RPM going into 1st Gear?
 

Just curious at what RPM most of you go into 1st Gear from a dead stop.

I'm trying like mad to improve my gas mileage and I think I'm overrevving going into 1st. The problem is being a newbie stick driver and not having a lot of experience on other cars, I can't get good advice from friends who drive non-rotary cars. Their RPM's are meaningless to a rotary owner :)

Please keep in mind I have seen some threads about clutch dropping at various RPM's for fast take-off's but I'm mainly interested in a "standard stop and go" situation.

FWIW I'm engaging the clutch at about 2500 RPM, sometimes slightly higher since I tend to over-rev for fear of stalling.
As soon as I engage the clutch I lose about 1000 RPM and anything under 2500 RPM as an engage point feels like I may stall or lurch the car.

HELP!

edit: I also engage very slowly (only going into 1st) but I've heard this is bad and I don't know how to measure whether my I'm coming off the clutch too slow going into first.

I would imagine this is your first stick shift. If you are going to a dead stop anyway, you don't have to put it into 1st until you do. As long as you hold the clutch in, the car won't stall. Just as you are coming to a stop, let off your gas, engage clutch at desired RPMs, when you come to a complete stop, put into 1st, then push on the accelerator, and let the clutch out slowly. If you disengage at 2500 RPM, that's fine, just let out the clutch slowly and you won't stall as long as you are giving it gas.

I used to engage the clutch at about 1000-1500 RPM but it can sometimes make for a slightly rough start so now I'm usually at about 1500-2000 RPM when I engage.

On inclines when I know I've got a car behind me I'll let the RPMs fall real low until I can feel the clutch grabbing before I step on the gas just to make sure I don't roll back too much.

The funny thing about going into 1st from a dead stop is that once the clutch beings engaging and if you're at a relatively low RPM, slamming on more gas doesn't immediately make the car go.

It's always going to feel smoother if you're revving a few RPMs when starting in 1st. I'm sure eveyone has a different opinion but IMO on flat ground from a dead stop, about 1700-1800 is ideal.

My last MT car was 15 years ago when I had my 84 GSL-SE and I seem to recall being able to start at a lower RPM in 1st with that car and still driving smoothly. The 8 just feels like it starts off better in 1st with a few more RPMs.

If you can prevent the RPM's from dropping while slipping into 1st, you're golden. The faster you do it (without dropping the clutch of course), the better it is for the car.

FWIW, the manual states not to go into 1st unless you are going under 20 mph, I tend to let the synchros do the work when I come to a complete stop, then I rev as high as I like depending on how fast I want to take off, then smooth out the clutch. There are a lot of older cars that have no 1st gear synchros so you would have to come to a complete stop before you could put it into 1st.

Because I tend to be a low RPM starter there were times where it felt like the car was going to stall but I can kind of feel it and I'll press in the clutch quickly to keep the motor running. So now I try to pick up the RPMS to that 1700 RPM or so range I mentioned.

Everyone is different and you'll find what works best for you. As for disengaging too slowly being bad for the car, I doubt any of us will do much harm to the car because of it. I think the owners manual said avoid riding the clutch as a means of balancing on inclines but other than that I think your disengage point is a matter of personal preference and what feels best/smoothest to you.

The only time I've ever stalled my 8 was the other night at my dad's house. I normally start my car in neutral but for some reason I forgot the car was in gear and after I turned the key I let the clutch out and car did the little hop forward and died :p I usually let the motor run in neutral for a bit whenever I start the car rather than take off immediately after it starts. Luckily my dad was on the side of my car and not in front, otherwise I might have hit him.

Thanks for the advice guys. Sounds like I need a little more work so I can accelerate smoothly at a lower RPM.

I have another question. Relating to bumper-to-bumper rush hour traffic.

I can't figure out how to make the car go really slow - say 10 MPH or so. If I give it the slighest amount of gas it is lurchy and starts to gradually accelerate. Of course no gas is not possible either.

Is the proper technique to alternate gas/clutch constantly to maintain that low speed? This question arises not just from bumper to bumper traffic but also getting out of my neighborhood with speed bumps and all.

It just seems overall like the car doesn't like low speeds (duh it's a sportscar, lol). Similar problem if I'm in second and trying to maintain say a 20 mph consistent speed...I can't seem to modulate the throttle without accelerating or lurching a little as I goose it.

You can drive in 1st gear smoothly in traffic. With NO gas, the car will move at about 5 MPH. Accelerate smoothly in 1st and you can move in traffic at 10-12 MPH easily but DON'T just let off the gas all at once when in 1st, the car will lurch. If you're in 1st moving along at 10-12 MPH, let off gas slowly and you'll slow back down and then you can let your foot off the gas completely and move along at about 5 MPH. In the lower gears you really need to be smooth with the gas pedal.

Always try to look ahead 5-10 cars so you know if you have to slow down or speed up so you can do it gradually...that is assuming you can see in front of all the mini-vans and SUVs on the roads these days.

If the traffic is flowing faster than that you'll probably want to be in 2nd but I'll stay in 1st in traffic up until about 10-12 MPH. I never downshift into 1st and I'm pretty sure most others don't either. If I'm rolling, I won't go into first unless under about 5 MPH.

You also don't want to be in 2nd if the car is moving too slowly because that's when the motor lugs.

Well I'm glad I posted this and wish I had posted earlier. Thanks i3man, because you'll chuckle when I tell you that I didn't know you could keep moving smoothly in first with no gas. I always just assumed no gas on a stick shift = stall. Didn't even bother to risk trying it.

I'll practice what you're talking about tomorrow in my daily bumper to bumper commute.

edit: actually lemme go try this right now.

Let us know how it goes.

LOL too funny. I am such a moron.

You're right though, the gas pedal is very touchy as you try to come off of it in first. When I was doing this before the car would feel lurchy so I just equated this with the car being about to stall and would either push in the clutch or give it gas.

I can't believe I didn't know you could coast in 1st at 5mph with no gas. Obviously if you brake to below 4-5mph and try this you'll stall, right?

To carry this further I tried the same strategy in higher gears like 4th and that didn't go so well...lol.

Can you do the same in 2nd or is 1st the only real gear that you can coast indefinitely w/ no gas?

If someone posts a Dumb Thread of the Year award please nominate this one. :p

Pretty much 1st is the only gear you can do that in. In any other gear you'll start slowing down too much and the motor will lug and you'll eventually have to downshift anyways.

And you're absolutely right on stalling if you if you brake while coasting in 1st. If you're coasting along in 1st and you need to slow you better step in the clutch to keep from stalling. Also if you're on a slight incline it gets harder to coast in 1st without stepping the gas. But on flat ground you can coast indefinitely in 1st without touching the gas.

Consider yourself and old pro driving MT now :p

as long as you are going fast enough for the gear, you can coast in any gear.

That is true but we're talking about driving in stop-and-go traffic and how many times do you make into 6th gear in stop-and-go traffic :p

When you're coming to a complete stop at say a traffic light from 40 MPH you can stay in 4th and press brake until you're at about 1500 RPM and then step in the clutch and come to a stop.

The transmission will act as a brake anyways so eventually you'll end up downshifting or stopping when you're in a higher gear. Only in 1st can you essentially coast along indefinitely without stepping on the gas.

No this is not a dumb thread. I also never knew that you could go 5 mph in first by letting the engine idle. I thought I was in bog area and always clutched going that slow. To maintain a slow pace (rush hour) I would let out the clutch a little to get a bump and then depress the clutch again.

To answer the original question, what rpm to take off from a start, it depends on skill level. The other day I was dropping my teenager off at high school, we were behind a Mustang, the stang would rev and then move forward one car distance when appropraite. I started doing the same thing and it was real easy to let the clutch out slightly at 3k rpm (basically what I call bouncing off the clutch) and then reclutch and come to the next stop. I explained this to my teenager (that I was currently teaching our to drive a stick in my 8) and the next time she drove it she was MUCH better at taking off. That said, I reexamined the way I usually take off, and I don't give any gas until I feel the clutch start to grab. So I don't pre-rev unless I'm on a hill. I think the more stick experience you have and the more times you've driven your car (each is different) the more likely you are to be able to match gas pedel depression with clutch release such that no pre-rev is required and the take off is smooth as silk.

I just got home after driving in some stop-and-go traffic and since this thread came about I did give it a little more thought and notice as I was driving.

Although the car can coast along in 1st w/out gas, it is kinda lurchy and I find that I give it ever so slightly enough gas so that it is not lurchy...which allows you to go at a pace of about 6-7 MPH. I'll stay in 1st modulating w/ gas up until about 15 MPH but again the the key is watching the traffic flow. If the cars start speeding up I'll shift into 2nd but if I can see the car slowing I'll just modulate in 1st and ease off. When I know I'm going to have to stop I normally press in the clutch and shift into neutral and coast well before I come to a stop.

There is no right or wrong and after a while we all find what works best for us and gives us the most driving comfort. You can always get good feedback from your passengers. If they look queasy and nauseas that's probably a signal to learn how to drive smoother.

Vamp on a side note, you can actually go from a dead stop to coasting in 1st with out pressing any gas at all on flat ground. If you do it very gradually it will be very smooth and it won't even lurch.

Darnit, I was thinking about this thread so much while I was driving home I forgot to stop and buy dinner. Oh well, looks like it's Pop Tarts for dinner.

that is very true, In 1st gear the engine gives enough gas where upon flat land you can coast with no gas or clutch until you run out of gas. I just meant if you were on the interstate, you could have it in 6th gear and coast down a hill.

Here is my two cents. I hope it helps Vamp. Anyway, the key to driving manual is smoothness. to take off smooth, you need to let off of the clutch smoothly. This takes alot of practice. After driving the car for a while you will get a feel for it. So the jerkier you let off of the clutch, the jerkier your takeoff is gonna be. Also, as i3man said you don't really need the gas peddle at all. I have a truck with a manual and in it if I have enough road and it is empty, I can take off from a dead stop and run through all five gears without pressing the gas at all. Its probably not the best for it since it lugs pretty bad in fifth though :) Anyway, feel free to ask any other questions. Hope this helped a little.

-JiM

i drive the same way...i release the clutch to the friction point, gas a little then balance between clutch/gas from there...

also, you can add me to the list of people that didn't know you could coast in 1st gear...

You guys are great...I came in today expecting a little ridicule and instead I found more helpful people. I'll practice letting off the clutch to go into 1st from a dead stop WITHOUT gas, b/c I think once I get the hang of that I'll overcome my fear of stalling that's causing me to overrev.

Again guys thanks for being so helpful to a stick newb. Sorry that this thread forced you to have a pop tart for dinner i3man :)

After reading this thread last night, the first thing I did this morning was take my foot off the gas in first to see this for myself (after the car was warmed up, just in case it did stall). Maintained 4 mph! No bog at all. Wow the things we learn here.

You can also coast in reverse. If your in the parking lot just put it in reverse and find the friction point. It's good practice.

Moving smoothly in 1st gear under 2k engine speed
 

If you're trying to avoid the head toss effect when you let off the gas in 1st gear at low speeds, a moment before letting off the gas, engage the cluth slightly, let off the gas, let off the clutch. Works for 2nd gear as well.

My habit in stop and go traffic is to let the car ahead open up some space so I could at least maintain 1st gear at 2k rpm.

Also a bit off topic but the originaly poster stated trying to save fuel. I've tried both styles of driving in my 80 mile commute. Fuel consumption didn't change whether I keep the engine speed under 3k, or just be lazy and not shift until 6k or so.

You're fortunate not to get the bog...no matter how slowly I ease off the gas, that last second where I actually come off it (even at say 6mph or so) I do get a double lurch/bog.

My engine only has 550 miles on it so maybe it's a break-in thing.

I can't help it (unless I'm in snow) I love to shift at between 5k-9k. Anything under that and I feel like an old man. LOL to the old men out there. As an FYI here are some driving tips for MT:

1) When starting on an incline where the car is tending to roll backwards use the e-brake to hold the car in place until you feel the clutch begin to grab and then slowly ease off the e-brake and it will keep the car for rolling downhill into someone else. Practice this maneuver and you will see what I mean.

2) When starting on a slippery surface (ice and snow) torque is your enemy. Try starting out in 2nd gear, you get less torque and it is relatively easy to keep the car from stalling. Also keep the rpms down.

3) You can drive relatively slow in any gear to save gas. But if you are in 6th gear going 55 mph and you decide that you want to pass someone shift down to 4th or 5th to keep from bogging the engine.

I was going to add a whole list of weapon types allowed to be used from your car depending on the day of the week and transmission type here as my 4th informational but I decided against it since I will undoubtedly offend some readers...

A MOST helpful thread!!! And timely (for me). Just yesterday I asked a seasoned MT veteran at work how you stop the bogging (didn't know the term at the time) at low speeds in touch-n-go traffic. He said to feather the clutch or to shift into 3rd where I'm normally in 2nd. Having no precise concept of what feathering the clutch is, I assuming it's easing in and out of gear, I've tried shifting up to 3rd and it's maybe somewhat better but not perfect by any means. This is my first MT and I've had about six weeks with it. I've learned to "eye the traffic" as described herein. I'm working on the bog-thing and look forward to coasting in first gas-free.

Here's an off-topic question (well off the original topic) but in keeping with the theme of newies needing MT advice... Does it hurt anything to skip a gear? I find myself going 25 or so in 2nd (I'm not sure but reasonably fast for second) and spending all of 3 seconds in 3rd and then moving to 4th. Well over the past two weeks or so, in those semi-hi-rev 2nd gear situations, I've just been sliding over from 2nd to 4th. It FEELS like it's an okay thing to do. It's a smooth shift and the car doesn't choke down or otherwise complain. I also will skip 5th when I'm moving from 4th to 6th at 70 mph. Am I screwing anything up by doing this?

Thanks for the thread and the teaching. It has been a huge help and special thanks to vampyre for having the cojones to ask the question in the first place!!!

I'm no Einstein when it comes to car mechanics but IMO it does no harm. I do recall one thread I read here where someone said it is harmful...I don't know why it would though. I commonly skip 5th when getting on freeways. If it doesn't go GRIIIIIIND when you shift, should be ok :p

This thread says it's ok.
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...skipping+gears

As long as the rpms and speed is up skipping gears won't hurt the engine or tranny. However, and maybe this is just a habit with me, I like shifting and you will get more torque and hp out of the car if you go in sequence while shifting.

I think most of us skip the gears when we've already reached our cruising speed in a lower gear. We get leadfootitis going up through the lower gears and before you know it you're at cruising speed and you've only hit 4th gear :p

Ok, FWIW, if you are on a hill going up and let the clutch catch with no gas, or much worse hold yourself on an incline with the clutch it will wear on your clutch and tranny. I know a guy, all he did was take off from 2nd gear, or hold himself on hills with the clutch instead of the brake, he went through about 4 clutches and 2 trannys.

I've been taught to stay off the clutch as much as possible. So that means while waiting at light, I'm in neutral with clutch disengaged. My Miata ran 80,000 miles before I got a new clutch. The transmission was still in fine shape at 170,000 miles when I sold it.

Man I am going through that EXACT same thing I just started skipping gears two days ago! Using the same pattern as you described....2nd to 4th and 4th to 6th ....

And as far as the thread you're welcome it seems to be really helping a few of us! Just more proof that everyone here has a great attitude and unless you're whining about Gas Mileage or Flooding you can ask just about anything. :)

Started reading this thread just before going out for some errands so then I was paying attention to what was going on. I've got over 35 years w/MT on cars, trucks and bikes, so it's mostly a feel thing for me.

The gas pedal is very softly sprung on the 8. Combine that with the free revving nature of the 8 and you have a setup that is easy to drive even for a beginner, but a little challenging to get just right.

When I first started to drive, I was taught to pretend that there was an egg between your foot and the gas pedal. This obviously isn't how you do things when you want to drive agressively, but works especially well in traffic.

Earlier in the thread folks were asking about going slow in bumper to bumper stuff. Did a little experimenting. Not only can you creep along at 3-4 mph in first, you can also creep along at 9-10 mph in second. It's all a matter of how sensitive you are to the gas pedal. If you grew up with automatics, it might take a while, but the gentler you work the gas, the easier it is to move the 8 in traffic.

A couple of other pointers for the folks new to MT. Leave the stereo off until you're on the highway. Driving an MT, especially learning an MT, requires connection to the vehicle. Feeling and hearing what the car is doing are equally important. When you really pay attention to what the car is doing, you will be able to pull away from a dead stop without giving any gas at all. Not that you want to do that all the time, but it will prove to you that the 8 has a lot more torque than you thought.

One of the earlier posters mentioned that he didn't "pre-rev" before releasing the clutch. That's my style too, and I have never replaced a clutch with less than 100k mi. on it.

Not Pre-revving is going to take some serious stones for me to do but I am really going to try to learn to do it that way, before my over-revving bad habit gets out of control.

If I stall, I stall, but getting that friction point down pat is the key for me.

*gulp* wish me luck!

The car goes 5 in first with no gas. I've never driven another stick that does that. That's nice.

BTW I've been waiting to apply gas until Friction point going into 1st the past day and a half. It's been a little touchy and I've felt close to stalling, but NO stalling so far and it's been rewarding to discipline myself to doing it right.

Thanks again to all who contributed to this thread.

good job...if you feel yourself starting to stall, press the clutch in a little bit and begin to balance gas/clutch again...

as soon as i got a small hang of stickshift, i drove right into traffic and forced myself to get consistent (at the expense of the drivers behind me when i stalled)

Warning - Old Thread Alert
 

Ahhhhh, technique. How did I get to be this old still pre-rev-ing on the level city streets. :nono: Somehow I've managed to never need to replace a clutch so perhasp I'm not terribly hard on them anyway. Perhaps this is my solution to the perfect-city-launch (no bog, no tire squeal).

Why on EARTH did you resurrect this antique?

Why wouldn't I? ;)

You prefer numerous inane new threads about the same ol' topics? *cough* gas mileage *cough*. :wallbash:

Actually, shifting technique had been on my mind for a while - so I searched.... and found an existing thread.... imagine my surprise. :rollingla

I had a nerve racking moment yesterday.... In downtown Toronto.. Trying to go into an underground parking lot. Went down this ramp that I swear was almost 45 degrees. The door is on a motion sensor so I slowly approched the door to trigger it to open. As I got closer I noticed the sign that said closed on weekends.

Now I am stuck about 3 feet from this door on the biggest downward incline ever!!... oh... did I mention it was raining!! NO JOKE

I've only had my car 6 months but have been driving MT for years. I've never been so nervous. Used the Ebrake Technique...... stalled the first time and rolled foward about a foot... AHHH!!!

Tried a second time and got the tires spining... and I wasn't stoping this time, I skidded up the hill.. correcting as I went. Made it safe to the top and was so releavied.

I've was so worried for my precious 8.... but we made it out alive! :-)

Jsuzuki had the best reply so far, even though he didn't use the magic words . . .

Double-clutch ! ! !

That's right -- practicioners of this apparently-lost art can enjoy the sensation of their transmissions slipping into a lower gear with only a slight nudge, all with zero wear on synchros and clutches (maybe a tiny bit of extra wear on the clutch linkage, admittedly).

This has been discussed to DEATH ! ! !

But man is it awesome in al manner of driving situations, like when you're down to 8 to 12 MPH coasting up to a red light, which then graciously turns green.

coasting in first gear was how i learned how to drive a stick. i would start on a flat plain and use the clutch to start the car and slowly coast in first with no gas and then eventually added gas to go. this taught me about clutch engagement at first.


now, starting on a hill was a different story, i would brake, let the clutch out slowly until you feel it start to grab and the rpm dip down, then i'll apply the gas and go. usually this doesnt over rev the car as much and its easier on the clutch i think.

^^^^^
In tough uphill or downhill starting situations like the one described by TDG, I am not shy about using the handbrake.

I liked the comment Beachdog made about turning off the radio to connect with the car. Back when I started driving, didn't have a radio. True words. My advice, just go out and try everything and you will get the hang of it pretty quickly. Only advice, don't ride the clutch. Another way to ride the clutch other than keeping yourself on a hill with it is just resting your foot on the clutch, even only slightly, will wear the clutch prematurely. I have never ridden the clutch and never had to replace a clutch. Bad thing about a clutch is stop and go driving in traffic. No real good thing about it, alot of clutching just the same. No matter how smooth I try to be in first, I still get the jerks once in awhile, in that case I sometimes just get some speed, clutch, put it into neutral, declutch, and coast. If I coast I usually do not hold the clutch in. I put it into neutral and take my foot off the clutch. Double clutching inbetween shifts is great for the syncros but I rarely do it; although, I rode with a guy who took a VW bus through its paces by double clutching and I was impressed.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but is this whole lurching/jerking/kangarooing thing still happening? Reason I ask is because this is a drive-by-wire car, and I experience this problem, but I've driven other DBW cars and they all remain smooth given the same slow moving circumstances. I'd have thought Mazda would have released a PCM/ECU update...or have they already and that I'm not aware of it?

Cheers,
Jon

yeah this car dont need gas, you can run it on your imagination

i want to know...

why is bogging down the engine bad?

is it like wheel hop while drag racing? the stuttering is bad for the drive train?

bogging down uses more fuel and obviously doesn't give the power you need.