) and Nissan (Big Liter Engines) didn't have all that extra luggage. "WHAT IF" Mazda Decided to Drop a Supercharger or Turbo in the RX8. These So Called Sports Cars would be getting their asses handed to them and even worse than they are now! Anyone that denies that is full of ****! The RX8 gives them a run for their Money on a 1.3L Rotary Engine with No Turbo, No Supercharger and most of all No Torque! But people still have the nerve to bitch about it. The RX8 is what it is and that is NOT slow! It may not be as fast as an STI or EVO but like a said drop Torque, Supercharger or an Turbo in the RX8 from the Manufacture and the competition is DONE! Too Many people are hooked on what they have without looking at the real picture. So I say to those Hatter's, love your Nissan's, Subaru's and Etc but when it comes down to it, look at the whole package and you'll see who's the real champ!
04-13-2005, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by IkeWRX
First, paragraphs are your friend. Second, saying a car that doesn't exist is better than cars that do exist is moronic.
Supercharges and Turbo's are add-ons in my eyes. Design Teams that can build Torque and(or) High RPM's right into the Engine without the need of a Turbo and Supercharger is a bigger accomplishment in my eyes. The whole point of this thread was to talk about why people complain about the lack of torque. My answer to that is, people are not use to the Rotary Engine and its Broad Power Band.
You'll never get the point and are too suborn to open your mind to anything. Stay to sleeping on the couch................ that's where you'll be for the rest of your life.
04-13-2005, 08:01 AM
#14
Originally Posted by cas2themoe
Everybody in every Forum in the world knows the cars I stated don't exist. (Even if I'm making a legitimate statement that makes sense) If you read what I was saying, the RX8 "is what it is".
Supercharges and Turbo's are add-ons in my eyes. Design Teams that can build Torque and(or) High RPM's right into the Engine without the need of a Turbo and Supercharger is a bigger accomplishment in my eyes. The whole point of this thread was to talk about why people complain about the lack of torque. My answer to that is, people are not use to the Rotary Engine and its Broad Power Band.
You'll never get the point and are too suborn to open your mind to anything. Stay to sleeping on the couch................ that's where you'll be for the rest of your life.
Supercharges and Turbo's are add-ons in my eyes. Design Teams that can build Torque and(or) High RPM's right into the Engine without the need of a Turbo and Supercharger is a bigger accomplishment in my eyes. The whole point of this thread was to talk about why people complain about the lack of torque. My answer to that is, people are not use to the Rotary Engine and its Broad Power Band.
You'll never get the point and are too suborn to open your mind to anything. Stay to sleeping on the couch................ that's where you'll be for the rest of your life.
! The Rotary is like a building orgasm...exploading with power at peak excitement and activity.
04-13-2005, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by truemagellen
Cas2 you are right on again ! The Rotary is like a building orgasm...exploading with power at peak excitement and activity.
! The Rotary is like a building orgasm...exploading with power at peak excitement and activity.
04-13-2005, 08:57 AM
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It's a quick car above 6k rpm's. If you want to go fast go there, if you don't want to go there get a different car.
Heck my sentra and eclipse have more torque than my rx8 but the rx8 is a second faster to 60. Although being able to squeek the tires through the first 5 gears in the sentra with the torque and front wheel drive is kinda fun too.
Heck my sentra and eclipse have more torque than my rx8 but the rx8 is a second faster to 60. Although being able to squeek the tires through the first 5 gears in the sentra with the torque and front wheel drive is kinda fun too.
04-13-2005, 10:10 AM
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In MY opinion, FWD = at best a sporty car but not a TRUE sports car. I know FWD's have done some great things but when you are designing a sports car...you normally have only two options, RWD or AWD if you want the car to handle at it's best.
Note: I've owned two very good handling FWD cars (NX2000 & Probe GT) and I know the old Integra was able to handle very well, but again...IN MY opinion you have to go RWD or AWD when you are talking sports cars. Case in point...how many FWD super cars do you find?
I for one do not cry about torque...since the first test drive, it's not a big issue. Yes I would like more of it but what the 8 can do with what it does have is amazing. I can respect something from any sports car but when you have a Turbo or SC and compare it to a NA engine it's a little foolish.
Evo's & STI's are fast as heck and handle very well, but that's what happens when you TURBO the hell out of a small car.
Camaro's & Mustangs (the American way) use big engines to produce big power with gobs of smile producing torque.
The RX8 is a complete sports car, yes it could have more power, but is in NO WAY a slow car.
I think Ike respects the 8 but wishes it produced more power. It's competitors (350Z, GTO, Mustang GT) are all faster than the 8 but none of them match it in so many other area's.
Ike's sometimes disdane for our 8 is (wink wink...lol :p ) deep rooted in his hidden love affair with it yet he can't take his hands off his WRX when the 8 is just not fast enough in his eyes.
We all got the 8 based on something more than straight line speed. The 8 handles (overall) better then all 3 of those cars. The 8 looks significantly better than those 3 (add the S2K, WRX, and EVO in that list too) and it's fun factor can't be touched.
Note: Blah blah blah...yes yes, I know...looks are subjective...
So, don't get mad at Ike. I wish the 8 had another 65 (enter Greddy turbo here) HP too, but in it's present state and with every other mile that I drive the car the facts remain.
THE MAZDA RX8 IS ONE HELL OF A SPORTS CAR!!!
Any true sports car person can not ignore that FACT!
Note: I've owned two very good handling FWD cars (NX2000 & Probe GT) and I know the old Integra was able to handle very well, but again...IN MY opinion you have to go RWD or AWD when you are talking sports cars. Case in point...how many FWD super cars do you find?
I for one do not cry about torque...since the first test drive, it's not a big issue. Yes I would like more of it but what the 8 can do with what it does have is amazing. I can respect something from any sports car but when you have a Turbo or SC and compare it to a NA engine it's a little foolish.
Evo's & STI's are fast as heck and handle very well, but that's what happens when you TURBO the hell out of a small car.
Camaro's & Mustangs (the American way) use big engines to produce big power with gobs of smile producing torque.
The RX8 is a complete sports car, yes it could have more power, but is in NO WAY a slow car.
I think Ike respects the 8 but wishes it produced more power. It's competitors (350Z, GTO, Mustang GT) are all faster than the 8 but none of them match it in so many other area's.
Ike's sometimes disdane for our 8 is (wink wink...lol :p ) deep rooted in his hidden love affair with it yet he can't take his hands off his WRX when the 8 is just not fast enough in his eyes.
We all got the 8 based on something more than straight line speed. The 8 handles (overall) better then all 3 of those cars. The 8 looks significantly better than those 3 (add the S2K, WRX, and EVO in that list too) and it's fun factor can't be touched.
Note: Blah blah blah...yes yes, I know...looks are subjective...
So, don't get mad at Ike. I wish the 8 had another 65 (enter Greddy turbo here) HP too, but in it's present state and with every other mile that I drive the car the facts remain.
THE MAZDA RX8 IS ONE HELL OF A SPORTS CAR!!!
Any true sports car person can not ignore that FACT!
04-13-2005, 10:41 AM
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I'd drive it at 6k RPM's all the time (as I don't care about MPG) but I worry that even though it's a rotary engine, driving anything at that speed will shorten the longevity of the engine, am I right?
EDIT: and yes I agree with Rx8wannahave (did I really just say that? :p )
EDIT: and yes I agree with Rx8wannahave (did I really just say that? :p )
Last edited by Rupes; 04-13-2005 at 10:44 AM.
04-13-2005, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by IkeWRX
Well... neither your truck nor your RX-8 make much torque. But I agree you notice the torque in a car more when it hits low in the RPM range, drive a turbo diesel and you'll certainly know what I mean. If you need to wind a car up to get to the peak torque, that torque is pretty pointless in my eyes. You also don't need to go to a "big-bore" piston engine to get gobs of low end torque. Well maybe gobs you do but drive some of the VQ engine Nissans or certain turboed 4 cylinders and you'll see why people complain of lack of torque in the RX-8 and S2K. For me it's not a big deal and I enjoy both cars, but the RX-8 could use a little more kick in the pants which I think is more a hp thing than torque.
What I fail to understand is why some owners expect such a small, normally asperated engine to behave like a 3.5L V-6 or some other sporty, turboed engine. It's apples and oranges...
1.3L
04-13-2005, 12:08 PM
#24
Cas, you need to lay off that lame *** comparison you always make about taking the turbo out of cars. The cars were designed WITH turbos. Why do people think that it's cheating to have a factory turbo car? The argument that you can't compare one car to another because one of them has a factory turbo is stupid and it needs to stop.
As for wannahaves comments. The idea of a true sports car is different from person to person. You often preach the very same stuff as in that post, calling it a true sports car, its so well rounded etc, and saying nobody can argue that. Basically presenting your opinion as fact. The 8 doesn't fit my definition of a true sports car, IMO, it is closer to a GT with great handling.
As for wannahaves comments. The idea of a true sports car is different from person to person. You often preach the very same stuff as in that post, calling it a true sports car, its so well rounded etc, and saying nobody can argue that. Basically presenting your opinion as fact. The 8 doesn't fit my definition of a true sports car, IMO, it is closer to a GT with great handling.