Christopher

Sad to say but it looks like I've answered my own question.

There's a bit of info about a future 250kw (335hp) Turbo RX-8 that could come out around 2004. http://auto.ascii24.com/auto24/e/200...999_21.html?sm

wakeech

aging?? AGING?? he called the 3rd gen RX-7 aging?? gimme a break...
and on top of it, this goof ball is (as far too many do) lines up the 8 against the new Z... jeez... (in reference to Christopher's linked article...)

nice find, but i really doubt the turbo would make its way into production 8s... the reason is it'd just be way too expensive to sell... okay, maybe they'd get MAZDASPEED to contract a kit, make 1500 or something for 2004, but there's no way that they'd make it an option... it'd be suicide (thinking that would be a $5-$6K option)
for the 7?? sure, i could see that easily... it's almost obvious... but this article states a new 7 for 2004, which is a year earlier than someone else sourced it from "an insider"... hope that this guy is right!!

wakeech

hey, the guy who wrote this article is a goof!! the 3rd gen RX-7 aging??? NO WAY!! well... maybe a bit... but no one would say that about the NSX (before the new one came out this year...)

also, i really don't think the turbo 8 would be a production car, or have the engine as a factory option... suicide, it'd never sell to offset the cost (considering it'd be at least a $5K or $6K option... and FOR SURE $4K if that's the only one they produced...)
now, i could see MAZDASPEED making a limited edition, contracting out whomever to design the kit, and build 1000-2000 (obviously depending on how sales go next spring) for 2004...
oh, another neat thing about that article... the RX-7 for production in 2004?? i hope he's right!! it could use that turbo RENESIS...

zoom44

don't believe most of that article. it's @ a year old. he smostly speculating. what was that comment about the "barn-like" doors not being definened enough? i thought that was the point. looks like a coupe but is actually a four door.

giorgio

i don't know anything more than what's in discussion here,but the few articles i read from a year back [mags/net] mention a 335hp version to appear later,but no real info besides that.So did they about an 180-200hp version,for EU at least,due to appear appear in '04.
Japs aren't like the Germans for sure.If they where,we would have known Everything 2 yrs prior to the presentation for sure...

zoom44

if they want to make a higher power version why not just make a bigger engine? this one is 1.3l and makes 250bhp. why not just make a 1.8l or 2.0l? i know the one argument i'm going to hear is "more weight" but turbos add weight and heat too. what are the other reasons. everybody knows the old saying " there is no replacement for displacement" or " the only thing better than cubic inches is more cubic inches". :D

PatrickB

One advantage of the turbo approach is that I'd imagine a turbo/super add-one would also be smaller and less expensive than another rotor assembly, in addition to the weight issues you've already mentioned.

rototlewski

Yeah I would love to see a larger displacment or another rotor (I would like another rotor added on more)

I know the 2.0L is possible the did do the R&D for a 20A in the 70's but they only made one and because of the fuel criss they stopped R&D on bigger engines altogather but as I can speculate this might have been the REPU's orignal powerplant but I have no proof they also had a 15A in development this was a widened 12A. they were 90mm wide while the 13B 80mm wide housings. The 20A was bigger in all dimensions. I would like to see a 15A renesis. The torqure was awesome from that thing.

zoom44

hey rototlewski- how's the humidity in hell these days?

and patrick how much more expensive could it be than any other company offering 4,6 and 8 cylinder piston engines? mazda is already putting 4s, 6s and the renesis in there cars so instead of an 8cyl just supersize the rotary. :D

Renesis Rex

im thinking about fuel consumption....

if they put a 3rd rotor on the renesis it would use 50% more fuel than the renesis 13b will. if they put a turbo on the rx-8, then it will keep the standard fuel consumption when not under boost.... thats the way i see it.

also, if you guys keep wondering why they compare the car to the new z.... well, i think i have an answer...

back in the day before the days of ricing out civics and moronic teenagers street racers going head to head on some damn silverscreen, there were the original import supercars. these main cars are simply the rx-7, the supra, the 300Z (atleast for us americans. some people were lucky enough to have cosmos and skylines and a few other badass rides....). well all those cars are no longer being made here in the states, so thats why the narket is being flooded with crap for civics and accords. wooooooo..... (not).... anyway back to my point: the 350Z is the first of the new supercars, basically. soon you will see all kinds of aftermarket parts for it. the rx-8 is next... followed by? well, maybe we'll see toyota release a supra sometime. on top of that, they're being released at near the same time frames.now thats what you call competetion.

so thats why i think the rx-8 is being compared to the 350Z.

any further input?

PatrickB

It would mean they'd have to tool up another production line, if I had to guess. You can't "just supersize" the engine and be done with it. The 6-cylinder they're using in the Mazda6 is a Ford engine, BTW, not a Mazda engine, so they avoid the R&D problems of a new engine. Bolting on a turbo may mean having to use higher-quality parts in the existing line at certain points, but that's very different from researching, developing, tuning,and building an entirely new engine. It's not simply a matter of bolting on another rotor and being done.

There's a reason that Nissan is so successful with their altima/maxima/G35/350Z/etc. engine - it saves them lots of money in development and production, money that they can turn around and plow into future developments. I'd be happy to see Mazda concentrate on doing the renesis right, and plowing the profits into new advancements in reliability and power for the rotary in general, as opposed to just spening a fortune making the same technology one step bigger.

As far as other companies having lots of different engines... Designing a new engine would be a large risk for Mazda, as the R&D costs would have to be made up for in increased sales. Do you really think in the current environemnt that a new 20A engine would sell enough to recoup the costs of developing it, without stealing sales from the 13A line (i.e., the RX-8, RX-8MPS, and RX-7)? Of course, this doesn't even mention the cost of researching the new car body, suspension, exhaust, etc. that would be required to hold this larger engine, and the certification costs. Of course, if a rotary revolution happened, things could be very different.

There may be no replacement for displacement in terms of pure performance, but from a financial perspective, it makes much more sense for Mazda to do the necessary things to boost the 250HP NA Renesis up to 300+BHP using turbochargers, improved parts, and better cooling. Developing a new engine is *expensive*. That's one of the things that's so amazing about Mazda investing the time in the Renesis.

If I had to guess, I'd bet we're more likely to see a hydrogen-powered Rotary out of Mazda before we see a 3-rotor. Now *that* would be cool.

applejax

Turbo BAD. All I've seen from turbos is an increase of problems.

applejax

The MR2 should be in this list...

ZoomZoom

IMHO the MR2 does not make it on that list.

PatrickB

Yeah, maybe so... Detonation and heat issues, right? I still doubt that 3-rotor is the way to go, though. Lots of other cars (WRX for example) have been very successful with turbos. Maybe Mazda can get the turbo right this time. A small turbo or super to boost low-end torque would probably be enough, and maybe not cause as many problems?

85RX7to03RX8

Good post everyone,
I just wanted to clarify a point, the 13B does not stand for 1.3L any more than the 12A stood for 1.2L (because it was 1.1L).

As far as the 20A, I've seen a street legal version of this vehicle in an RX7 while still maintaining the 50/50 weight balance. It requires movement of several components such as the radiator and battery. I would love to see a 20A RX-? but I agree Mazda (Ford) will not import one at the risk of canabilizing sales.

As to the heat issues with Turbo 13Bs, it's no different than any other rotary. The 3rd gen RX-7 was just so hastely lanched that Mazda did not do its homework. Remember the R1 option in '93 with the dual oil coolers. Not an option all RX-7s (although greatly needed). The issue with the 3rd Gen RX-7s was really more of an owner's issues. Most folks wanted this amazing supercar/daily driver yet really knew anything about a rotory engine (oil and heat issues).

Turbo charging the RX-8 would be the most cost effective option for both Mazda and the consumer. However expect to pay a premium when that option comes out.

Just my 2¢ worth....

-Mike

houstonRX8

I DON'T WANNA GROW UP, CAUSE I'M A TOYS R US KID!!!!!

MORE GAMES MORE TOYS OH BOY!!!!!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D

wakeech

ya ya, i know the old saying "You can NEVER have enough HP", but c'mon guys, i mean 255 would be enough to satisfy my desires for speed... well, only for a little while, after i forget how sucky the Echo and Matrix i drive are... :D

but seriously, a 350 HP RX-8??? that's a little wild... i mean, 333 HP M3 is considered by many to be on of those rare beasts (because it's atmoshperically aspirated, i know...), but even MORE?? in a lighter, stiffer car, with cooler doors and blah blah blah (just too much to say... )??? i dunno, but i'm not sure that Mazda wants to get into that M3-type niche market, super fast sedan thing...

anyway, that would steal a great engine from the future 7!! no!! they can't!! the 7 has to be way faster, in every way!! it HAS to... now 350 HP in a 7, okay, ya, that's a little impressive, but if the 8 had it too... well, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what would happen.
not only does the 7 need the greater amount of power, it ought to have performance head-and-shoulders above, so i'm not sure that i'd like the 8 to ever have more than 300 (but that number would be fine with me!! :D)

zoom44

in response to the hydrogen idea. how aboutanother alternative. how about a gas(or hydrogen)/electric ala honda. gas engine powers the rear and electrics drive the front adding another 100bhp without reducing gas milage?!

BlueAdept

The problem with hydrogen is that it burns VERY hot... I did hear a really cool idea where somone was suggesting using a rotary engine running on Hydrogen and water!... The fuel/air mixture was used in a lower quantity but mixed with water mist.

The result was that as the fuel burned, the water was turned into steam, which provided the force to push the rotor round! This method reduced the temperature of the engine dramatically while providing encouraging results in terms of power etc...

Effectively an internal combustion steam engine! Should have lots of torque eh?

PatrickB

And this electric engine with batteries would weigh nothing, and not take up any space, I imagine? Where can I get one of those?

zoom44

yes their would be an increase in weight but as far as space honda has managed to fit their system into a crx and a civic without losing useable space. the civic has about the same handling and acceleration and the insight has pretty could pickup as well. just a thought with the renesis being so small and light weight to begin with.

Grimace

250 HP is more than enough for me. When can you really tap all of your car's potential in daily driving without endangering others (or your license)?

PatrickB

Yes, but you were talking about it *adding* 100bhp. Honda cut down on the size of the gas engine dramatically to get it all into that space, and acceleration in that car *is* significantly worse. Numbers I've seen show it losing at least 1 second in the 0-60 versus the original gas-powered civic, with other sources saying almost 2 seconds slower.

This is perfectly acceptable for a Civic or Corolla or Sentra. It's *not* acceptable for a sportscar like the RX-8

wakeech

ya Blue, i hear ya man!! that IS a really cool idea... and i suppose it would have lots of torque, 'cause that's what the steam engines had, right?? but, i wonder how much... does anyone on the forum know how big the pressure changes in an air/hydrogen/water mist engine VS. air/gasoline engine?? that'd be cool to know...

also, i heard that because the different "stages" of a combustion cycle happen in physically different areas of the engine, overheating problems can easily be dealt with (with the proper coolant flow in the hot areas... and huge oil coolers... :D)