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Reliability of 1st year Rx8's?
Is anyone concerned about buying the first of an all-new car that using an all-new rotary engine?
Im not suggesting that mazda doesnt make good cars but you cant help having problems with an all-new design. I understand that it doesnt really matter to those of you who are only leasing since you would have most likely have moved on to a newest must-have toy in 3 years but those of us who practically marry our cars and keep them a long time would it be better to wait a year or at least 6 months? |
Isn't that what a warrenty is for? I would suggest also looking into an extended warrenty. In most cases if negotiated correctly, they at least pay for themselves...
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Re: Reliability of 1st year Rx8's?
Originally posted by johnsocal Is anyone concerned about buying the first of an all-new car that using an all-new rotary engine? Im not suggesting that mazda doesnt make good cars but you cant help having problems with an all-new design. I understand that it doesnt really matter to those of you who are only leasing since you would have most likely have moved on to a newest must-have toy in 3 years but those of us who practically marry our cars and keep them a long time would it be better to wait a year or at least 6 months? |
i've already gotten my tube of KY and have shoes with straps that i can grab onto in dire emergencies, so i'm prepared :eek:
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I think MAZDA has quite a good reputation of NOT doing like other (sadly also: German /Audi, BMW, even Mercedes) manufacturers do it: Banana products -- delivered green and riping at the customer.... :( I did own a VW Golf GTI 16V which was ever SO bad, switched to French and Japanese cars since then.
However, no manufacturer is really save from this, no matter how hard they test... |
I owned a 1989 Ford Probe and my wife a 1989 Mazda MX-6 - effectively both first year cars built in a joint Ford/Mazda partnership - and both were pretty reliable, certainly more reliable than other vehicles I've had the misfortune of owning, even when those cars were several years into their production runs.
I also don't remember any large streak of failures on Gen II RX-7s, and the cooling problems with Gen IIIs took four or five model years to fix... In short, there are always going to be glitches, but hopefully the Japanese production run will iron most of those out. :D |
All new car here except for transmission and rear axle. I expect there to be a few first year niggles. Probably similar to the new 6. I have the most confidence there will be no significant problems with the engine because Mazda knows this is the last shot for the Wankel and the memory of the poor recent record is still fresh. So we can eliminate powertrain related problems. That leaves body and interior as most likely problem areas. Surely there will be one or two rattles that will be eliminated by the 2005 model run.
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Sure, I'm a little nervous. I think Mazda has done some pretty extensive testing of the engine anyway, as the design dates back to the RX-01 of 1995, and has been tested and tweeked since. I just get the feeling, (maybe minor glitches aside) the car will be pretty trouble free. I hope I'm right.
However, I hope they haven't tried to ignore what they thought were minor issues during testing or early production. (if there were any) As an example, I use the U.S. model WRX. I don't think a car, especially when it had been sold in other markets for about a year should have so many stoopid issues like ECU, various sensor glitches, and a grabby clutch that is prone to juddering. I'm surprised none of the journalists picked up on these things. (until recently) |
Glad I'm leasin |
I think there are a lot of NA engined RX-7 owners here who are pretty confident that the new FE engine would be very reliable. Maybe they can give you some insight into this.
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Re: Reliability of 1st year Rx8's?
Originally posted by johnsocal Is anyone concerned about buying the first of an all-new car that using an all-new rotary engine? Im not suggesting that mazda doesnt make good cars but you cant help having problems with an all-new design. I understand that it doesnt really matter to those of you who are only leasing since you would have most likely have moved on to a newest must-have toy in 3 years but those of us who practically marry our cars and keep them a long time would it be better to wait a year or at least 6 months? As far as the chassis of the RX-8 goes, it has existed for four years, since the RX-Evolv's debut in 1999. In those four years, it has been tweaked and developed extensively. Again, Mazda knows it's business when it comes to chassis and handling. The transmission is built by the same company that supplies Mazda with Miata transmissions, Aisin. These transmissions are very well manufactured and typically heavily overengineered. The Miata transmission can take quite a pounding. There should not be any issues there either. Of course, this is all speculation, but Mazda's rotary engine has a good record in NA form, and one only has to look at all of the 1st Generation RX-7's and Miatas on the road today to see Mazda's build quality. |
not to rain on anyone's parade, but Mazda is one of the worst car companies in terms of reliability and customer satisfaction...it's right there on paper on various reports magazines like Consumer Reports as well as many newspaper publications...the RX-7 even had many many issues and Mazda's warranty department too it in the ass...
i'm really hoping the RX-8 is a completely different breed of Mazda since i just bought one...i don't want problems with it... EDIT: again, this is just stuff i've read from various sources...i've only owned a Mazda 626 in the past and it gave me no problems the entire 2 years i had it |
Re: Re: Reliability of 1st year Rx8's?
Originally posted by SA22C Calling the Renesis all-new design is a bit misleading. While the port placement and size is new, the shape of the rotor and its eccentricity has been used by Mazda for thirty years. Normally aspirated rotaries have been used without incident for 200,000 miles on a regular basis. That includes a lot of owners who take their car out to race every weekend. As far as the engine goes, there should not be any issues of reliability or longevity. so it's not all-new but i'm still gonna stow away that extra bit of cash just incase...and if it turns out i don't need it, gonna go have a good time in vegas =) |
Originally posted by BRx8 not to rain on anyone's parade, but Mazda is one of the worst car companies in terms of reliability and customer satisfaction...it's right there on paper on various reports magazines like Consumer Reports as well as many newspaper publications...the RX-7 even had many many issues and Mazda's warranty department too it in the ass... i'm really hoping the RX-8 is a completely different breed of Mazda since i just bought one...i don't want problems with it... EDIT: again, this is just stuff i've read from various sources...i've only owned a Mazda 626 in the past and it gave me no problems the entire 2 years i had it |
Not the best Customer Service! Reliability is good!
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http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2002049a.gif http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2002141a.gif
Below average, and right around average. Judging by JDP's data in the last few years, it seems that Mazda quality is actually on the rise. (No new models in 2002?) I have some doubts regarding all first year models, but especially with Mazda. (Look up info regarding 1st year Mazda, RX7, Miata, Millenia......) First year mean potential problems, which means you gotta deal with the dealership. Mazda dealership are near the buttom of the pile when it comes to customer service. With a rotary engine, it might be better to take your RX-8 to an independent rotary shop. Anyways, the cost of owning the first new toy on the block is that you have to deal with these issues. I'd recommend waiting for 2nd year model~ but who's got that kind of patience. :P |
Regarding the transmission, it's only built by the same company that makes them for the Miata's right, it's not the same tranny? :confused:
The 8 will produce a lot more hp/torque than a stock Miata ever did.. |
the company is aisin, but no clue the other question, i'm with you on expecting it to not be the exact same tranny.
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just cross fingers, and make sure you get the extended warranty on it. Also the car can be as reliable depending how u take care of it.
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Ok, hopefully I'm not going to get smacked by consumer reports for posting this. THIS is what I was referring to.
How automakers stack up for 2000 The average three-year-old car had 55 problems per 100 vehicles. Some makes did better, others worse. MAKE PROBLEMS per 100 vehicles Better than average Acura 21 Toyota 25 Lexus 25 Honda 32 Mazda 34 Subaru 36 Saab 37 Nissan 40 Mitsubishi 42 Lincoln 47 Buick 49 Hyundai 53 BMW 54 AVERAGE MODEL 55 Chrysler 56 Ford 56 Mercury 57 Plymouth 57 Dodge 59 Audi 64 Oldsmobile 67 Pontiac 68 Jeep 68 Chevrolet 69 Volvo 70 Saturn 70 GMC 72 Mercedes-Benz 73 Volkswagen 74 Cadillac 82 Worse than average Reliability is one of the most difficult aspects of a vehicle to evaluate, yet it’s one of the most important. Our annual survey of almost 3.5 million subscribers provides the most comprehensive reliability information available. The 2002 survey yielded responses on nearly 480,000 vehicles spanning eight model years--1995 to 2002. Owners told us about problems they had during the preceding 12 months in 14 areas, ranging from the electrical system to the engine, transmission, and more. In this report, you’ll find information that can be invaluable if you’re in the market for a car or if you simply want to see how your current car is likely to fare. FEWER PROBLEMS ALL AROUND Overall, the news is good. The newest cars in the survey, the 2002s, had fewer problems than the newest cars in the 2001 survey: 18 problems per 100 vehicles, down from 21. Similarly, cars that were two to eight years old had fewer problems than we’ve seen in previous surveys. As in the past, Japanese brands led the industry. Korea’s Hyundai was also among the best 2002 brands--a striking turnaround from its poor showing 10 years ago. We have enough data to report on 2000 to 2002 Hyundais. In this report, we focus our analysis on two model years: 2000 and 1998. These three- and five-year-old cars are more likely to have problems than new vehicles--and you’ll have to foot the bill if the warranty has expired. Knowing how such models are holding up is vital if you’re deciding whether to keep an older car or if you’re thinking of buying a used one. WHAT’S UP WITH 3-YEAR-OLDS On average, model-year 2000 cars had three times as many problems as the 2002 cars: 55 problems per 100 vehicles. By the time the average car approached three years old, problems that were apparent when the cars were new--such as those in the electrical system and power equipment, or queaks and rattles--were two or three times more common. Systems that were fine at the outset, such as brakes and cooling, started having some problems. The table above shows the average number of problems reported for 29 nameplates, or makes, of cars. (We include only those makes for which we have sufficient data on at least two models.) Most of the 10 best were Japanese, led by Acura. Some luxury-auto makers, such as Cadillac and Mercedes-Benz, were among the worst. Within those 29 makes, the best of 2000 were the Acura RL, Honda CR-V, Mazda MX-5 Miata, Lexus ES300, Honda Civic, and Toyota Camry--all with fewer than 18 problems per 100. Worst: the Chevrolet Corvette; Ford Focus; Mercedes-Benz M-Class; Volkswagen Golf, Jetta, and New Beetle; and Chevrolet Astro/GMC Safari--all with more than 90 problems per 100 vehicles. HOW 5-YEAR-OLDS DID The average 1998 model had 78 problems per 100 vehicles, about four times as many as the 2002s. Their Achilles’ heel: electrical problems, which were seen five times as often as in new cars. The best 1998 vehicles were the Honda CR-V, Toyota Tacoma (4WD), Acura RL, Lexus ES300, and Honda Odyssey/Isuzu Oasis, all with fewer than 25 problems per 100 vehicles. Worst: the Cadillac Catera, VW New Beetle, Mercedes-Benz M-Class, and Dodge/Plymouth Neon, all with more than 140 problems per 100. |
Originally posted by Elara Ok, hopefully I'm not going to get smacked by consumer reports for posting this. THIS is what I was referring to. |
Originally posted by lefuton why would you get smacked for it? |
looking back, I'm probably ok since that doesn't appear to be in the member's section. Most places don't take kindly to posting information you would normally have to pay for to get.
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No - CR is unhappy when anyone publishes anything published in their mags without permission, especially if it's used to promote any particular brand or model of anything.
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Well I build Fords and Mazdas on somedays and let me tell ya one thing. You should see all the people around the new models of vehicles running down the line. All of the FPS people look like monkeys swinging in and out of the vechicles. I help build the Tribute though. It runs down the same line as the escape. But honestly I dont care if you are number 1 or number 6000, it is the luck of the draw. Right now all the FPS people have torque wrenches in hand making sure everything is to spec! I will be curious to see how things change in the middle of July when we start running or trying to run 100% for the new F-150.
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One more thing Saturn at the top of the list? HMMMM They would have to have the same amount of Customer Service reps as cars sold. I bet they have spent a lot of money on advertising in CR.
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Wich list? In the cr thing I posted, they're near the bottom in terms of reliability...
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It's all down to expectations. Saturn may have a very high customer service rating (JD Power) because they are typically first-time buyer cars and just being treated like a human being in a car showroom could make those buyers ecstatic.
Conversely when someone walks into a Mercedes/BMW dealership to spend $50k on a car and don't get treated like Royalty that brand might me marked down for customer service even if the person buys that brand. Also Skyline Maniac brings up some good points. I have no doubt the Renesis engine will be very reliable - I am more concerned with other parts of the car (electric steering, rear seat belt rail etc) as there are a lot of unique features on this car compared to other Mazda vehicles. But reliability will probably be a lot better than the industry average (still a lot worse than Lexus/Acura/Infiniti). I agree with another of Skyline's points - having visited several Mazda delaerships I think that Mazda deserves it's below average customer service rating in the USA - 2 out of 3 dealers I went to were awful with dirty old buildings, poorly dressed/trained salespeople, terrible atmosphere etc - obviously I am working with the one good one. If I didn't want the car so badly I would have given up looking after the 2nd bad dealership experience. |
Originally posted by Quick_lude Regarding the transmission, it's only built by the same company that makes them for the Miata's right, it's not the same tranny? :confused: The 8 will produce a lot more hp/torque than a stock Miata ever did.. |
FWIW: The Cosmo 21 has been running the Renesis for some time now.
One of my options is to swap a J-spec Renesis into my 200,000+ mile 91 RX-7. |
Originally posted by SureShot One of my options is to swap a J-spec Renesis into my 200,000+ mile 91 RX-7. [edit] whoops, 91's an FC... i have no idea how that would work, i've just heard that the FD's aren't RENESIS friendly (or is it visa versa?? whatev... :)) |
Excuse my ignorance but ever since I found this forum and started reading I've been wondering what all the acronyms or codes mean i.e. FC, FD and so on.
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Excuse my ignorance but ever since I found this forum and started reading I've been wondering what all the acronyms or codes mean i.e. FC, FD and so on FD = 3rd Generation RX-7 |
Originally posted by SA22C According to some article I read many moons ago in Car and Driver, the six speed transmission in the 10AE Miata was way too strong for the motor. Some sources from Mazda said they were field testing a new transmision for the RX-Evolv. I don't know if current Miatas employ that particular six-speed, but on the 10AE, the transmissions were the same. If the article was correct, of course. ;) |
torque is a measurement of rotational FORCE, and horsepower is a measurement of ENERGY (how much force, how fast)... it's the force that stresses the transmission...
because the difference in power is mostly due to rpm, as long as the tranny can take that extra torque and is capable of spinning that quick (the differential in speed of some of the lower gears like 1st and 2nd is huge, even with a "not so big" operational 2k rpm difference), then it would be fine. of course, it might be MOSTLY the same tranny, selection forks and the like, with different ratios and stronger cogs inside...?? |
Originally posted by Quick_lude Regarding the transmission, it's only built by the same company that makes them for the Miata's right, it's not the same tranny? :confused: The 8 will produce a lot more hp/torque than a stock Miata ever did.. ---jps |
Originally posted by Sputnik Yeah, but there are plenty of modified Miatas out there which are putting out much more torque and HP than the Renesis.---jps |
I think you and I both are looking for this smiley.. http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmili...kopfpatsch.gif
:D Good point about the super/turbo Miatas.. |
I am new to posting here and not sure where this should go but I am a subscriber to Consumer Reports magazine, perhaps one of the most objective sources for automobile information of all kinds especially reliabliity and safety. Someone had posted that Mazda had ranked low in reliability. Mazda automobiles like the MPV, Protege, Miata, Millenia get better than average reliability ratings. Not a single Mazda appears on CUs used cars to avoid list, and three appear on the recommended list. For the year 2000 as an example, Mazda autos ranked 4 overall in the Better than average list, beating out the likes of Suburu, BMW, and mitsubishi. Lest you think CU doesn't have the data, they have feedback on 500,000 cars. The year 2002 yielded feedback on 480,000 vehicles. You don't have to be a statistician to know this is numericaly reliable data. I would caution all posters here to get your facts before making statements about reliability. As for customer satisfaction, I will do some more research. By category in terms of reliability the Protege, Miata and MPV rank in the top 5 in thier respective classes.
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commentator -- welcome to the Board.
I'd say, based upon your 1st post, glad to have ya !! Look forward to hearing more from you. |
Originally posted by commentator I am new to posting here and not sure where this should go but I am a subscriber to Consumer Reports magazine, perhaps one of the most objective sources for automobile information of all kinds especially reliabliity and safety. Someone had posted that Mazda had ranked low in reliability. Mazda automobiles like the MPV, Protege, Miata, Millenia get better than average reliability ratings. Not a single Mazda appears on CUs used cars to avoid list, and three appear on the recommended list. For the year 2000 as an example, Mazda autos ranked 4 overall in the Better than average list, beating out the likes of Suburu, BMW, and mitsubishi. Lest you think CU doesn't have the data, they have feedback on 500,000 cars. The year 2002 yielded feedback on 480,000 vehicles. You don't have to be a statistician to know this is numericaly reliable data. I would caution all posters here to get your facts before making statements about reliability. As for customer satisfaction, I will do some more research. By category in terms of reliability the Protege, Miata and MPV rank in the top 5 in thier respective classes. |
Good Show Commentator...
I would just like to comment that the overall reliability ratings of Mazda are also affected by their "worked over" Ford products like the B-series pickups and the Tribute. (No offense to our resident Ford Factory worker).
History has shown that a vehicle (such as my Protege) that is completely engineered and built by Mazda has great reliability, beating even vaunted Hondas and coming close to Toyota. Vehicles that borrow a few parts from Ford (such as my MPV) are also great in reliability. Vehicles that are rebadged Fords meet the same end as the sister Ford product. I think that since the rx-8 is engineered, produced, and built by Mazda in one of their Japanese plants, we have a pretty good chance of great reliability. From what I have read about the Rotory engine though, it has to be strictly maintained. You can't get away with slipshod maintenance like a piston engine. This may result in it getting some bad marks from lazy people. This is also my first post...I am one of the lurkers that will hopefully be buying a 2006 rx-8. (As soon as my 2002 MPV is paid off.) This is a great group, with good information. |
Just as it doesn't go the way of my TL-S :(
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Welcome, commentator, beaner!
Welcome to the board guys and thanks for bringing your insights on the reliability issue. Reliability is quite an important issue for all us protential and soon to be RX-8 owners on this forum. This is because as you know the previous Turboed Rotary engines really drag the Rotary Engine name through the mud in terms of reliability. Hopefully the Renesis will clear its name once and for all.
Welcome to the Forum. |
and even that was fixed except by that time the rx-7 was gone from this land so the only ones who can really testify are those lucky folks living in japan.
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I've never owned a rotary before, but I own a 79 GLC and a 93 MX-6 and have had no major porblems with either.....
however, i do see an ususually high number of rx-7 1st & 2nd gens in the local boneyards...my theory is, that most people don't work on their own stuff & finding a repair shop to work on rotaries is either difficult to find or expensive, so people just elect to junk the whole car. What do you think? Why so many 7's in boneyards? norats |
My first car (purchased by me) was a 1989 Mazda 323. Engine and associated mechanicals were awesome. The only real problem with it was the rear wheel bearings (burned out frequently), which I heard was an engineering design carried over from the Ford Escort.
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Originally posted by norats however, i do see an ususually high number of rx-7 1st & 2nd gens in the local boneyards...my theory is, that most people don't work on their own stuff & finding a repair shop to work on rotaries is either difficult to find or expensive, so people just elect to junk the whole car. Combine that with the fact that you do have to do maintenance on an RX-7, and if you don't have a local rotary shop and don't want to go to a garage, when the apex seals go, you're done - a rotary isn't like a standard engine where you can just ignore the timing belt/chain and wait until your valves are fried. Finally, a number are there simply because their drivers didn't know how to handle a relatively inexpensive sports car and so tweaked their frames; many have engines that have hundreds of thousands of miles of life left in them but have had a unibody-mangling accident... |
From what I have read about the Rotory engine though, it has to be strictly maintained. You can't get away with slipshod maintenance like a piston engine. This may result in it getting some bad marks from lazy people. |
Well, I know for the Miata, the 90 has a weak crank. This was fixed in 91 models. The 99 Miata (the first year of the 2nd gen) had a bearing problem which was recalled early in 2000. Other than that, no major problems.
The Miata's transmission can handle between 260rwhp-300rwhp with equal torque numbers before they break. For aftermarket turbo's, you probably won't see anything above 8psi for the RX-8. |
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