New coating for engine internals?
Thread Starter
Doppelgänger
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Florida
New coating for engine internals?
Self lubricating and almost as hard as diamond? cha ching!
The "ceramic alloy" is created by combining a metal alloy of boron, aluminium and magnesium (AlMgB14) with titanium boride (TiB2). It is the hardest material after diamond and cubic boron nitride.
BAM, as the material is called, was discovered at the US Department of Energy Ames Laboratory in Iowa in 199, during attempts to develop a substance to generate electricity when heated.
BAM is much slipperier than Teflon, with a coefficient of friction of .02 compared to .05. Lubricated steel has a friction coefficient of 0.16.
Bruce Cook, lead investigator on the Ames Lab project, estimates that merely coating rotors with the material could save US industry alone 330 trillion kilojoules (9 billion kilowatt hours) every year by 2030 - about $179 million a year.
BAM is also potentially attractive as a hard coating for drill bits and other cutting tools. Diamond is commonly used for this, and is harder, but it reacts chemically with steel and so degrades relatively quickly when used to cut the metal.
By contrast, BAM is cheaper and does not degrade when used with steel.
The exact reason for the new material's characteristics is still unclear, Russell told New Scientist. Most superhard materials, such as diamond, have a simple, regular and symmetrical crystalline structure. But BAM is complex, unsymmetrical, and its lattice contains gaps, none of which would be expected in a hard material.
Its slipperiness is also not entirely understood. Although Russell says the best theory is that the boron interacts with oxygen to make tiny amounts of boron oxide on its surface. They would attract water molecules from the air, to make a slippery coating.
"It's almost as if it's a self-lubricating surface. You don't need to add oil or other lubricants. It's inherently slippery," he says.
Rest @ http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-accident.html
BAM, as the material is called, was discovered at the US Department of Energy Ames Laboratory in Iowa in 199, during attempts to develop a substance to generate electricity when heated.
BAM is much slipperier than Teflon, with a coefficient of friction of .02 compared to .05. Lubricated steel has a friction coefficient of 0.16.
Bruce Cook, lead investigator on the Ames Lab project, estimates that merely coating rotors with the material could save US industry alone 330 trillion kilojoules (9 billion kilowatt hours) every year by 2030 - about $179 million a year.
BAM is also potentially attractive as a hard coating for drill bits and other cutting tools. Diamond is commonly used for this, and is harder, but it reacts chemically with steel and so degrades relatively quickly when used to cut the metal.
By contrast, BAM is cheaper and does not degrade when used with steel.
The exact reason for the new material's characteristics is still unclear, Russell told New Scientist. Most superhard materials, such as diamond, have a simple, regular and symmetrical crystalline structure. But BAM is complex, unsymmetrical, and its lattice contains gaps, none of which would be expected in a hard material.
Its slipperiness is also not entirely understood. Although Russell says the best theory is that the boron interacts with oxygen to make tiny amounts of boron oxide on its surface. They would attract water molecules from the air, to make a slippery coating.
"It's almost as if it's a self-lubricating surface. You don't need to add oil or other lubricants. It's inherently slippery," he says.
Rest @ http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-accident.html
Registered
Joined: Oct 2008
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From: whitehall, MI
to my understanding it needs oxygen to have oxidized slippery coating...metals oxidize the best with presens of H2O, which is in the air in the form of humidity. As far as i know ... rotary is still using air for its combustion.
Thread Starter
Doppelgänger
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Florida
ಠ_ಠ
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Under the Dumbarton Bridge
BAM!
Well, seeing as one of the byproducts of combustion is water, I don't think that finding water in an engine is going to be a big deal. Especially if we're moving to hydrogen power in the future.
It certainly seems like a promising material. but there's no way to tell if it would make a good apex seal from this article.
Well, seeing as one of the byproducts of combustion is water, I don't think that finding water in an engine is going to be a big deal. Especially if we're moving to hydrogen power in the future.
It certainly seems like a promising material. but there's no way to tell if it would make a good apex seal from this article.
Are there dry enough climates that could potentially not provide enough water? I know it didnt really cover a required amount, but still would be a concern... at least to any company that decided to use that or anyone who would go out and pay for that coating privately that might live in a dry enough climate...
BAM!
Well, seeing as one of the byproducts of combustion is water, I don't think that finding water in an engine is going to be a big deal. Especially if we're moving to hydrogen power in the future.
It certainly seems like a promising material. but there's no way to tell if it would make a good apex seal from this article.
Well, seeing as one of the byproducts of combustion is water, I don't think that finding water in an engine is going to be a big deal. Especially if we're moving to hydrogen power in the future.
It certainly seems like a promising material. but there's no way to tell if it would make a good apex seal from this article.
alright so, whose going to be the first to volunteer having their engine stripped down and the parts sent to be coated with this stuff?
i know i'd be interested in it if it wasnt too expensive.
i know i'd be interested in it if it wasnt too expensive.
Drop it into 3rd
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: Chicago
Drop it into 3rd
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 462
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From: Chicago
I am thinking to do that to my upcoming new, yes I repeat, NEW engine for my FC, Gonna buy all new parts, then send it off to them to do the Cermet coating, have them or someone build it, and install it back to the car on my own.
Its gonna be expensive tho, meh.
be the first to use something like this on the street OLD car sounds interesting ....
Its gonna be expensive tho, meh.
be the first to use something like this on the street OLD car sounds interesting ....
I am thinking to do that to my upcoming new, yes I repeat, NEW engine for my FC, Gonna buy all new parts, then send it off to them to do the Cermet coating, have them or someone build it, and install it back to the car on my own.
Its gonna be expensive tho, meh. be the first to use something like this on the street OLD car sounds interesting ....
Its gonna be expensive tho, meh.
be the first to use something like this on the street OLD car sounds interesting ....
kevin@rotaryresurrection
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,415
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From: east of Knoxville, TN
I was somewhat skeptical of their claims when they first brought it to
market, because, hey...noone had ever done this before, and this was just a
startup operation from the best I could tell. However as they were the only
reman option and cheaper than new OEM with promise of better performance, I
decided to give it a try. At the time, Marc, the owner, told me that they
were in the process of using core housings that they had obtained, for
resurfacing, and would be building their inventory up over time for
exchange. However if I wanted a faster turnaround, he said I should send my
own cores in (which didnt necessarily make sense to me...if they had cores
already, but couldn't resurface them in a timely manner, how would having my
cores help them any?), so I agreed and sent in a batch.
From that point, you can read this thread and get pretty much my entire
history with them: http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=608589 I
strongly suggest you read the entire thread.
The only other issues to note. The only way I was able to kick them into
gear at the end of 2006, was by filing a paypal/creditcard chargeback
against them. This put a hold on their account and screwed up their future
of collecting more money from other customers, it got Marc's attention
REALLY quick and netted a few immediate phone calls, emails, and
voicemails....after no regular contact had been forthcoming.
Another interesting note that just came to light recently. I obtained a core
engine from a car in my area, that was getting a non-turbo to turbo engine
swap. The non turbo engine was said to be "blown" and was removed for a JDM
turbo engine, and I bought the non turbo core for parts.
When I tore it down, I discovered that it was actually one of my engines
from years prior (about mid 2005 from what I can tell) and was built with
the JHB cermet B housings. It was technically "blown" in that the apex seals
were worn down to almost nothing, and in a very odd manner. I have never, in
hundreds of rotary engine teardowns, seen wear such as this. The engine
couldn't have had more than 30-50k miles on it, but the seals were 85% worn
away. Normally I see 20-40% wear on seals, on 100-200k mile engines. This
was extreme wear, but only on the apex seals. The side/corner/oil seals were
all perfect. Atkins apex seals were used in that build...I have used those
seals in hundreds of other builds with great longevity and results.
Thus my theory is that the cermet coating is not suitable for any standard
steel apex seal (including oem mazda), and because the seal is much softer
than the housing with the cermet coating it will wear at many times the
normal rate. Then if you conclude that in order to use these cermet
housings, you need to use ceramic seals, suddenly they lose their appeal
because such a build requires a $5k budget.
IT should be noted that I specifically discussed with Marc, prior to purchasing any
of his ceramic housings, the need for ceramic seals versus standard steel seals.
He assured me that his housings would work fine with standard seals, of course
ceramic seals would net more of a power gain, but said their testing revealed no
issues with the use of steel seals and their housings.
Marc is a great representative for his company and always very courteous,
but he's also a smooth talker and will do anything to keep you on the hook.
Last edited by RotaryResurrection; Mar 2, 2010 at 12:29 PM.
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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Posts: 1,415
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From: east of Knoxville, TN
kevin@rotaryresurrection
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,415
Likes: 61
From: east of Knoxville, TN
No, unfortunately. You may go over to rx7club and read some of "glassman"s posts detailing his attempt to grind and recoat rotor housings, which has been ongoing since the beginning of time NS shows no promise of ever being complete, much less feasible.
As for cermet, the product itself shows promise but will take a lot of trial and error to figure out it's behavior in this engine...I had my fill of being a guinea pig...do you want to fill that role? That is basically what happens anytime a new product is brought to market for these engines. Nobody that develops new things has the time or budget to thoroughly R&D what they are making due to the niche nature of this market and the lack of corporate backing, so most parts have no more than just a few weeks or months of testing in a handful of test engines.
I think the product shows promise for certain situations, but their execution of it blows goats. Further I think it is not really a feasible application for 95% of those building rotary engines...that is, on a budget less than $3k.
As for cermet, the product itself shows promise but will take a lot of trial and error to figure out it's behavior in this engine...I had my fill of being a guinea pig...do you want to fill that role? That is basically what happens anytime a new product is brought to market for these engines. Nobody that develops new things has the time or budget to thoroughly R&D what they are making due to the niche nature of this market and the lack of corporate backing, so most parts have no more than just a few weeks or months of testing in a handful of test engines.
I think the product shows promise for certain situations, but their execution of it blows goats. Further I think it is not really a feasible application for 95% of those building rotary engines...that is, on a budget less than $3k.