New Bimmer 5 Series Vs. RX-8
05-06-2003, 07:31 AM
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New Bimmer 5 Series Vs. RX-8
For the last couple of nights I've read and re-read
the description of variable ratio steering and Dynamic Drive
that are supposed to make, along with a lot of other things,
this next 5 amazingly like a sports car.
I think the anticipation of the RX-8 has changed the way
I view the applaudable approach that BMW engineering takes.
I don't think combing an executive car with a sports car
is right anymore. Or, to be more exact, I don't think,
even if it is right, that it offers good value engineering.
If I'm correct, once you get beyond image, the most pleasure
for the least bucks by a longshot will be the RX-8. And
after a 3 hour drive, I'm hopeful the back seat passengers
can be as refreshed as those back seat 5 Series passengers.
(not from a space perspective but from a ride perspective).
Is this last sentence expecting too much?
the description of variable ratio steering and Dynamic Drive
that are supposed to make, along with a lot of other things,
this next 5 amazingly like a sports car.
I think the anticipation of the RX-8 has changed the way
I view the applaudable approach that BMW engineering takes.
I don't think combing an executive car with a sports car
is right anymore. Or, to be more exact, I don't think,
even if it is right, that it offers good value engineering.
If I'm correct, once you get beyond image, the most pleasure
for the least bucks by a longshot will be the RX-8. And
after a 3 hour drive, I'm hopeful the back seat passengers
can be as refreshed as those back seat 5 Series passengers.
(not from a space perspective but from a ride perspective).
Is this last sentence expecting too much?
05-06-2003, 08:33 AM
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In the interest of full disclosure, I currently own a BMW (specifically, a '97 328is).
I think it's important to remember that we're comparing a relatively unknown quantity (the RX-8 has only been tested in pre-production form by the mags) with a completely unknown quantity (the new 5 series). That said, said tests indicate that the RX-8 is less "refined" (defining refined for purposes of this discussion as low noise level and a well controlled but not stiff or jiggly ride) than the G35 or the 3 series BMW. This suggests that it has no hope of comparing with the new 5 in the refinement department. Of course, you could argue that it shouldn't reasonably be expected to - it's a $30k car, and the 5 will be $50k.
I don't understand or agree with your argument that attempting to make a large sedan handle like a sports car is somehow a misuse of engineering resources. The way that BMW has managed to combine responsive handling with a quiet, comfortable ride and more traditional "luxury" appointments is exactly the reason that they enjoy the reputation they do today.
As in most things in life, it's all down to compromising your desires against your resources - if you have $30k to spend and want a capable sports car with a back seat, and are willing to make some sacrifices in terms of noise level and ride comfort, you'll likely buy an RX-8. If you have $50k to spend and are willing to give up some measure of handling precision in return for more space, a more refined ride, and a higher level of luxury, you'll likely buy the new 5. Horses for courses.
I think it's important to remember that we're comparing a relatively unknown quantity (the RX-8 has only been tested in pre-production form by the mags) with a completely unknown quantity (the new 5 series). That said, said tests indicate that the RX-8 is less "refined" (defining refined for purposes of this discussion as low noise level and a well controlled but not stiff or jiggly ride) than the G35 or the 3 series BMW. This suggests that it has no hope of comparing with the new 5 in the refinement department. Of course, you could argue that it shouldn't reasonably be expected to - it's a $30k car, and the 5 will be $50k.
I don't understand or agree with your argument that attempting to make a large sedan handle like a sports car is somehow a misuse of engineering resources. The way that BMW has managed to combine responsive handling with a quiet, comfortable ride and more traditional "luxury" appointments is exactly the reason that they enjoy the reputation they do today.
As in most things in life, it's all down to compromising your desires against your resources - if you have $30k to spend and want a capable sports car with a back seat, and are willing to make some sacrifices in terms of noise level and ride comfort, you'll likely buy an RX-8. If you have $50k to spend and are willing to give up some measure of handling precision in return for more space, a more refined ride, and a higher level of luxury, you'll likely buy the new 5. Horses for courses.
05-06-2003, 10:20 AM
#3
Originally posted by welles
- if you have $30k to spend and want a capable sports car with a back seat, and are willing to make some sacrifices in terms of noise level and ride comfort, you'll likely buy an RX-8. If you have $50k to spend and are willing to give up some measure of handling precision in return for more space, a more refined ride, and a higher level of luxury, you'll likely buy the new 5. Horses for courses.
- if you have $30k to spend and want a capable sports car with a back seat, and are willing to make some sacrifices in terms of noise level and ride comfort, you'll likely buy an RX-8. If you have $50k to spend and are willing to give up some measure of handling precision in return for more space, a more refined ride, and a higher level of luxury, you'll likely buy the new 5. Horses for courses.
05-06-2003, 11:23 AM
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Hey Guys and Ladies!!
I have to put my 2 cents here, in my opinion as a BMW fan and a very excited owner to be of RX8 the two cars are 2 pieces of a complete whole and they both are a must, 5 series the best sedan made to date that combines luxury, handling, reliability and value, RX8 a wonderful sports car with an innovative engine and wonderful handling.
My plan is get RX8 in July and order the five series for the wife next year hahaha:D :D :D
I have to put my 2 cents here, in my opinion as a BMW fan and a very excited owner to be of RX8 the two cars are 2 pieces of a complete whole and they both are a must, 5 series the best sedan made to date that combines luxury, handling, reliability and value, RX8 a wonderful sports car with an innovative engine and wonderful handling.
My plan is get RX8 in July and order the five series for the wife next year hahaha:D :D :D
05-06-2003, 04:51 PM
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The Germans make the best engines and the best quality cars, the Italians make the best handling cars and the best looking cars (there is nothing that can beat the looks of a Ferrari or a Lambo), the French make the sexiest, the British make the most snobbish, the Americans make big cars!
The Japanese make the most reliable. They also have made cars that look like kitchen appliances. Boring. That used to be the case and things have changed with the RX8 and 350Z.
The RX8 is a wonderful car. The looks and the performance made me buy one and I can;t wait for it to be delivered. In this world, BMW is the best sports sedan, Porsche the best performance, Merc, the best retirement car, Rolls, the most snobbish, Renault the sexiest, Lambo, simply orgasmic!
But for an average man in an average middlleclass world, the Mazda gives me the best of all, performance, space, looks and something different!
I can't trade my wife in, but I certainly can trade my car in. For me, the RX8 is it!
The Japanese make the most reliable. They also have made cars that look like kitchen appliances. Boring. That used to be the case and things have changed with the RX8 and 350Z.
The RX8 is a wonderful car. The looks and the performance made me buy one and I can;t wait for it to be delivered. In this world, BMW is the best sports sedan, Porsche the best performance, Merc, the best retirement car, Rolls, the most snobbish, Renault the sexiest, Lambo, simply orgasmic!
But for an average man in an average middlleclass world, the Mazda gives me the best of all, performance, space, looks and something different!
I can't trade my wife in, but I certainly can trade my car in. For me, the RX8 is it!
05-06-2003, 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by welles
if you have $30k to spend and want a capable sports car with a back seat, and are willing to make some sacrifices in terms of noise level and ride comfort, you'll likely buy an RX-8. If you have $50k to spend and are willing to give up some measure of handling precision in return for more space, a more refined ride, and a higher level of luxury, you'll likely buy the new 5. Horses for courses.
if you have $30k to spend and want a capable sports car with a back seat, and are willing to make some sacrifices in terms of noise level and ride comfort, you'll likely buy an RX-8. If you have $50k to spend and are willing to give up some measure of handling precision in return for more space, a more refined ride, and a higher level of luxury, you'll likely buy the new 5. Horses for courses.
05-06-2003, 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by ed hall
The Germans make the best engines and the best quality cars, the Italians make the best handling cars and the best looking cars (there is nothing that can beat the looks of a Ferrari or a Lambo), the French make the sexiest, the British make the most snobbish, the Americans make big cars!
The Japanese make the most reliable. They also have made cars that look like kitchen appliances. Boring. That used to be the case and things have changed with the RX8 and 350Z.
The RX8 is a wonderful car. The looks and the performance made me buy one and I can;t wait for it to be delivered. In this world, BMW is the best sports sedan, Porsche the best performance, Merc, the best retirement car, Rolls, the most snobbish, Renault the sexiest, Lambo, simply orgasmic!
The Germans make the best engines and the best quality cars, the Italians make the best handling cars and the best looking cars (there is nothing that can beat the looks of a Ferrari or a Lambo), the French make the sexiest, the British make the most snobbish, the Americans make big cars!
The Japanese make the most reliable. They also have made cars that look like kitchen appliances. Boring. That used to be the case and things have changed with the RX8 and 350Z.
The RX8 is a wonderful car. The looks and the performance made me buy one and I can;t wait for it to be delivered. In this world, BMW is the best sports sedan, Porsche the best performance, Merc, the best retirement car, Rolls, the most snobbish, Renault the sexiest, Lambo, simply orgasmic!
05-06-2003, 09:58 PM
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Someone far more astute than me posted a comment on this board a long time ago that I think has a great deal of relevence. I can't come close a direct quote, but it went something like the following: The RX-8's weight is a topic of great interest here, while virtually no BMW owner - even the enthusiasts - cares one whit about the weight of the new BMWs that are coming out. If you lurk on the BMW forums, you won't find 1/10th the discussion of weight that you'll find here. That's not the point of a BMW. BMWs combine luxury with a surprisingly high level of performance. The RX-8 won't - and absolutly should not - have anywhere near that level of luxury. Luxury items add weight and cost, while most of the concern here about the RX-8 is about performance and value. Of course there must be some balance, Mazda couldn't eliminate the A/C and radio for example, but they can't add 100 lbs. of sound deadening either. It would hurt the performance and add to the price.
I highly doubt anyone will cross-shop the RX-8 and the BMW 5-series.
I highly doubt anyone will cross-shop the RX-8 and the BMW 5-series.
Last edited by Rich; 05-06-2003 at 10:01 PM.
05-07-2003, 02:05 AM
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If the interior sound level (db's) are the same for both cars,
then this truly would be a paradigm shift in value engineering.
While the front section of the 5 has gone totally aluminum,
I'm sure sound deadening is good. But I'll repeat Mazda's
six technologies gleaned from Press Kit:
1.)straight-line (from top and side) power train with no floor mount for carbon drive shaft.
2.)mode control panels on bottom
3.)lengthened eng. & diff. mount shafts
4.)6 rubber mount, zero compliance rear sub-frame, combined
with 5 link (extra long) suspension, AND front sub-frame
5.)extremely (beats same wb. vehicles) rigid body on 106"
wheelbase
6.)first time RENESIS use of counter rotating gear & dynamic balanced rotors. (EAST MOON noted noise of A/C due to quietness of RENESSIS & engine cabin lack of vibrations).
No doubt on the Luxury issue, RX-8 to be defeated.
But I'm talking "value engineering" not Luxury.
BMW lovers, Hold On To Your Hats!
then this truly would be a paradigm shift in value engineering.
While the front section of the 5 has gone totally aluminum,
I'm sure sound deadening is good. But I'll repeat Mazda's
six technologies gleaned from Press Kit:
1.)straight-line (from top and side) power train with no floor mount for carbon drive shaft.
2.)mode control panels on bottom
3.)lengthened eng. & diff. mount shafts
4.)6 rubber mount, zero compliance rear sub-frame, combined
with 5 link (extra long) suspension, AND front sub-frame
5.)extremely (beats same wb. vehicles) rigid body on 106"
wheelbase
6.)first time RENESIS use of counter rotating gear & dynamic balanced rotors. (EAST MOON noted noise of A/C due to quietness of RENESSIS & engine cabin lack of vibrations).
No doubt on the Luxury issue, RX-8 to be defeated.
But I'm talking "value engineering" not Luxury.
BMW lovers, Hold On To Your Hats!
05-07-2003, 05:48 AM
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Originally posted by ed hall
The Germans make the best engines and the best quality cars, the Italians make the best handling cars and the best looking cars (there is nothing that can beat the looks of a Ferrari or a Lambo), the French make the sexiest, the British make the most snobbish, the Americans make big cars!
The Japanese make the most reliable. They also have made cars that look like kitchen appliances. Boring. That used to be the case and things have changed with the RX8 and 350Z.
The Germans make the best engines and the best quality cars, the Italians make the best handling cars and the best looking cars (there is nothing that can beat the looks of a Ferrari or a Lambo), the French make the sexiest, the British make the most snobbish, the Americans make big cars!
The Japanese make the most reliable. They also have made cars that look like kitchen appliances. Boring. That used to be the case and things have changed with the RX8 and 350Z.
BMW makes very good engines. So does Honda and Jaguar. Do MB? Nope.
05-08-2003, 03:07 PM
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I know I'm guilty of stereotyping, but in defence, cars are their own victims of their own past and how you and I perceive them matter when you and I drive them and own them...and ofcourse opinions form about their makers and the country they are made in. I think Japanese, I think Toyota. Brilliant reliability, easy driving, it will last forever and its cheap to keep and maintain. Solid cars. But I'm sorry it still looks like my washing machine. Lets face it, its a box on wheels! Japanese sports cars are different though - you win! And I'm sure you will agree that the RX8 has reinforced the ability and the creative brilliance of Mazda. It's also about time too - they seem to be back on track.
And my teeth are fine - slightly yellowish grey and a few missing...
Lets get back to the BMW thing. Yes, they're great cars and in any accident I would rather be in a BMW than anything else on the road today. More importantly, as a drivers machine, there is nothing that can match a BMW. I feel safe in a BMW. But there is one proplem now - and his name is Chris Bangle and he alone is solely responsible for the new 7's ugliness. The new 5 is not too bad, but i need to see it in the flesh. The Z4 is a beauty. This 'flame surfacing' look he is relentlessly applying to all new designs and shapes of all future beemers is going to take alot of getting used to. The aggressiveness in its design has been lost.
I had a choice : RX8 or a BMW 325Ci. I chose the RX8. Point for point, its a better car.
And my teeth are fine - slightly yellowish grey and a few missing...
Lets get back to the BMW thing. Yes, they're great cars and in any accident I would rather be in a BMW than anything else on the road today. More importantly, as a drivers machine, there is nothing that can match a BMW. I feel safe in a BMW. But there is one proplem now - and his name is Chris Bangle and he alone is solely responsible for the new 7's ugliness. The new 5 is not too bad, but i need to see it in the flesh. The Z4 is a beauty. This 'flame surfacing' look he is relentlessly applying to all new designs and shapes of all future beemers is going to take alot of getting used to. The aggressiveness in its design has been lost.
I had a choice : RX8 or a BMW 325Ci. I chose the RX8. Point for point, its a better car.
05-10-2003, 04:31 AM
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Here are six more Mazda Chassis technologies to deliver
an extremely quiet cabin:
7.)improved ride and comfort comes from bushings/ball joints
fitted with a sleeve that is integrated with the inner pipe
of the new zero stopper rubber.
8.)gas filled dampers--large diam./larger hydraulic fluid duct
(port area) with damper lever ratio raised.
9.)Front sub frame given a closed square structure and transverse member provide 8 rigid mounting location for the car body.
10.)PPF (Pwr Plant Frame) from transmission to differential
has dynamic dampers and closed section structure.
11.)Crossmembers near front suspension installation area plus
crossmember joining front suspension towers strengthens the front damper supports.
12.)V-shaped diagonal braced from backbone to rear damper top mounts.
13.)Extensive CAE studies to reduce transmission of vibrations from suspension to car body.
14.)flywheel at RENESIS engine reduced by 20% weight.
You will no doubt start hearing about quietness from our first full-production market--Japan, shortly.
an extremely quiet cabin:
7.)improved ride and comfort comes from bushings/ball joints
fitted with a sleeve that is integrated with the inner pipe
of the new zero stopper rubber.
8.)gas filled dampers--large diam./larger hydraulic fluid duct
(port area) with damper lever ratio raised.
9.)Front sub frame given a closed square structure and transverse member provide 8 rigid mounting location for the car body.
10.)PPF (Pwr Plant Frame) from transmission to differential
has dynamic dampers and closed section structure.
11.)Crossmembers near front suspension installation area plus
crossmember joining front suspension towers strengthens the front damper supports.
12.)V-shaped diagonal braced from backbone to rear damper top mounts.
13.)Extensive CAE studies to reduce transmission of vibrations from suspension to car body.
14.)flywheel at RENESIS engine reduced by 20% weight.
You will no doubt start hearing about quietness from our first full-production market--Japan, shortly.
05-11-2003, 12:43 AM
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Originally posted by gord boyd
My car is 1985 911 Turbo (930 Euro with 23 K kms) for my re-patriating this summer
and then waiting for RX-8.
My car is 1985 911 Turbo (930 Euro with 23 K kms) for my re-patriating this summer
and then waiting for RX-8.
05-11-2003, 12:49 AM
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Originally posted by Rich
I highly doubt anyone will cross-shop the RX-8 and the BMW 5-series.
I highly doubt anyone will cross-shop the RX-8 and the BMW 5-series.
05-12-2003, 05:49 AM
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Comments from JSG on my side of debate:
"Summary (day 1): easy to drive, fun, powerful, luxurious, comfortable"
RENESIS vs. VTEC "seems to come more smoothly and in more stages"
"The 8 inspires confidence"
"At night the Red glow is really good"
"next to a new Merc E430 and the 8 makes that look slow"
Handling "rock solid but not uncomfortable"
Keep them coming JSG!
"Summary (day 1): easy to drive, fun, powerful, luxurious, comfortable"
RENESIS vs. VTEC "seems to come more smoothly and in more stages"
"The 8 inspires confidence"
"At night the Red glow is really good"
"next to a new Merc E430 and the 8 makes that look slow"
Handling "rock solid but not uncomfortable"
Keep them coming JSG!
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