124Spider

I look forward to it. Do keep in mind that the thread is about comparing an S2000 to an RX-8. Although I like the 350Z, for pure driving (ignoring the fact that I love roadsters), I would choose the RX-8 over the 350Z (but that's me).

Aseras

well when i was car shopping the choices were s2k, rx8 and basically about every other car in the 25-35 category. I kept coming back to the rx8 because it was cheaper, and far more practical. convertibles tend to be a pain in the *** for long term ownership. so do sunroofs. I ended up with a rx8 out the door ttt and all for 22k. Loaded out with the exception of nav and sunroof, it has everything else.

MazdaRich

StealthFox, I can sum up his comments for you. "What!?!? How dare anyone compare the RX-8 to my beloved S2K!! Bite your tongue! The S2K is the best car ever made."

Okay well I drove an S2K, 350Z, and an RX-8 today (along with my 2001 Miata.) The S2K is a fine automobile which really is meant to be driven at the track. On the street it's okay, but it felt a little bulky and less connected to the road than either Mazda. The seating position is a little high and the cabin is extremely cramped.

The 350Z further insulates you from the road, but damn that motor is something else. The Z is very comfortable, tight and goes like stink. I was much more impressed by that car than I expected. The ride was the worst of all four, despite having the most heft. I thought the Z had the most comfortable seating and cabin of all four cars.

The wonderful thing about the RX-8 is that you always have a feel for what the car is planning to do next. It doesn't come up and bite you the way the S2K can. It's an easy car to push at the limit. I haven't driven the S2K or Z at the limit yet, but I have seen how difficult the 2000 can be at times. The 350Z seems like a really easy car to drive fast, but maybe not as exciting or involving as the RX or Miata, and probably a lot more likely to get you into trouble.

So it's whatever you're into. S2000 is a droptop, twitchy race car for the street. The RX-8 is a civilized race car with a closed cabin and seating for four. This is America--you can have whatever you can afford.

Ike

It's posts like this that just confirm that is you like or even can deal with the looks of the STi and or Evo they are by far the best cars in the category, at least if you're lookign for something that somewhat practical and fun as hell to drive.

StealthFox

yeah if you dont mind the looks they cant be touched for the money, they scream boyracer soo bad though, especially with the evo's factory fitted aftermarket parts. i dont mind it, its grown on me now and i love the stuff, cant get enough, but i also like the FR n/a cars too as well, which many of the factory rice crowd doesnt like so much.

Ike

You realize that makes zero sense right?

124Spider

It's a pity you can't read. Fortunately, I suspect that StealthFox can, and he actually will. IMO the S2000 is the best performance roadster available today for its price. That's all I've ever said, and that's pretty hard to argue with. There are lots of better cars out there, as I've said many times. If practicality and/or comfort is important to you, the S2000 is not the appropriate car for you. People who don't want a roadster will (and should) look elsewhere.

If you want to, you can compare any two cars. That doesn't mean it makes sense to do so. Obviously, some people do compare the S2000 and RX-8, but I would bet that a very, very small percentage of those who bought the RX-8 had the S2000 as the losing finalist, and very, very few who buy the S2000 have the RX-8 as the losing finalist. Whether you choose to realize it or not, the two are very different cars, offering very different driving experiences. Few who want what one offers will be highly interested in the other.

But go ahead and ignore my actual words, and make up others....

I'm curious; if you think that convertibles are a PITA, why did you "consider" one? How long after you had driven it did you realize that the S2000 is a convertible?

klegg

That is a funny post!

Aseras

i considered getting one and a removable hard top. the s2k is a fine car, but I tend to keep the cars I buy so after my week of cool down after driving my chioces I couldn't justify the covertible and hard top for long term ownership. the 12,000 price diffrence was a big kicker too. I have a honda civic as my other car, and I'm impressed with it so far. I drive a lot, near 50,000 mile a year and most of it highway so the convertible option was a consideration since primarily i drive the civic for commute and the new car ( now the 8 ) for pleasure and the occaisonal trip.

Socr8tes

I would guess that more sports car shoppers than you suggest don't create this dichotomy between convertibles and coupes. Tops equal, I think the S2000 would be the most comparable to an RX-8. Both feel pretty similar behind the wheel. Maybe I'm projecting my opinion (I wouldn't want to claim my view as fact now ) but I think the additional seats are more a consideration for the typical RX-8 shopper than a convertible top. Simply, it's not as black and white as top vs. no top and there are plenty of other areas to compare between these two.

klegg

Why does this have to be a black v. white issue? Can't we all just get along... :p

124Spider

No, it's not, and I always mention the four-door, four-seat aspects of the RX-8. What I am trying to point out, with some difficulty, apparently, is that, fundamentally, the S2000 is an elemental roadster, with little comfort and no storage room, while the RX-8 is a four-door, four-seat coupe, with lots of comfort and storage, but lots of compromises.

Certainly there are similarities to the way they drive (as I've said many times), although the S2000 is faster, quicker and more nimble. But, in the end, if you want a convertible, you would not consider the RX-8, and if you want comfort and four seats, you wouldn't consider the S2000. I suspect that the vast majority of S2000 owners wanted a convertible, and didn't care about comfort and four seats in this car (which is why so few of them are sold); likewise, I suspect that the vast majority of RX-8 owners do car about comfort, spaciousness and four seats.

Why is this controversial?

The RX-8 is almost never mentioned on the S2000 board, not because of lack of respect, but because it's a totally different car, and not one S2000 owners considered when buying their S2000. Why is it that someone on this board almost weekly tries to pretend that the two are competitors (and that the RX-8 is superior), when they so obviously occupy different market segments?

MazdaRich

I just don't understand what your point is 124. I am cross shopping the S2K and the RX-8 right now. Am I the only one? Throw in the 350Z and MazdaSpeed Miata, and you've pretty much covered the segment. For some people the choice doesn't just come down to the roof.

I didn't buy Miata because it was a convertible--I bought it because it gave an awesome driving experience and it happened to be a convertible. Yes, that it a huge plus for the car. I don't really care if the 8 has a backseat or not. I'm probably going to get one because it is the car that offers me the driving experience I am looking for.

124Spider

I'm really sorry you "don't understand my point." It's stated pretty clearly, many times in this thread.

Among the things I've stated pretty clearly is that, yes, some people will seriously consider both, but that's a very small percentage of those who will consider one or the other. The mere fact that a few people consider two particular cars when deciding what car to buy doesn't define the segment.

If you ask S2000 owners to name the other cars in their segment, very, very few will even think of the RX-8, much less mention it. The "segment" the S2000 occupies is the high performance, somewhat affordable roadsters. That rarely is thought to include the Mazdaspeed Miata or the RX-8. It typically includes the Boxster, the BMW Z4, the 350Z roadster, and sometimes the Audi TT. It does not include the RX-8.

Some people can't decide whether they want a pickup or a Corvette (my brother was one like that); that doesn't mean that the two occupy the same segment.Car & Driver is not in the habit of naming two cars in the same "segment" to their Ten Best list, and the 2004 list included both the S2000 and the RX-8, extolling the pure sports car virtues of the S2000 and the functionality, while still fun to drive, of the RX-8. Different attributes. Go to the Road & Track website, look up articles on the RX-8, and see what the website points you toward as the market segment--cars like the Audi A4, not high performance roadsters.

The RX-8 is a fine car. The S2000 is a fine car. They are fundamentally different, with some similarities. Why is this controversial?

Socr8tes

Let me further simplify: I could care less about whether my car had 4 seats or a convertible top. I wanted a car that I liked to drive. I don't think the "vast majority" necessarily thinks differently as you describe. The fact that this is "so controversial" and that you've said it "13 times" should have clued you in...

klegg

Actually, I think spiders point is well made. Are you trying to screw with him? Cuse it sure seems that way.

Bottem line is that he is right. They are two differnet things. The s2k simply will not work for most people, while the 8 is a much more "civil" for day to day. This is not a profound statement, it is not hard to grasp.

124Spider

The fact that two people keep trying to insist that the cars are "competitors" when there is no evidence to support that, and the fact that I made the grave error of trying to talk sense to them, does not mean that most people agree with you. More people have stated, in this thread alone, that the cars are different than have stated that they are "competitors."

Whatever.

klegg

My weed wacker is a 4 stroke, it really can go when you blip the throttle with the tiller attachment. Ijust do not know, with the revs and all, if the 8 is better.

The tiller is open air, after all and handles like a well balenced tool..

Sigma

Sorry, I don't know too many RX-8 owners that did or even would have considered the S2000. I certainly know I fit into that category. I have no desire for a roadster that's more at home on a track than on a highway.

Most S2000 owners are going to see the RX-8 as making a lot of compromises for streetability and market desireability. The same goes for most RX-8 owners looking at the S2000, just in the other direction.

I can't recall seeing a lot of threads and certainly no mag articles pitting the RX-8 against the MazdaSpeed MX-5 -- but if the S2000 is a significant competitor to the RX-8 the MS Miata is even more of one.

StealthFox

hmm, well, even though the rx8 and the s2k cover two market segments(sports coupe and sports roadster) they *most likely* are the two most simular feeling cars, the rx8 being more docile. they look really simular, have simular power and handling(although the s2000 is far more superior, obviously and cost about the same price. im intrested in the car for its overall coolness, funness to drive, aftermarket support, and all. out of the sport roadster segment, the s2k is my favorite hands down, i love honda sports cars and the s2k is probably the best looking car thats not exotic out there next to the rx8 in my eyes. im just not much for convertibles at all and in into rotarys so thats why i prefer the 8, i could care less about the comfort or 2+2 seats, i never use them anyway, and im MANY years from the point where i'd need a comfortable car thats quiet or has nice seats and leather and accomodations, im probably the epitome of not needing comfort, i could care less if i had plastic seats and no interior with just raw metal frame and rollcage bars as my daily interface. but since the rx8 is what it is, the rx8 doubles as "pimp" car that i cruise in and pick up chicks and such. but it was bought for a driving car/weekend car/tuner car primarily(and even though the s2k or Z would fit my bill more, neither come close to grasping me than the 8, and they certainly do not have rotary engines.)



and Spider, also once i get my AutoExe front and rear 4 point strut bars, front and rear racing beat anti sway bars and endlinks, mazdaspeed 18 inch magnesium wheels and fresh yokohama tires, JIC FLT-A2 coilover suspension system, Autoexe 4 pt lower arm undercarriage brace set, mazdaspeed 2 way LSD, full Cusco pillowball suspension system, rear lateral links, rear trailing rod assembly, negative camber upper A arms, adjustable pillowball tension rods and mazdaspeed 8 point rollcage,

WE'LL SEE WHO'LL BE OUTHANDLING WHO AT THE TRACK!!!!!!!!!!!!


...just kidding, im just a poor student :P

tazzydnc

I'm not sure the rx8 falls into any real catagory. Its kind of its own machine. It has the looks and styling of cars like the Z, but maintains some of the practicality a sedan has to offer. On the track the Z and S2000 are for the most part better choices, and sedans like the 3 series still have the edge on practicality, but the 8 can fit both roles and not many cars can boast that.

I must say though, it's much easier to throw a turbo into an 8 than it is to put back seats in a Z. From what I remember, for the same features the 8 is the cheapest of the 3, so the price difference allows you to do that if you want.

klegg

Actually, I think the performance numbers, excepting the 0-60, were in the 8's favor when compared to the Z.

StealthFox

"I must say though, it's much easier to throw a turbo into an 8 than it is to put back seats in a Z. From what I remember, for the same features the 8 is the cheapest of the 3, so the price difference allows you to do that if you want."

good point, im going to have to bring that up in future debates. and once you put a turbo in an 8, well, lets say it will blow a Z out of the water, it will have the practicality, handling, and speed advantage for the same price(also the cars actually have simular 0-60 times stock, the Z just has a little more scoot on the initial blip because of the torque)

Socr8tes

Just for the record, I’ve never stated that the RX-8 and S2000 are in the same exact market segment nor am I saying one is better than the other. Heck, you could break cars into subcategories all day until there’s only one or two in each. All I’m debating is your unwavering adamancy that people wouldn’t consider the two cars when they begin shopping around. Perhaps not everyone, or even the majority, but I think more might than you let on. I agree that someone who favors the convertible will choose the S2000 in the end. If someone told you that they were looking for a mid-priced Japanese sports/sporty car, what might you recommend to them? I also admit that I may be projecting my own thoughts and experiences on everyone else in the free world, so just show me the market research that supports your claim and I’ll concede. :D

124Spider

This I can agree with, with the caveat that once someone has been bitten by the roadster bug, nothing else will do. For those few who don't care much one way or the other about a convertible or about space and comfort, certainly they might consider both (at least until jarred into reality by just how elemental the S2000 is).

Peace.