RX8Lover

To be perfectly honest, people are just starting to get their cars, and you come here to state these "facts" ( I use the term loosely).

Give the cars a chance to get a little more widespread before you start a debate. And I think you've earned quite a few ignores from people, and frankly I don't blame them. You come across very pompous, and as a community here we really don't need your "insight".

So say what you will, but realize that most people may not see your remarks because you are ignored. have a great life.

silver8

Tresch said: "Should we be able to have a friendly, mature discussion about it in the meantime? I don't see why not."

Psychology 101 was 20 years ago for me, but I do recall the theory of cognitive dissonance ( http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/stephens/cdback.html). If that theory holds true, it provides an explanation for the aggressively defensive tone of the 8's owners. This is exacerbated by Mazda's offer to buy the car back...these owners have the opportunity (for six more days if they haven't chosen the maintenance offer) to return the car and put it all behind them. Those that have chosen to keep the car will, according to the theory, seek to dispel and disprove anything that suggests there are issues with the car.

Tresch and 350 both have, in my opinion, very accurate posts. As they aren't owners (yet, perhaps in the case of Tresch), they may be better positioned to offer truely objective input on all the HP and related issues than us owners. Granted, 350 spends a lot of time here for not owning the car, but he's probably enthralled by the blind subjectivity of rx8glover and others.

Gord96BRG

For a know-it-all, you sure are missing some common data. Go read some of the magazine long-term tests, where they've run performance data on their test cars when new and then again after 20K miles plus. It is actually quite common for a car to pick up several tenths and several mph with the additional mileage (and this is presuming several runs averaged, not just the single best run). IE, more than 0-5 HP.

So, the RX-8 runs you witnessed - how did their drivers launch? 8K rpm with a clutch drop? If not, then the times you witnessed are slow because of the driver, not the car. I have less faith in the ability of the average driver to get maximum performance from the car (and thus generate a representative result) than you do.

Regards,
Gordon

Tresch

silver8 -

You said exacerbated! That makes you OK in my book! :D

Welp, I guess it's up to everyone to draw their own conclusions at this point. The way I see it, personally.. is that all the evidence point to missing horsepower, with a THEORY that it might improve enough over time.

Hopefully it's all sorted out by spring. I would really like to see this car take off.

-Tresch

aussie77

Here are the 1/4 mile times I've managed to find on these forums:

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.p...%2F4+mile+time

15.16 @ 92mph from a guy who had NEVER run at the track before. Launched at 6000 rpm.


http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.p...%2F4+mile+time

15.21 @ 91.9 mph
Car with 745 miles on it. Experienced driver new to car who claimed it was a horrible time and thinks he could do much better.


http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.p...%2F4+mile+time

15.277 @ 90.38 mph
1350 miles on the car, launching at 6000rpm.


http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.p...%2F4+mile+time

14.742 @ 96.13
Car with 1100 miles on it. Three runs, all three under 15s.

Then of course there is the GTechPro run at 14.0 seconds which you completely discount...

Not exactly a whole lot of information for you to judge your statements on, Blue 350z. That's assuming of course you are even interested in the truth.

aussie77

Personally I am all for a mature discussion of the topic. It is hard to have a mature discussion with someone who exaggerates wildly, completely ignores all logical arguments thrown at him, and is obviously interested only in argument, not resolution.

If we ignore the timeslips released by Mazda, we currently have four, maybe six track times by actual owners. I found four with a reasonable search of the forums.

Now, three of them were low 15's, one was 14.7ish. Of the three 15's, two were on 6000 rpm launches, which I think at this point everyone on this forum knows is NOT your optimal launch rpm. The third 15s time was from a guy who owns a very damned fast RX-7 with plenty of experience who seemed confident he could get a better time after driving the car some more.

EIther way, there is not enough evidence to truly draw conclusions at this point. Which again brings us back to a discussion filled with opinions. It would help a lot of some people didn't come in here aggressively stating their opinions as facts, and exaggerate what small information we do have while ignoring any info that doesn't support their pre-conceived goal of criticizing the car.

Blue 350z

All I am going to say to this is:

The guy that ran a 15.16@91.96 pulled a 2.16 60' .. Your not going to get too much better then that, maybe a 2.0 60' which may get that car under 15 seconds barley. This means numbers will only improve if dyno numbers improve, its a matter of facts and physics, not opinion.

Also how much are you expecting from 175-180rwhp on average? No matter how you launch or what 60' you get (to a point), the trap speed pretty much tells the tale of HP and potential ET. 92mph is not gonna get you too much lower then 15.0.

Also what if the car can crack a 14.9 or a 14.8 maybe 1 on 20 runs?? It has already shown by drivers that the car will consistantly run low 15's.

And my first time ever racing my Z at the track it had 1500 miles on it and my very first run ever was a 14.18@100.56. If you know ow to drive a car, it shouldn't matter how many times you hit the track before you can be concidered to be a legit time.

Like the 350z's, on average most run 14.0-14.3 (go to my350z.com and see the 1/4 time registry) and with the occasional awesome hook-up launch people crack into the 13's. But 350z's run consistantly in the low 14's. I know some 350z's stock can consistantly run a 13.6-13.8 in some of the "freak" engines.

I last thing, on the long term test drives I have rarely seen a car gain more then .2 and 2mph at 40k miles. Do you think all the 350z people were holding there breath waiting to be able to hit the published mag times all the way till the magical 20k miles or 40k miles? No, some of the very first time slips posted by members were already better then published times.

Dyno numbers will need to go up before you start seeing people running consistantly better then low 15's.

nk_Rx8

From what I see here so far, I think this car will be a high 14sec to 15 flat ET car after more cars are out there and more practice. Like when the S2000 was new, ET's were all over the place because a lower torque car that needs to be launched at high rpm is ticky to get just right. (So I'm ignoring ET's for now and looking only at trap speeds). So for awhile the S2K's were running low 15's and mid to high 14's. Now I see a lot of mid 14's and there were some freaks with perfect conditions that have shown timeslips of 13.9's or 14 flats. But I still think in general it is a ~mid 14 sec car on average with trap speeds ~94-96MPH.

The RX8 is slightly heavier than the S2000. There was a post where someone weighed their RX8GT with half a tank of gas and it was 3000lbs even with no driver. Some S2K's have weighed between 2800-2900 lbs with no driver. So with that 100-200lb difference and approximately equal HP ratings, the RX8 will probably shake out as a 14.7-15.0 sec car depending on driver after people start to get more consistent with driving the car. Already there are some lower traps of ~92, but there is also one that are in the 95-96mph range. So I think the trap speeds seen will average out to be just a hair less that what S20K driver's see on average due to weight differences of the cars. So I do think it is possible that the 238HP really is there. We'll just have to wait and see.

aussie77

Why are you so quick to exaggerate the facts? What drivers are you talking about? You make it sound like we have fifty or more people who can't break 15.2 seconds when in fact we have THREE. Again if you would bother to read for the purpose of understanding rather than just finding ammunition for your reply, you would note that TWO of the THREE ran with lower RPM launches which do NOT give the car an optimal start. That isn't a complicated concept, and someone with two degrees such as yourself should be able to wrap your mind around it. We currently have too little data to draw any solid conclusions - so stop stating your opinions as though they are facts.

Blue 350z

High RPM cars are very difficult to launch consistantly, usually from the lack of torque. But you can't argue that a 2.16 60' is a pretty good 60' and that got him a 15.16@91.96. So even if that peticular car (I say peticular because some RX8's have more or less power to the wheels) nailed a perfect launch, say a 2.0 60' that would hit about a 14.95-15.0ish ET.

You can say better launches all you want, a 2.16 60' is pretty good.

Aussie, we will have this convo 2-3 months from now, again and well see if people are still running low 15's still.. I say consistant because there will be a few runs here and there better, but I can put money on it that the RX8 will be a consistant low 15's car, UNLESS magically (or if Mazda tweaks) the dyno's will rise and numbers will fall.

Come on! 92 MPH traps! No offense but thats really weak.. What are you expecting to see?? low 14's with a 92 trap?? Usually better launches = lower traps..

Sneakyracer

aussie:
I checked www.rotarynews.com ,
they posted several factory mazda rx8 drag timeslips. Interesting enough, one of the cars wouldnt crack the 14's, even with a 2.0 60ft it still did low 15's! While others posted 95-97mph trap speeds at 14.4-14.5 sec. That is a HUGE difference! no suck difference in drivers. A good driver might get a better 60ft time than a bad driver and up to 2mph better in the 1/4 but 5-6mph better, not likely.

So it seems some people are getting 15sec cars others 14sec cars. its all so confusing, here are the facts so far:


1. 15.0-15.3 1/4 mile times at 91-92mph, all day on stock RX8, w/ 60ft times of 2-2.4sec.

2. 14.4-14.9 timeslips at 95-99mph, again 60ft times of 2.0-2.3

3. dyno charts from a dynojet, 175~188 (stock, no race gas)

4. dyno of a rx8 with exhaust, 18X.XX wheelHP.

5. JDM RX8 dyno at over 200 whp.

6. people stating with conviction that the RX8 goes into some kind of safety mode at the dyno.

7. people stating that the RX8 will gain 10-20whp from break in.



Like some people suggested lets wait till more people dyno their cars and race the at the dragstrip. To those who own RX8 if I were you i woulve gone to the track looong ago and maybe to a dynojet also and would speak on fact. I am trying to get a hold of a RX8 owner in Puerto Rico to see if he can provide some REAL data. I already know S2000, 350z and G35coupe 6MT owners so i could arrange to meet all at the track and do some real testing.

Blue 350z

Hey if i remember right I seen a time slip on that rotary site that had a 2.3 60' run a 14.5@96 and then another had a 2.0 60' and ran around a 15.0..

I SMELLY SOMETHING VERY FISHY!

-The cars with the good times probably were the pre-production pre-ECU tweaked RX8's running what they should be running.

-The others seem to be the watered down emmissions friendly production USA models that are running low 15's.

I think this makes 100% sense

RX8Lover

Can we all just stop feeding Blue350Z ammunition?

Nothing we say or show will EVER convince him that his almighty 350z would be shadowed by an RX8.

We can list all the timeslips, all the explanations on the RX8 safety mode screwing with dynos, and all the hard data we want. Until this guy sees with his own EYES at a track, nothing will satisfy him.

Let's all just do everyone a favor and ignore him.

Blue 350z

OK I had it with you RX8LOVER....

What does RX8 vs 350z have to do with this convo? And I am beginning to think your a real jerk now, All I am doing is talking about facts here. Name thing 1 thing I said that was not 100% factual or name 1 time I had bashed somebody for no reason or said 1 negative thing about the RX8 itself. What is your damn problem with me? The fact that I know about cars and I shoot down people's BS bother you? Should I leave so you can all just think to yourself whatever you want even if its not true at all?

Go ahead, believe the low 15's RX8 is someday magically going to get faster, sooner or later you will realize it's not gonna happen. Its going to be a low 15 second car. No biggie, its just off the expectations made by Mazda. Be mad at Mazda, not me and stop with the hostillity already and grow the heck up!!

Tresch

Hey, other people are reading the thread too though, you can ignore him if you want, I say keep the info coming!

I think some of this is good stuff, starting to get some good collections of data and observations on BOTH sides of the issue. I like I like!

I'm really thinking about throwing together a simple website and compiling all the dyno charts and timeslips I can find. I don't know why this interests me so much, but it started out as a little aggrivating, now it's just a puzzle!

Maybe when the dealer gets their test drive car in, I can mark off a 1/4 mile on a country road grab a friend with a stopwatch and see what we can see, hehe.

I'm also really curious to see how well the thing responds to more and more aftermarket performance stuff. Would be sweet if you could get the car into 13s with just bolt-ons. Maybe wishful thinking? maybe not! That's a whole other topic though

Gord96BRG

Yes, please. Thanks for offering, this will be very much appreciated by so many!

Regards,
Gordon

RX8Lover

I second that. Take care.

nk_Rx8

Regardless of how good the 60' times were on some of those timeslips, there are a bunch 92mph traps and a few ~95mph traps in the runs people have done (GTech not included since I don't trust GTech times from experience). So if you assume that there is a difference on different days/nights due to humidty, elevation, or temp, we may take a 'reaching stab' at extrapolating that, maybe on average, we may see traps in the low 90-mid 90's range. The mid 90's trap speeds would support that a 3150-3200lb car (driver included) may have ~200whp. Right now, everyone can and seems to be making assumptions right now, but right now noone knows which cars are the outliers. Who knows, maybe the 96mph trap was a fluke, but maybe so are the 91-92's. There just needs to be more data to make a conclusion for now. And if you want to get really accurate, then everyone should include humidity, temp and elevation data with the timeslips so that the traps can be normalized.

I have to say that I still have my reservations, but I am open to the notion that it may prove to actually have the advertised HP. I'm just going to keep watching and looking at the info/data as it comes in and ask an occasional question about it for now before taking a firm stance like it seems many have already.

mikeb

blue350 will be back when he gets bored
too bad though

Blue 350z

You guys are wicked F'ed up on these forums. I get nothing but attitude just because I drive a 350z? Or is it because I state facts that you people don't like because you can't admit its the truth??

You people have alot to learn on these forums about how to treat people.

I know exactly where the aggression comes from, you guys are pissed cuz you got had by Mazda and have no other recourse but to take it out on outsiders that's car is running as advertised. Mazda will have the last laugh because they are still selling them overrated at 238HP.

Take your POS Renesis engine getting 15-17MPG thats making no HP or TQ and cry over and over again about where the HP is and when its coming back. Pretend the horsepower fairy is going to come and sprinkle HP into your engine one day. All I know is I bought a car with 287HP and 274TQ and I got every single one of them and then some meeting and exceeding published times.

SO continue making posts crying about where all that HP went, keep making excuses, keep living in dreamland and have fun running low 15's at the track and keeping up with sedans and gettign beat by RSX Type-S's, because its not going to change. I'll be checking in now and then just to point out that its still a 15 second car and eventually your "wait wait wait" excuse with run flat and you will have to face facts then.

Deny it all you want. Your getting a measely 16MPG and getting civic like TQ and the RX8 is missing like 30+HP all for a $30k-35k, good deal!!

You should check out what other forums around the net think about your RX8, most just call it a joke running mid 15's. No lie, even the crossfire people are crapping on it and they only have 215HP and are running high 14's.

I tried to ignore all these negative comments toward me but I can only take so much. You people are so bitter and it shows like neon lights. Its pretty sad.

mikeb

If you feelings get hurt we go you come back like a ex-girlfriend

mikeb

I meant why do you come back like an ex girlfriend
take the hint and leave

Blue 350z

Sorry, I can't read this, I forgot my decoder pen

mikeb

what I'm trying to say is you always come back like a battered women

Blue 350z

LOL, I'm not the battered one, I am happy as hell with my Z. Your the bitter battered woman that keeps coming back to Mazda even after they told you that you got ripped for 35HP.