DonG35Miata

Right now I have an Infiniti G35 and a 1997 Miata. I've thought of trading in the Miata on a new sports car, but I have come to realize I am attached to it like a pet and it isn't going anywhere. The G35 obviously is not going anywhere either, I just got it and I do love it. I work four jobs (one full-time, three freelance) so I can afford one more car, as long as it is around $30,000... I feel the work outside my job is to let me enjoy some of life's pleasures for the short time we are here on Earth! I like the RX-8, and I owned a 1981 RX-7 so I am a rotary fan, but somehow I find myself more drawn to the 350Z. I guess because it is more of a 2 seat/GT... I don't want or need a back seat. I have the Infiniti for that. The RX-8 styling is also, rather... distinctive, not like anything else. I like it, but I don't love it and it doesn't get me excited. I guess I wish the car was in more of an RX-7 vein than the way they are going with it.

Conversely, I know the RX-8 will outhandle the 350Z, and I find the RX-8 interior FAR more appealing than that of the Nissan. I guess the things holding me back from the RX-8 are the styling and back seat. Not that I don't like it, it's not the sleek 2 seat GT/coupe I envision as my third (and final) vehicle, a cheap version of a Ferrari 360. Obviously, I am one person and the RX-8 will not live or die whether or not I buy one. If it was a roadster a bit bigger than the Miata, with the Renesis and similar lines to the RX-8, THAT would be my car. Or, styled as a modern GT like the 350Z is. I may still get the RX-8, and in fact am first on the list at my Mazda dealer. (It's a great family-owned place, and we know each other well. I trust them, another reason to buy the RX-8 instead of the 350Z.) Other points in the 350Z's favor are an engine that is extremely well proven, something that can't be said of the Renesis just yet, and it's a bit of a wild card after the 3rd gen RX-7 showed us how badly Mazda can screw up. Resale on the Z could be much better as well, especially if the RX-8 turns out to be a dud or the engine has problems.

This is not meant to be an RX-8 vs. Z thread, or flame bait... I do LIKE the car, just don't LOVE it. Is there anyone else out there feeling the same way I am? Anything about the car holding you back, be it styling, the back seat, extra doors, unproven engine, etc?

Sputnik

Don't forget, you've probably seen the 350Z live already, but few have seen the RX8. And even then, only a couple people on their way to a bathroom saw the production version.

I'd wait until you got an up close look before making your decision (whichever it might turn out to be).

---jps

P.S. If I ever sound mean to you in the future, it is probably because I'm jealous that you can juggle three cars like that, doggone it!

DonG35Miata

Juggle is the right word... right now I have a single car garage with a driveway a single car wide. Not bad for the G35 and the Miata, but a pain sometimes, and a super pain if I do add a third come springtime. I just rented a two car garage to store my Miata in the winter... I may just rent it year-round.

irresistibo

Hey, if you already got a g35 then whats the point of getting a 2 door version of the same car? I donno, just doesnt make too much sense unless you really love your g35. Wait until the RX-8 comes out before you make your final decision. hey, its all up to you bro, you work hard for your money, dont let anyone tell you what to do with it.

DonG35Miata

I think the 350Z is quite different from the G35 sedan. (In the case of the coupe, I 100% agree with you.) The wheelbase is shorter, it has more power, is lighter (though not by much), is two seats and has a six speed. It should provide an altogether different driving experience. I'll be test driving one in a week or so... I'll let you know how it goes.

I do plan on checking out the RX-8 before I sign those loan papers. IF I do so... I have also considered the option of "You already have two nice cars that you really enjoy driving... be happy with what you have!" But I seem to be happiest and most motivated when I have a goal to strive for, and besides my student loans will all be totally paid off in December, and they are almost exactly the same amount as the payment on a 350Z or RX-8... I can always change my mind and sit on my down payment money.

This is all related to the thread, and I like to hear what you guys think because it will all help me make a good decision. What led me to post though is I wonder if anyone else has the same feelings about the RX-8 being the right direction, if perhaps they would have been better served by a two-door, two seat GT.

Rich

Don, if you read my thoughts in previous posts, I've had thoughts that were nearly identical to yours. I've even got a Miata as well. I'm not all that excited about the styling, but I'll wait until I see one in person to make that decision. I *love* the rotary, and I'm not the least concerned about it being "unproven"; that's the only thing that I disagree with you on. There are dozens of posts on why the RENESIS ought to have significantly better reliability than a standard piston engine and why comparisons with the FD in terms of the engine are not appropriate.
The biggest thing for me is that I too do not want a back seat. That's what my sedan is for, and I can't imagine ever needing 2 cars that seat more than 2 people. The extra weight and size of the back seats is the biggest problem I have with the car, and the main reason I'm going to do my best to wait for the 4th gen RX-7.

However, I think this car is absolutely dead-on in terms of what Mazda as a company needs. Right now the closest thing they have to a sports car is the Miata, and as much as I love it (best car I've owned), it's just not a real sports car. Mazda's trying to make/keep their image as that of a manufacturer that puts a bit of "sports car soul" into each car, yet it doesn't have a sports car! So Mazda needs a sports car, but the 2-seater market is extremely fickle. There are probably more than 10 people with the money and who want a sports car for every one who can deal with the lack of practicality. In other words, people that don't need and don't want just 2 seats are vastly outnumbered by those who must have at least 4 seats that adults can use. If Mazda makes this (as they claim is their goal) a true no-compromises sports car that happens to have enough room for 4 adults, it will be the first of its kind. That's why most of us here believe that the G35, BMWs, and other sedans are not in the same class as this car.

One other thing, if you read all of the posts on this board, there are lots of people that say things like, "I wanted a Miata/350Z/S2000/Porche etc., but it needs to be my daily driver and seat more than 2 people. This is the perfect car for me." You and I are outnumbered here and, I hope, in the marketplace as well. I think Mazda has hit on the perfect formula for this car, it's just not the right car for me. I'm cheering as hard as anyone for its success so they bring back a rotary 2-seater. That's what I'll buy, but I'll have the RX-8 to thank for making it possible. I think that's a great strategy, and one that will be extremely successful if the public can deal with a totally new car category. That's the only thing that I can see that would cause the RX-8 to be a failure, a lack of understanding of what this car really is about.

One other thing, you may want to try to find some threads on 350Z vs. RX-8 (just search on 350Z). I very strongly suspect that the 350Z isn't going to come close to the RX-8 in terms of handling. With all the extra weight the Z has to lug around as well as the front weight bias and the reputations of Nissan vs. Mazda in terms of handling, I'd be shocked if the 350Z was nearly as much fun to drive as the RX-8. But you can probably see my bias. If Mazda can get the Protege5 to outhandle everything in its class, and you know about the Miata's handling prowess, the RX-8 should be a star on the autocross course and race track.

DonG35Miata

Rich, I did read your posts and I replied to them as well. What surprises me is you don't think the Miata is a sports car. It's not high-performance, but it DOES have the soul of a sports car IMHO. It's light, responsive, you can drop the top, two seats, and most of all, a ball to drive. It has that right feel. I almost traded my Miata in on a Boxster two years ago. One thing that scared me away was the reliability aspect... the Boxster is probably worse than the BMWs in this regard, and in 1999 they had a penchant for coughing up engines due to faulty liners in the #3 cylinder that would let loose and destroy the innards of the engine. (At the "The Boxsters have Landed" event out west, there were 80 Boxsters in attendance... two engines failed there, on that one weekend! Not to mention the other problems that plague the car) The final deciding factor for me, though, was that though the Boxster was faster and had higher limits, IMHO it wasn't any more fun to drive than the Miata. I think I was more enamored with owning a Porsche than the way it drove.

I have a 1997 with Toyo T1-S tires... don't know what model year you have, but I never thought the M2 felt as sporty as the M1. I drove both before buying (they had two brand-new 1997s and two1999s on the lot when I bought in April 1998.) The steering on the M2 felt overboosted.

Like you, I hope the RX-8 is a big hit, and I do think going in that it will handle better than the 350Z. I would not write off the Nissan's handling ability so quickly, though. The FM platform was developed by Nissan's head Formula One engineer and you can tell when you drive it. When I first drove the G35, I accelerated up a (steep) hill and bent it into a corner, all I could think was "Holy cow... this is a big four door?"

Rich

The definition of a sports car varies from person to person. We've already had a long thread about that here, and I don't want to rehash it and I don't want to hijack your thread either. I'll limit my off-topic reponse to 2 brief points. First, I spent a lot of time going back and forth between the NA and NB Miatas. I drove about 5 NAs and 10 NBs. In the end, I decided on the NB because of looks, refinement of the overall car, and 0% financing. It's been said that the NB is the better car, but the NA is the better Miata. I won't disagree with that, and I would love to have an NA, but since my Miata is a daily driver 365 days of the year, I wanted the better car at the expense of a bit of "miataness".
As for why I don't think the Miata is a sports car, it's simply power. A sports car should be able to effortlessly beat a minivan or SUV off the line. The Miata can't. If you work the clutch and redline it, you can take every stock minivan and most SUVs. It's pretty embarassing to have this little car screaming and juuuuust pulling away from the Ford Windstar. I'd say any car that wants to be considered a true sports car these days has to beat 6.5 seconds to 60, roughly. The Miata has everything else in spades: oneness with the vehicle, handling limits, responsiveness, agility, and balance are its strengths, and the reason I bought it. I don't drag race or street race, so the lack of power doesn't bother me. However, it does preclude it from being a true sportscar in my mind.

Back on topic, I don't mean to denigrate the handling prowess of any Nissan. My point was simply that I don't think that the 350Z will match the RX-8. It's a bit like comparing 2 supermodels and saying that you think one is more attractive. That doesn't mean the other is ugly. The reports that I've heard on the Z is is that its a very good car, and handles well, but there are quite a few reports of plowing and understeer, as well as a feeling of weight. I'd rather have my Miatas handling and lack of power than a car with a great engine that's heavy and is only 95% as good at handling.

DonG35Miata

First of all, you aren't hijacking the thread. These things tend to wander. I do hope others reply re: Mazda's direction with the
RX-8. I'm sure they are working on a marketing campaign so people know what the car is all about, a true sports car that happens to have four doors and four seats. Let's hope it hit's home with the public.

You have a great point about the weight. I drove a 1990 300ZX and did not care for it... too heavy. Same for the Boxster... felt heavy after driving a Miata for two years. It will be interesting to see how the 350Z feels, and as I said I'll report back to all of you. We don't even know what the RX-8 will weigh yet, thought it will certainly be lighter than the 350Z. I just hope they don't do it at the expense of durability like they did with the 3rd gen RX-7. I'm sure they learned their lesson by now!

DonG35Miata

By the way, Rich... given your previous posts regarding your preference for two doors and two seats... does this mean that you will likely pass on the RX-8 and wait for a two seater? Perhaps Mazda is slightly off the mark then... but we will see how many of the "the car is perfect for me, I need a real back seat" people step up in our place. Hopefully, many!

said7

If i was you id wait for the 8 or possibly the new 7. Seems like those two cars would be fine for a few years. You could save up and get the rx7 when its release.

I wouldnt get the Z just because it is relatively similar to the G35.

DonG35Miata

My ideal car would be something I'd trade the Miata in for... a "rotary roadster", in between the Miata and Boxster in size, with a 250-280hp Renesis, and the same interior as the RX-8 but in a two seat version. I've heard rumors that something like this may actually be in the works. Anyone else know anything?

Hercules

Depending on the sales of the 8 and the 6, expect news for the 2005 model year.

Pork Chop

I think the RX-8 is a good move for Mazda. A bit risky, since it's such a novel concept, but I think it should do well. As long as they don't go crazy with the pricing, it should be ok.

A few comments:

-regarding resale value of the new Z, I think it wont be too high. They're making a lot of these (~30000 for US this year). With production numbers like that, the car is going to be relatively easy to get at near-invoice prices within a year or so. That would hurt resale in the long run.

-what's holding me back from the RX-8? Mostly the concerns that were already mentioned, especially the "unproven" engine. I'm still fairly confident that Mazda will go out of their way to make sure that this motor is not problematic like the previous rotary.

The other thing that bugs me is the weight. There have been various tidbits released here and there, from "less than 3000 lbs" to "lighter than the previous model". From what was posted in another thread about the weights of the RX-7, this ranges from 2800-2950 lb. I'm hoping that the RX-8 will weigh in at the lower end of that range. Common sense tells me that it's probably going to be in the higher end.

Rich

Pork Chop-
I share your concern about the weight, but there are limits to what can be done within a given budget. If it does come out just barely under 3000 lbs., I think it will still be the lightest in its "class", whatever that is. The only car that it could compare to that's lighter is the RSX Type-S, which weighs 2766, according to Edmunds. I don't know if you've sat in the back seat of an RSX, but trust me, it's tight! I expect the RX-8 to have a larger back seat.
So I agree with you, but I have a feeling that they're going to do as much as possible to reduce the weight. Mazda has renewed their weight saving efforts for the next generation Miata, and it sounds to me like it's a philosophy that the rest of the company shares as well.

DonG, I posted a lot of thoughts over on this thread. I think I'm going to wait for the 7 unless the RX-8 is a great car that fails to sell. If it fails to sell because it sucks, I'll obviously pass. If it sells lots and is great, I'll wait for the 7. Like I said in the thread I linked to above, I will own an RX-7 if a 4th gen comes back to the U.S. I don't care if it costs 50k, I will own one, unless Mazda does something really screwy. I'd own a 3rd gen if I thought I could find a reliable one. My dream would be to replace my 626 with an RX-8 and my Miata with an RX-7, but that's at least 4 years down the road, if not longer. I think you and I want the same car, but I don't like convertibles. I want a rotary Miata that's a coupe, not a convertible with a hardtop.

SPDFRK

Rich and Don "The Rx-8 is perfect for me" I drive a 328i right now and have been ready to pull the trigger on a S2000 or a used vette a number of times now but the only thing holding me back is the lack of seats, I'm only 23 have no wife or family planned for many years at the least but still feel the need to be able to carry more than 1 person at a time. I would love to be able to afford two cars but the insurance and registration costs are what kills me. I hate paying for insurance!! If I could have a policy that covered only the car I was driving (since I can only drive one at time) then I may be able to justify the costs but until that happens (which I'm guessing is close to never) I'm stuck compromising. But that is what makes the 8 the car for me, least amount of compromise.

DonG35Miata

Well, I am 35 and my insurance is not that bad. I pay $1400 total per year for full coverage on the G35 and the Miata. I bet for someone under 25 driving a 328i, it's pretty close to that, depending on where you live. That has a lot to do with it.

Pork Chop

Rich,

I vaguely recall sitting in the backseat of an RSX and it was very snug! About on par with my Prelude. The bigger rear seat on the RX-8 is a bonus, but the rear seats aren't a major concern to me.

Even at the 2900 range, the RX-8 is still relatively light (lighter than the 350Z @3200, G35C @3400 and IS300/BMW 3). I'm just not sure if that's light enough for me.

High-strung motors and heavy cars don't make for a good match. My Prelude SH has similar torque numbers to the RX-8, but weighs a little more (3042lb). It's certainly not a fast car, but when it's up in the rpm's, it's fairly peppy. If the RX-8 is only a slight improvement from that, I'm not sure if I could justify getting one.

The S2000 is another torque-challenged car, but the combination of tight gearing and low weight makes up for that quite well. If the RX-8 is closer to that end of the weight range (2800 lb), then I'll be pretty happy.

DonG35Miata

Given the RX-8's torque, if you fill the three extra seats, it's going to feel pretty sluggish until you get it rolling. You'll definitely feel the extra weight.

rxtreme

iTrader: (1)

Even with the same torque, the Prelude only has, what, 195HP. And as you mentioned, it's still heavier. Where as the RX-8 will have 250HP. The torque on the RX-8, however limited, is available at a fairly low RPM. Not to mention the availability of a 6 speed to keep the motor in its peak longer. I'm not trying to start another "torque means nothing" thread but I think if the weight is anywhere under 3000 lbs the straight line performance should be close to that of an S2000 at least (if not better).

boowana

"Right now the closest thing they have to a sports car is the Miata, and as much as I love it (best car I've owned), it's just not a real sports car."

Rich. I can't belive you drive a Miata and said what you said. Maybe you should come for a ride with me at 10/10ths and see if I can change your mind.

Have you evr wished you had "Depends" on when going through a high speed corner at the limit? I don't thinks so.
Alternately, you could read just about every car magazine that's written articles about the miata over the last 12 years!

The Miata is the ultimate sports car and the best damn fun you can have per dollar. I am only hoping that the RX-8, takes it up ANOTHER NOTCH!:D :D :D

Quick_lude

He's got the SH model which is about 80lbs heavier than stock like mine. About 2970lbs/200hp. That said the 8 will be faster then any Prelude.. If it matches S2000 straight line performance numbers, about 14s in 1/4 mile I will very happy. Not to mention the handling. :D

Pork Chop

200hp to be exact. There's no doubt that the RX-8 will be faster than the Prelude, given that there is a 50 hp advantage. Honda VTEC motors, while somewhat deficient in torque, usually have flat torque curves. You do get a significant spike at VTEC, but it's fairly flat thoughout the rpm range. Given that the RX-8 will also have a similar flat torque curve, any excess weight will really hurt it's performance.

I agree that we should expect to see S2000-like performance if the car is under 3000 lb. I'm just hoping that it's a lot lighter than 3000 lb and not just barely lighter than 3000.

Rich

Ok, I don't want to get into this discussion, since it's purely a semantic argument, so I cry "uncle". if you want to call a car that can't get to 60 mph in better than 7.7 seconds (the best number I've seen from a stock Miata) a sports car, go ahead. I will agree, if we leave that portion out of it, the Miata meets (and far exceeds!) every requirement to be called a sports car. I have been in a Miata driven hard by a far better driver than myself, and I've had more "Depends" moments by myself than I'd care to admit. I love my car, and believe that I found the best 2-seat RWD performance car available anywhere close to that price. However, since it's even slower than my 626 in straight line acceleration, I just can't call it a sports car. Actually, it's the slowest car (0-60) that I've ever owned! Once it struggles up to speed, it's got all the moves, but without more power I just can't call it a sports car. I realize that puts me in the minority, but as fantastic a car as it is, it's just not a sports car in my mind. Like I said before, it has everything, but if it has to work to beat a minivan off the line, it's not a sportscar in my mind.

DonG35Miata

Something we all have to remember is how really blessed we are today by automobile performance. You aren't happy with a Miata with around 140hp that goes 0-60 in 7.7 seconds... remember what a hit the Porsche 944 was when it came out in 1982or 1983? It had 143 hp and Car and Driver got it 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. That was considered fast. The acclaimed 1984 RX-7 GSL-SE? All of 135hp, 0-60 in 7.2 seconds. Yet these were considered quite hot in their day. Even the Porsche 928S with the 5-speed hit 60 just a second or so faster than your Miata. It's not a slow car. Cars are just a lot faster these days. It's all relative.

Rich, you have a NEED for SPEED...