mazdryk

Im looking for the ultimate autocross car. I am choosing between the RX8, IMpreza STI, evo 8. The reason I am afraid to get the RX8 is that maybe a better version is coming out soon like the MPS version. The main concern is that the MPS version will have a turbo or something different in the engine. If the engine is the same but has something added like a chip or exhaust to make it better then i would get the rx8 right now. I just want the best car from mazda and if they release a new rx8 with more displacement or lighter rotors or some kind of major difference i would be pissed. I wish someone could confirm what the MPS would have? or any speculations? how about the impreza wrx sti?

Hercules

I wouldn't expect the MPS to come out any time soon. Maybe three years or so.

However keep in mind with autoxing, power isn't the main concern, which is why Miatas are often the champs of the race there with their measly horses.

The RX-8 is a lightweight agile car that should be tons of fun on the autox tracks.

m477

The best autocross car is the RX-8, no question about it. Out of the three it has

- lowest weight
- lowest center of gravity
- best suspension (double wishbone vs McStrut)
- lowest polar moment of inertia (best weight distribution)

These are the things that matter for auto-x. The next MPS car to come out will probably be the MPS Mazda6, and that's still at least a couple of years away....

evel333

I share your fear as well, but such is way when buying many things--the old adage where it's obsolete once you take it out of the box. I just keep telling myself that those newer and higher power versions, not to mention (hands together, praying) the return of the 7, won't see the light of day unless a considerable number of us purchase the 8 in the first place.

As for choosing one of the three: my vote is for the 8...just because. A little for the handling, a little for the styling, but mostly just because.

(^_^)

PUR NRG

What's your definition of ultimate? A Modified-class purpose built formula car with custom chassis and motorcycle engine that has never been street legal? A Prepared-class Porche GT2? A Super Stock BMW M3?

More realistically speaking of the three cars you mentioned I would rank the RX-8 last, EVO second and STi first.

RX-8: It will take a lot more than a chip to bump performance.
EVO: Mitsubishi's answer to the WRX's popularity. Too bad they had to drop hp to meet US emission standards.
STi: Subaru waited for Mitsubishi to release the EVO to counter the WRX before they released the STi to trump that. Driver controlled front/rear torque bias to 300 hp certianly sounds like an unbeatable combination.
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Salo

One thing you have to remember about racing (autocrossing, track, etc.) is that it's not the car that makes you go fast, you make the car go fast. There is no substitute for experience.

Also, It is hard to compare the three cars you mentioned since they will most likely not be in the same car class. The STi will most likely not be able to race in a stock class (ala M3 lightweight, BMW Z8) which will put it into some tough competition.

In the hands of an experienced driver, I would think that the STi would post the best track times out of the three.

atr_hugo

Wander out to the SCCA website for Solo II and see what tickles your fancy (and doesn't empty your pocketbook).

http://www.scca.com/amateur/solo2/index.html

Quick_lude

The best auto-x cars are usually the best handlers. Power has NOTHING to do with winning auto-x 95% of the time, it's driver skill and how well the car handles.
Personally I think a Miata is the best all around auto-x car, followed closely by a Honda CRX/Civic with the proper suspension/tire setup. I've also seen bigger american muscle cars do well too but this was at the hands of VERY experienced drivers.

Cylo

What about the MINI Cooper S?

Quick_lude

It should do well too imo... It's small and nimble. Basically any car that is quick to get around the cones will do well and are easier to drive for the newbies. More experienced drivers can handle the high power/torque rwd cars but it takes practice and skill.

PUR NRG

How do you know its polar moment? 50/50 weight distribution has nothing (well, very little) to do with polar moment of interia. A barbell is the classic example of bad polar moment yet it has 50/50 weight distribution. Do you know something more about the RX-8?
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PUR NRG

True but I think a nationals champion in a stock Honda Insight would be hard pressed to beat a one year rookie in a Porche GT2.

Then there's FWD vs RWD vs AWD and how differences in each affect driving style and proper line--assuming all other things like suspension and engine were equal, which they aren't. Throw in things like the M3's SMG II and it's hard to say what makes a clear cut winner in stock form.

Strangely enough I think the best way to become a good driver is to pick a class that has lots of entries and drive the car that's most predominant in that class. That way it's driving skill not money that determines how good you are. I also run street tires for that very same reason because slicks can cover up a multitude of driving sins.
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RedRotaryRocket

Looky here:
http://media.mazda.ch/dossiers/RX-8/...dynamics05.jpg

You can see that the RX-8 has lower polar moment of inertia than the RX-7, and the RX-7 was an excellent autocross car. I just wish we knew what "vehicle J", "vehicle E", and "vehicle L" were

More good general info can be found here:
http://media.mazda.ch/dossiers/RX-8/Photo-RX8-F.htm

Sputnik

I wouldn't base my decision on speculation, especially with some of the unfounded, way out stuff that you will occasionally see here.

As far as the "ultimate autocross car", you have to remember that SCCA cuts all of the cars into several different classes. Surely you don't think that the normal Protege' and the MPS Protege' are in the same class, do you? If Mazda comes out with a significantly upgraded MPS RX8, then it too would be put in a different class. In which case, you wouldn't gain any competitive edge by waiting for the MPS.

In fact, depending on where things line up in the SCCA classes, the base RX8 might be more competitive in it's class than the MPS version. For example, the Normally Aspirated MKII MR2 (90-95) is more competitive in it's class than the Turbo MKII MR2 (90-95) is in it's class. Like others have said, drivers make up most of the difference, but once you are on a National level, every little bit helps.

---jps

Rotary Soul

it takes a great driver to get any car to perform at its potential, and taking into consideration that this topic is in question in the first place, i'm guessing that there isn't much autox experience. any of those cars are good, and trust me when i say that you probably aren't experienced enough to make significant difference just by buying rx8 instead of wrx. the car means a lot less than the driver, and the evo and the wrx drive a lot differently than the rx8, since rx8 is rwd. my suggestion is drive in autox enough that you get a preference on what drivetrain you want to have, then decide on the car.

m477

Um, yes I do. I know that the engine is so far behind the front axle as to almost be in the passenger cabin. I know that the fuel tank is in front of the rear axle, under the rear seats. I also know that the subie and the mitsu both have the engines way over the front axle and the fuel tanks behind the rear axle. So yes, I think that we can safely say that the RX-8 will have the lowest polar moment of the 3, by a large margin.

BryanH

They're heavier than they look, and plagued with mild understeer at the limit. There are better autocross cars out there.

Hm, I disagree. I guess those Ferraris, Vipers, 996 Turbos and NSXs (etc) I've beat autocrossing my 112hp MR2 were just flukes? Those Insights are pretty quick too, you'd be surprised. A guy used to run one in the bay area a couple years ago and did well.


Anyway it's very hard to say what the "ultimate" autocross car is. The fastest autocross cars are the purpose built karts that run around and then go home on trailers.

evel333

Holy crap...styling? WTF does THAT have to do with autocross? I sincerely apologize for such a thoughtless answer. I must have been REALLY groggy this morning! (-_-)

RX-3_13B_Tommo

You can expect to see the MPS a lot sooner than that. I would suggest either a V8, the Holden Monaro, now Pontiac GTO, did very well in targa Tasmania last year. Or a crappy, light shell, with a decent engine, done up to your specifications. I don't know much about motorcross, but from what I've read in this thread, these MAY be good options, but i have realised that you guys have a particular fond-ness towards rice-burners.

What kind of cars would be in the STi/Evo class?

BryanH

Tommo, it sounds like you're not familiar with Autocross as we define it in North America. It's basically a competition where a course is marked by cones/pylons in a large flat paved lot, and cars travel the course solo to get the best time possible. It places an emphasis on balance and maneuverability, so generally small/agile cars are preferred.

Here are some photos I took of a local autocross a few months back: http://www.pbase.com/bryanh/autox11_10_02

ohhno15

The Z06 sounds like a good handling/power mix, what do you guys think?

Hercules

I love the Vette cept the interior sucks, and insurance is insane.

I'd buy one though, had I the extra EXTRA money to do so

Sputnik

Well, they don't suck as an autocross car, but they are out of their element in a tight parking lot course. They are more at home at higher speeds and on bigger tracks, like road courses.

---jps