Enzolor

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum and also to rotary technology, so please forgive me for the "newbieness" of this question if it has already been answered to death.

I recently signed a sales agreement for an RX-8 GT (delivery on Friday), and am now having a few second thoughts about the purchase. My particular concern is with the Rotary Engine life (or lack of).... reading up on a few websites, it's been said that Rotary engines usually last 70k-100k before requiring a complete overhaul/rebuild. Something about Apex seals having a tendancy of breaking resulting in power loss in the engine. In my panic, I decided to do some internet browsing and of course have come across the millions of mazda mechanics offering engine rebuilds at bargain prices of $3000 - $4600 USD. YIKES!

Is this true? Has Mazda publicly addressed this issue or made an effort in extending engine life? Has anyone received any details?

Residing in Canada, the car comes with a 3 year warranty, and it's disconcerting to think that I may face a hefty repair costs on the engine come 4-5 years down the road. Anyone have experiences with an older RX-7 engine?

I'd very much appreciate any of your suggestions or thoughts in this matter.

sferrett

There are several topics on this subject already - do a search for rebuild or engine life and you should find some.

The short answer is that a naturally aspirated rotary engine should not expect a shorter life that a piston engine. I just sold my FC with 140k miles on the original engine and still going strong. I have heard of many folks that have over 200k miles on their 2nd-gen cars. The turbocharged rotaries suffered a worse reputation mainly from people modifying them and blowing them up, but this is not something which should be generalized to rotary engines overall.

Simon

G8rboy

Don't worry- rotary engines are very reliable and long living, as long as you do the same basic maintenance you would any other engine (routine oil changes, air filter, etc). Considering they have far fewer moving parts, you should expect less trouble with the Renesis than a piston engine, although nobody can guarantee anything on such a new model vehicle.

Longevity concerns that you mention are based on the third generation RX-7 that had turbo and cooling issues that contributed to their reputation. There are still many, many non-turbo RX-7's on the road with 150-200K miles or more that never had a rebuild.

rotarygod

Many of those concerns go all the way back to the early rotaries of the '60's and '70's. Back then seal technology wasn't what it is now and they did have longevity issues. My ex-girlfriends grandfather insisted that the rotary was an unreliable engine. This is only a few years back.

As stated above, the 3rd generation RX-7 had many issues. Most of them originated from a lousy cooling system. If you can't keep it cool, you can't keep it for long.

The nonturbo rotaries have generally lasted a long time. My 2nd gen went to 145,000 before I pulled the engine out for a new one. I didn't need it. I just wanted to go faster. My best friend has had 2 RX-7's go over 200,000 miles on the original engine with no problems. Take good care of them and they'll last. It's no different than anything else.

opchee

In English Please??

what's an FC? is there an FA? FB? FD?

and what's a 2nd gen? is there a 1st gen? 3rd gen? 4th gen?

Hou-TX-RX-8

My dates may be off a bit.
1st Gen 79 - 85
2nd Gen 86-92
3rd Gen 93-95 FD
4th Gen 2004 -

GiN

The SA22C (or some people call it the FB or the FA, which I think is a misnomer but what do I know) is the 1st generation RX-7, made between 1978 and 1985. Those came with carbeurated, non-turbo 1.2L rotary engines and later had fuel-injected models and 1.3L models and some ultra-rare turbocharged models.

The FC3S is the 2nd generation RX-7 which was made between 1986 and 1991. Those were equipped with naturally-aspirated 1.3L and turbocharged 1.3L rotary engines, as well as a convertible.

The FD3S is the 3rd generation RX-7 which was produced between 1992 and 2002 (the US only sold 1993 through 1995) and came with 1.3L twin-sequential-turbocharged rotaries.

I don't know if there's any rhyme reason or logic in the jumble of letters that make up the chassis designations for these cars.

As for reliability, my turbo FC had its first engine transplant at 110,000 miles when it was still a baby at 12 years old. I don't know whether it was the 100º summer weather, leaking oil, or leaking coolant that made it bust a water jacket.

But it ran absolutely strong right up to the second the exhaust started shooting out white steam.

tblazer

Just to clarify a bit further, the SA, FC, etc. "chassis" designations are also the first characters of the VIN # -- you know, that unique # for every car that is stamped on many parts and visible on the dashboard when looking through the driver's side window from the outside.

Anyway, on longevity, I had a '79 RX-7 that lasted 100k, then it needed a rebuild. Since that engine technology is 25 years old, I would think Mazda has done a thing or two to improve the design since. My opinion - if you take care of it you will not have any more in the way of issues than you would have with a piston engine. In fact, there are significantly fewer parts in a rotary, thus less to go wrong.

Spin9k

I'll point you here https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=25276 for some interesting opinions/experiences on engine use and life.

MadRonin

I bought my FC (88 GL - no turbo) with 82,000 miles on it. I kept it for four years. When I sold it, it had 184,000 miles on it. In four years the only things I had to replace were the exhaust system ($1000), rotors ($200), and a radiator hose ($40). Other than that, the car ran great, and that's considering that I knew nothing about rotaries when I bought the car, and abused the hell out of it for the first year.

I loved my FC, and I love my new 8. You will love your 8 too. Just give it a chance.

Lawerence

VIN Info (USA):

J = Japanese Manufacturer
M = Mazda
1 = Passenger Car
F = RX-7
C = 2nd Generation RX-7
3 = North American Export Version
3 = Coupe, 5 = Convertible
1 = NA, 2 = TurboII
? = Various Check Digit
H = Model Year 1987 (I = Not Used, J = 88, K = 89, L = 90, M = 91, N = 92)
0 = Hiroshima Factory Code
?????? = 6-Digit Serial Number

Senseny

As stated by others a normally aspirated rotary engine should last as long as you would normally expect any piston engine (probably with less issues). The reputation for breaking apex seals comes from the very early Rx's (2, 3, Cosmos--whatever they were calling them) and the third generation 7's. The third gen suffers from a bad reputation that is deserved in some respects and unwarranted in others. First off not all third gens that blew up were the fault of the owners, they had a very high incidence of lemons and there are issues that needed to be corrected as soon as a good owner got their hands on one (precat exchange for downpipe, ast removal or upgrade, vac and boost lines changed to silicone). Not to mention, poor Mazda support for their techs. Not enough mechanics understood the car and its complex turbo control system, so cheap issues would be fixed with new turbos and new engines. Of course, many were blown up by people incorrectly modding the car. The third gen did not help with the rotaries reputation here in the states, but properly modded even that engine (13B-REW) can last longer than most people expect. Also the prices you saw for rebuilds or remans (3,000 to 4,000 for the 13B-REW) are not that bad when you consider that the FD outperforms many exotics, check the prices to maintain some of the engines in cars like the Porsche 930, Ferrari's, 12 cylinder jags, benz and BMW. FD owners have to consider the engine as a consumable product, but in no way do any of us owners of the Rx8 expect that out of the Renesis. We all expect a long, faithful life from our motors because of the past good reliability we have seen from NA rotaries.

Smoker

Hi there, I had the exact same type of concern as you have now about a year and a half ago. But after doing some research into some real data and talking to owners of the older Rotary cars, I'm now very confident that this new Rotary will for sure last longer than most piston engines out there. Here a thread from a while back with some really good info:

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ry+reliability

NAVILESRX8

iTrader: (1)

I really haven't heard of a broke apex seal on the renesis yet...some side seal problems, and coolant seals, but no apex seal problems....

Enzolor

I appreciate all the excellent feedback. My confidence in this car has jumped a few notches after reading the responses, and will no doubt skyrocket when I actually own and drive it.

Thanks again!

Jercs02

The rotary engine has a much better length of life if it isn't suped to the nuts, but if you do that to any car it will do the same.
The reason why is because it has a about a hundred less moving parts, and is mostly stationary

Zedcaster

I was a happy owner of a 1st Generation RX-7 (1983) that I owned until last month (Mar 04). It had over 150,000 mi on the original engine, never rebuilt. Never burned more than the normal amount of oil, never leaked oil.

Only sold it due to the rust...

Had to buy an 8 to make up for the loss....(sigh)...

My biggest tip to new rotary owners...don't spend big bucks on fancy oils, just use decent everyday oil and change it, often....Look at your dipstick, don't let the oil get dirty.

Also keep in mind that there is lots of aluminum in a rotary and there are relatively thin flat plates at the end of each rotor housing. Neither likes too much heat.

This means keep your engine cool. Overheating a rotary can kill it...check your coolant...keep it topped up...

Do these two simple things and your rotary will last a long time.

rx8miami

Renisis longevity in question? C'mon , I think it's the last non-turbo engine you should be worried about. Make your purchase! You will be happy for a long time.

grogiefrog

I sold my beloved '84 GSL-SE with 175k in 1999. She's sitting in a friends garage waiting to be restored. Now she has 185k. Still starts up, but is starting to smoke. Take care of a rotary and it will last a long time.

RenoIV

I agree with Zedcaster .... change the oil on a regular basis ... used Castrol in my FC every 3-3.5k miles ... coming up on 150k ... plan to do the same with the 8.

boothguy

I have just over 300,000 miles in Mazda rotaries with nothing more than routine service. Most serious engine-related issue was replacing the rear main oil seal on my '94 (FD, 3gen) that failed due to the high heat these motors generate. My '84 (FC, 2gen) has 204,000 miles on the clock and there are 94,000 on my '94. My 8 has 3,500. And I still own all these cars.

You can kill any engine ever produced with hard use and careless maintenance. But a rotary will give back at least equivalent longevity if you maintain it correctly. Nothing special, just keep it lubricated with clean oil and keep coolant in the system.

m477

^^^ Use it

Enzolor

So really the moral is keep it well maintained.

But doesn't that say something about longevity.. if you HAVE to maintain it? Many piston engined cars hardly require any maintenance and have zero problems.

My Acura EL (bad exampled?) get's an oil change maybe once every year... 180k and going strong.

Don't get me wrong, I love the RX-8. Just worried that she won't be so reliable in the long run.

Ivan Medellin

I've only had my 04 rx8 for about a month and a half. I use it as a daily driver and put just under 2,400 miles on it already. But I've noticed a struggle with a hot start. Normally right after pumping gas. Soooo I just don't turn it off anymore while doing so. I've read a lot and it seems I'm loosing compression because of the worn apex seals. I don't race it. It's all stock except for a k&n air filter place in. (Not the cold intake version) I'm worried I'll have to pay almost as much as the car was worth for a new engine or rebuild
Any help

Loki

iTrader: (1)

Hot start is indicative of low compression yes. Usually this forum recommends having the engine's compression tested before purchase, so you know the condition of the car you're buying. May as well go and have that done now.

There are other reasons for starting issues, like failing ignition components (which is what causes most engine failures in the first place).

However, resurrecting a thread where there last post is from 2004 is not an effective way to get help. Start your own thread in the New Members forum and folks will help you triage the problem from there.
Important info to add is the history of the car: previous replacements of the engine, ignition coils, catalytic converter, car mileage.

But yes, you might be in for a new engine.