Oregon to sell a blended fuel that is 10 percent ethanol
03-11-2008, 12:43 AM
#1
Oregon to sell a blended fuel that is 10 percent ethanol
Not sure where to put this so mods please move it if necessary.
Any impact with 10% ethanol added to our gas? HP? MPG?
Any impact with 10% ethanol added to our gas? HP? MPG?
Oregon gas stations required to sell ethanol fuel
11:13 AM PST on Monday, January 14, 2008
Associated Press
SALEM, Ore. -- Starting Jan. 15, gas stations in nine counties in Northwest Oregon will be required to sell a blended fuel that is 10 percent ethanol.
AP graphic
The rest of the state will join them over the next nine months, in a phased-in implementation of the state's new renewable fuel standards.
Gas station owners and the inspectors who will ensure compliance, are getting ready for the change, and hoping that motorists don't experience any problems with their vehicles.
Under a law passed this year by the legislature, the renewable fuel standard for ethanol kicks in when Oregon's ethanol production has the capacity to reach 40 million gallons a year.
The state achieved that goal this summer when Pacific Ethanol began producing at the Port of Morrow.
By Jan. 15, the blended fuel will become mandatory in Multnomah, Clackamas, Washington, Clatsop, Columbia, Tillamook, Yamhill, Polk and Marion counties. Portland had its own requirement for ethanol-blended fuel already in place.
By April 15, Linn, Lane, Benton, Lincoln, Douglas, Coos, Jackson, Josephine, and Curry counties will join the effort. Finally, by Sept. 16, all counties east of the Cascades will complete the full statewide implementation.
"The consumer should see minimal difference in mileage or the performance of their vehicle with the new fuel standard," said Russ Wyckoff, administrator of the Oregon Department of Agriculture's Measurement Standards Division. Assuming the storage tanks at
Older vehicles that already may have some water contamination in their tanks may be affected by the change, he said. And motorists may need to change a fuel filter soon after the ethanol-blended product is put into the tank for the first time.
Advocates of blending gasoline with ethanol say it helps the environment, reduces dependency on foreign oil and, hopefully, will drop the price of motor fuel.
Another large-scale ethanol plant is planned at Clatskanie, Wyckoff said. Between the two plants, the majority of ethanol needed to supply the state eventually could come from local production. Other ethanol plants are on the drawing board at the Port of Morrow and in Stanfield.
11:13 AM PST on Monday, January 14, 2008
Associated Press
SALEM, Ore. -- Starting Jan. 15, gas stations in nine counties in Northwest Oregon will be required to sell a blended fuel that is 10 percent ethanol.
AP graphic
The rest of the state will join them over the next nine months, in a phased-in implementation of the state's new renewable fuel standards.
Gas station owners and the inspectors who will ensure compliance, are getting ready for the change, and hoping that motorists don't experience any problems with their vehicles.
Under a law passed this year by the legislature, the renewable fuel standard for ethanol kicks in when Oregon's ethanol production has the capacity to reach 40 million gallons a year.
The state achieved that goal this summer when Pacific Ethanol began producing at the Port of Morrow.
By Jan. 15, the blended fuel will become mandatory in Multnomah, Clackamas, Washington, Clatsop, Columbia, Tillamook, Yamhill, Polk and Marion counties. Portland had its own requirement for ethanol-blended fuel already in place.
By April 15, Linn, Lane, Benton, Lincoln, Douglas, Coos, Jackson, Josephine, and Curry counties will join the effort. Finally, by Sept. 16, all counties east of the Cascades will complete the full statewide implementation.
"The consumer should see minimal difference in mileage or the performance of their vehicle with the new fuel standard," said Russ Wyckoff, administrator of the Oregon Department of Agriculture's Measurement Standards Division. Assuming the storage tanks at
Older vehicles that already may have some water contamination in their tanks may be affected by the change, he said. And motorists may need to change a fuel filter soon after the ethanol-blended product is put into the tank for the first time.
Advocates of blending gasoline with ethanol say it helps the environment, reduces dependency on foreign oil and, hopefully, will drop the price of motor fuel.
Another large-scale ethanol plant is planned at Clatskanie, Wyckoff said. Between the two plants, the majority of ethanol needed to supply the state eventually could come from local production. Other ethanol plants are on the drawing board at the Port of Morrow and in Stanfield.
03-11-2008, 01:50 AM
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"studies have shown" that there is a noticeable GAIN of horsepower...
the only reason you lose fuel mileage is because ethanol has a lot of oxygen attached to it. Stoich AFR for ethanol is around 9:1 and regular gas is 14.7:1. The bonded oxygen is great for power though. You really up the oxygen content with alcohol fuels.
yeah, ethanol rocks your world buckaroo
the only reason you lose fuel mileage is because ethanol has a lot of oxygen attached to it. Stoich AFR for ethanol is around 9:1 and regular gas is 14.7:1. The bonded oxygen is great for power though. You really up the oxygen content with alcohol fuels.
yeah, ethanol rocks your world buckaroo
03-11-2008, 08:48 AM
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ehanol is more like 110 octane, there wont be a loss of hp, you wont feel a difference. your mpg MIGHT go down a little, but you probably wont even notice. We have a few stations around here that have that fuel and you cannot tell a difference. now if it was like the e85 you would notice a drop in mpg but if you retuned you car you could get a bit more hp out of it.
03-11-2008, 08:51 AM
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"studies have shown" that there is a noticeable GAIN of horsepower...
the only reason you lose fuel mileage is because ethanol has a lot of oxygen attached to it. Stoich AFR for ethanol is around 9:1 and regular gas is 14.7:1. The bonded oxygen is great for power though. You really up the oxygen content with alcohol fuels.
yeah, ethanol rocks your world buckaroo
the only reason you lose fuel mileage is because ethanol has a lot of oxygen attached to it. Stoich AFR for ethanol is around 9:1 and regular gas is 14.7:1. The bonded oxygen is great for power though. You really up the oxygen content with alcohol fuels.
yeah, ethanol rocks your world buckaroo
03-11-2008, 09:03 AM
#6
i pwn therefore i am
We've been on 10% ethanol here for 2 years or more. There is most assuredly a difference in mpg. I've experienced about 5-8% and I've read studies that say about the same numbers.
03-11-2008, 09:06 AM
#7
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10% ethanol is pretty standard in many parts of the country. It's all you can get here. As stated above it is around 110 octane. Keep in mind that if you 87 octane gas has 10% ethanol in it, that doesn't it's not still 87 octane. It is.
Ethanol has a much richer stoich a/f ratio than gasoline which means you need alot more just to get to the proper a/f ratios. On top of this ethanol has fewer btu's than gasoline. It takes more of it to get the same mileage as gasoline. Alot more of it. Ethanol as used on a naturally aspirated engine will cause you to LOSE power. You will not gain. In order to overcome this you would need to raise the compression ratio significantly and retune the engine. While possible on a piston engine, this isn't going to happen on a rotary.
Power on forced inducted engines is different. They can get a gain in power as the higher octane of ethanol can allow them to run more boost and more aggressive timing. The cooling benefits of ethanol also contribute to forced induction power gain.
Keep in mind you will never increase your gas mileage with ethanol and will always lose. Even a nice power gain with forced induction will come at the expense of 30% less fuel economy. All of the above applies to straight ethanol. A 10% blend isn't anything to get excited about. Mileage will not vary appreciably (a very small amount if any at all) and power won't increase at all. Resistance to knock is also going to be no different than on 100% gasoline as the octane of the fuel isn't changing. A 10% blend is pretty worthless and is nothing more than flawed environmentalist logic that has gotten us to use it.
I'm surprised Oregon hasn't been using this already. Usually the west coast sets the precedent that the rest of the country gets ruined on. I don't trust any place that doesn't let me pump my own gas though.
Ethanol has a much richer stoich a/f ratio than gasoline which means you need alot more just to get to the proper a/f ratios. On top of this ethanol has fewer btu's than gasoline. It takes more of it to get the same mileage as gasoline. Alot more of it. Ethanol as used on a naturally aspirated engine will cause you to LOSE power. You will not gain. In order to overcome this you would need to raise the compression ratio significantly and retune the engine. While possible on a piston engine, this isn't going to happen on a rotary.
Power on forced inducted engines is different. They can get a gain in power as the higher octane of ethanol can allow them to run more boost and more aggressive timing. The cooling benefits of ethanol also contribute to forced induction power gain.
Keep in mind you will never increase your gas mileage with ethanol and will always lose. Even a nice power gain with forced induction will come at the expense of 30% less fuel economy. All of the above applies to straight ethanol. A 10% blend isn't anything to get excited about. Mileage will not vary appreciably (a very small amount if any at all) and power won't increase at all. Resistance to knock is also going to be no different than on 100% gasoline as the octane of the fuel isn't changing. A 10% blend is pretty worthless and is nothing more than flawed environmentalist logic that has gotten us to use it.
I'm surprised Oregon hasn't been using this already. Usually the west coast sets the precedent that the rest of the country gets ruined on. I don't trust any place that doesn't let me pump my own gas though.
03-11-2008, 09:06 AM
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thats wierd because i really havent noticed a difference. I really dont figure every tank of gas anyways so i guess I could be overlooking it. Im sure that there isnt any performance gain or loss though
03-11-2008, 09:15 AM
#9
In MN they have a 10% blend as well. There is a station near my house that sells 91 octane with no ethanol in it. There is a sticker on it that says it is for mowers and 4x4 off road vehicles or something. Is that just BS they have to put there because of some law? Should I be buying that over 91 with ethanol?
03-11-2008, 09:51 AM
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yeah leaded fuel is a big no no, I dont know why they would sell a 91 octane leaded though, usually down here in florida, the only leaded stuff you get is race gas, like 116 octane or something. thats not at a pump either, you have to buy it from a performance shop
03-11-2008, 11:09 AM
#13
Exactly RG. In fact running e85 you need almost twice the volume of gasoline.
We've been 10% ethanol for quite some time and there're plans afoot to move to 20%.
Marine users aren't happy as Ethanol is NOT compatible with fiberglass and can also disintegrate some plastic, and rubber engine parts.
We've been 10% ethanol for quite some time and there're plans afoot to move to 20%.
Marine users aren't happy as Ethanol is NOT compatible with fiberglass and can also disintegrate some plastic, and rubber engine parts.
10% ethanol is pretty standard in many parts of the country. It's all you can get here. As stated above it is around 110 octane. Keep in mind that if you 87 octane gas has 10% ethanol in it, that doesn't it's not still 87 octane. It is.
Ethanol has a much richer stoich a/f ratio than gasoline which means you need alot more just to get to the proper a/f ratios. On top of this ethanol has fewer btu's than gasoline. It takes more of it to get the same mileage as gasoline. Alot more of it. Ethanol as used on a naturally aspirated engine will cause you to LOSE power. You will not gain. In order to overcome this you would need to raise the compression ratio significantly and retune the engine. While possible on a piston engine, this isn't going to happen on a rotary.
Power on forced inducted engines is different. They can get a gain in power as the higher octane of ethanol can allow them to run more boost and more aggressive timing. The cooling benefits of ethanol also contribute to forced induction power gain.
Keep in mind you will never increase your gas mileage with ethanol and will always lose. Even a nice power gain with forced induction will come at the expense of 30% less fuel economy. All of the above applies to straight ethanol. A 10% blend isn't anything to get excited about. Mileage will not vary appreciably (a very small amount if any at all) and power won't increase at all. Resistance to knock is also going to be no different than on 100% gasoline as the octane of the fuel isn't changing. A 10% blend is pretty worthless and is nothing more than flawed environmentalist logic that has gotten us to use it.
I'm surprised Oregon hasn't been using this already. Usually the west coast sets the precedent that the rest of the country gets ruined on. I don't trust any place that doesn't let me pump my own gas though.
Ethanol has a much richer stoich a/f ratio than gasoline which means you need alot more just to get to the proper a/f ratios. On top of this ethanol has fewer btu's than gasoline. It takes more of it to get the same mileage as gasoline. Alot more of it. Ethanol as used on a naturally aspirated engine will cause you to LOSE power. You will not gain. In order to overcome this you would need to raise the compression ratio significantly and retune the engine. While possible on a piston engine, this isn't going to happen on a rotary.
Power on forced inducted engines is different. They can get a gain in power as the higher octane of ethanol can allow them to run more boost and more aggressive timing. The cooling benefits of ethanol also contribute to forced induction power gain.
Keep in mind you will never increase your gas mileage with ethanol and will always lose. Even a nice power gain with forced induction will come at the expense of 30% less fuel economy. All of the above applies to straight ethanol. A 10% blend isn't anything to get excited about. Mileage will not vary appreciably (a very small amount if any at all) and power won't increase at all. Resistance to knock is also going to be no different than on 100% gasoline as the octane of the fuel isn't changing. A 10% blend is pretty worthless and is nothing more than flawed environmentalist logic that has gotten us to use it.
I'm surprised Oregon hasn't been using this already. Usually the west coast sets the precedent that the rest of the country gets ruined on. I don't trust any place that doesn't let me pump my own gas though.
03-11-2008, 11:23 AM
#14
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Exactly RG. In fact running e85 you need almost twice the volume of gasoline.
We've been 10% ethanol for quite some time and there're plans afoot to move to 20%.
Marine users aren't happy as Ethanol is NOT compatible with fiberglass and can also disintegrate some plastic, and rubber engine parts.
We've been 10% ethanol for quite some time and there're plans afoot to move to 20%.
Marine users aren't happy as Ethanol is NOT compatible with fiberglass and can also disintegrate some plastic, and rubber engine parts.
03-11-2008, 11:35 AM
#15
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we have 10% in winter. this will be making us use winter fuel all year. there is a decided loss of mpg. at least 2 mpg drop. in order for ethanol to be used without a loss in mpg you have to up the compression to diesel ranges.
03-11-2008, 11:36 AM
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03-11-2008, 11:37 AM
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03-11-2008, 03:20 PM
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Are you serious? you do realize that diesels are in the 20+:1 range for compression? just 10% of your fuel being ethanol, Im willing to be my car that you will not see any significant drop in your mpg and you will not feel a difference in power, for the better or worse. As I said before, down here in tampa we have several station running the 10% ethanol and I have not noticed any difference in my integra, or my rx8. **** the integra has been getting close to 30mpg lately now that I keep my foot out of it.
03-11-2008, 03:34 PM
#25
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two things
first- i have 4 years of winters with this car and oxygenated fuel. as soon as the 10% hits the pumps i go from 17-18mpg to 15-16mpg.
second- my remark about raising the compression is about information and studies i have been reading lately regarding mpg and ethanol fuels.
most studies have shown losses in mpg with the use of e10 and e85 vs normal unleaded fuel. over the last 5 years the epa and others have done studies with high compression spark ignited motors and e85. the results show that if compression is raised to 15 or higher(e100 can be run with compressions as high as 19.5)increase of around 30% are realized.
so e10 in normal compression piston and rotary engines lowers the mpg. but that loss can be over come and more power be had if its used in high compression engines that are designed for it.
first- i have 4 years of winters with this car and oxygenated fuel. as soon as the 10% hits the pumps i go from 17-18mpg to 15-16mpg.
second- my remark about raising the compression is about information and studies i have been reading lately regarding mpg and ethanol fuels.
most studies have shown losses in mpg with the use of e10 and e85 vs normal unleaded fuel. over the last 5 years the epa and others have done studies with high compression spark ignited motors and e85. the results show that if compression is raised to 15 or higher(e100 can be run with compressions as high as 19.5)increase of around 30% are realized.
so e10 in normal compression piston and rotary engines lowers the mpg. but that loss can be over come and more power be had if its used in high compression engines that are designed for it.