desmo996

I agree with you about the money and TV the coverage, but I have to disagree with you reagarding your sport comparison. You can't expect a baseball player to perform in soccer. A race car driver is a race car driver. You are either good at it or your not. If you're not, you can not compete with with the big boys in the world arena.

Gord96BRG

Sorry, absolutely unrelated. There hasn't been a driver-actuated manual transmission (ie where the drivers press a clutch pedal and move a shift lever) in F1 for over 10 years. In fact, most F1 drivers switched to automatic trans road cars so they could practice left foot braking. It would be a safe bet that Jenson Button and the other F1 kiddies don't even know how to heel/toe!

Regards,
Gordon

desmo996

You still have to know when and when not to downshift? They also keep track of what gear they are in. There are a lot of cues missing when you learn to drive an A/T.

eccles

Comparing NASCAR to F1 (in the States) is like comparing Windows NT to OS/2 or Betamax to VHS: a triumph of superior marketing over superior technology.

Gord96BRG

True, but on the one hand anybody that plays Gran Turismo 3 on the PS2 knows how to do that. On the other hand, since about 2 years ago the shifting in F1 cars is fully automatic in that the upshifts and downshifts are programmed, and the drivers don't even need to use the shift paddles anymore. They're only there for backup in case there's a system failure. Throttle, brake, steering wheel - that's all they use in F1. In that respect, they're like overgrown go-karts! (Although shifter karts still have the driver operate the shift lever... )

Regards,
Gordon

Sputnik

With racing becoming more and more specialized nowadays, and with the competition becoming so heavy, formula, sportscar, and stock car racing effectively are separate sports. Sure, there are those who could go from one to another, given enough seat time, just like there are a few athletes who can play both baseball and football on a professional basis. But in general, it is very very difficult to do so.

---jps

neofreak

iTrader: (1)

Generally, at least in the case of the FC3S and FD3S RX-7, and NA/NB Miata, manual versions of the car generally get a lot more at resale.

With the FD, an automatic will go for 2-3k less, sometimes more, depending on model/color.

FC, maybe 1k.. Miata, a few hundred to 1k, or they may go for the same ammount, if patient, but it'll take three times as long to sell.. but this is just in the Bay Area, other areas may be different.

Donny Boy

Manual, manual, manual. Anything else is for wusses. More fun, more involvement with the car and more performance.

Edge

I was pretty happy to find an automatic '66 Mustang. While I had to rebuild the tranny, I knew the engine had been "protected." In other words the car had never bucked and/or jammed the engine. Feel free to educate me on whether that's a realistic worry or not.

97gpGT

There are enough different types of car racing with enough specialized drivers that not all drivers can be good and competitive at all of them, as Sputnik said. There's a big difference from running around in a little circle chasing your tail in NASCAR races to sliding around corners and actually having to follow directions to navigate a course in WRC races, and it's almost impossible for a driver to be good enough to compete in both types of racing. Different strategies and driving techniques are used, and so it almost is like comparing soccer to basketball. Both the sports involve running and getting ***** in to nets, so they are similar at a very, very basic level, but beyond that they are two completely different sports, just as NASCAR and F1 and WRC are different competitions, widely removed from each other.

Lex

If you have to ask which is better, then you should definitely go Automatic.

It'll also be a hell of a lot funner on those long traffic jam commutes home, with your awesome sound system blaring and your rotary humming softly, not tiring your left foot with the clutch.

Haze

It is also true that getting a license in alot of America is an absolute joke. I mean in England you have to spend hundreds on lessons and jump through a thousand hoops. In Pennsylvania, you take a written test that a chimp could literally pass since you just hit the switch on the screen for the right answer, then drive around a parking lot for ten minutes.

I know people in their fifties, men included, in this country who can't drive stick. I can't stand to think about it any more. I'm goin'

-H

Lex

Why are you so personally invested in what people do with their left feet in the privacy of their own cars?

desmo996

:p I might have to use that quote one of these days:D


Gordon and Montoya switched cars. The result: Gordon was using the F1 as a lawn mover. Read the entire article:
Gordon Sucks .

Gord96BRG

and that's different from Montoya how?

(from that same article)

So Montoya missed a turn and ran wide, but when Gordon does the exact same thing later, he sucks? Where's that smilie when you need it?

I don't think much of NASCAR, but fact is that Jeff Gordon is a world-class driver, and one of the very few in NASCAR that could successfully compete in road racing at a top level. Don't let your NASCAR bias blind you to a driver with real talent! Maybe you should read some of the other, more complete reports of that event - like where Frank Williams said that Gordon was truly impressive...

the_best_sarek

It depends what you have drove in the last 2 years and if you like that. The best is to try both. I have almost only drove MT before I went on a trip with a rental car (which was AT). Then I saw that I really dislike AT, so I'll stick to MT, more things to do, better control on the car.

desmo996

I'm not saying that he totally w/o talent, but as a racecar driver I think he would have much to learn in the International arena. He admits to this and settled for NASCAR. I am biased because NASCAR has taken over everything. Even my beloved Speed Vision was changed to Speed Channel to support the NASCAR Format. I guess 5 channels weren't enough. It turns my stomach when they, the news, announce Gordon as the "The Best Driver in the World" . IMHO the best drivers are WRC drivers. They deal with all types of surfaces and are very adaptive to any kind of driving.

Haze

It's not personal investment. I just lament the fact that manual transmissions are holding onto the US marketpalce with the skin of there synchromeshes, and I want to keep buying and driving them. I can't stand the feeling of lack of control that I get from an automatic as well as "tiptronic" type transes especially in the newer high multiple gear transes. None of the other trans options give a driver the control in truly foul weather that a manual trans does, and that's why I like them.

The reason that it is sad that a grown adult can't drive a stick shift is that it is considered a fundemental skill in Europe and apparently in other parts of the world, and it is yet another skill that Americans are too lazy to learn. I really don't know what Americans do when they travel to other countries because I have never been offered anything other than a manual trans car for rent in Europe. I guess that it's possible to get an automatic, but I've never seen one. Anyway, that's why.

-H

blizz81

I don't think you have to worry. Manual transmissions will always (provided CVT and other such modern transmission technologies don't fully take over in a number of years) be an option on the sportier of cars that drivers typically seek them on. As far as auto-domination in America...do you really want a manual Taurus? Or perhaps you like your trucks and SUVs, which make up a big chunk of American automobiles, in manual. I for one can see certain cars, and pretty much all trucks/SUVs where I wouldn't want a manual transmission.

I agree the percentages in some aimiable cases are skewed a bit. I wish there were more m/t legend coupes for the time I was looking at them. But at least the choice is typically there when I, and other enthusiasts so desire.

XUrotaryrocket

Racer X-8

There you go again, and there you've done it.
Don't be fooled by American "laziness". Americans, and America is the world's leading country, make no mistake about that. America could dominate the world, if not at this point in time, then certainly in the not-too-distant future. Big statement? You bet. But, America has chosen not to go there alone. America has chosen to make the whole world a better place, where the whole world can live in peace, happiness and FREEDOM! It didn't have to go that way, but (thank GOD), that's the way it's going. When America sees a threat to that end, we take swift and appropriate action, gathering our allies and doing it as an alliance.

Did you see any "lazy" action in Iraq when we (the alliance) took the whole country by the *****? Yet, we're bad enough to give it right back to them 100% after a new government is established.

Maybe we enjoy our luxury a bit extravegently as much as we can, including driving our Vipers around with automatic transmissions, but that's a good example of freedom of choice. We do so because we choose to! (We can also afford to put-in the extra bucks for that option - RX-8 is a rare exception here.)

So cut the crap, Haze.

Where are you really from anyway? Just curious? Really don't care...

Born Dec. 31, '69? If I were to believe that, I would have told you that you were born in a most incredible year. First of several landings on the moon - by what country? In contrast to, also in that year, Woodstock. Oh yeah, the year I got my first driver's license! (In Allentown, Pennsylvania.) I know I'm forgetting right now a few other major events that took place in that year. That was one heck of a year!

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Just wanted to make one more statement... I would LOVE to see you take over one of those NASCARs in a real race, I mean with a camera pointing in your face. HAH!

Rich

We want the world to live in peace, so we start wars to accomplish that end.

We choose not to go it alone, so we withdraw from numerous international treaties. We choose not to go it alone, but when the United Nations refuses to agree we just say **** it and do it the **** anyway. Yeah right.

We want the whole world to live in freedom, so in our own country we give the government the ability to monitor our use of public libraries without our knowledge. We create new investigative powers for the government to tap our phones and perform surveillance without any suspicion of a crime having been committed. We allow our government to hold people for an indefinite time and prevent them from communicating to a lawyer or their family where they have gone.

But this isn't enough. Oh no! We also need to try to add new laws to fundamentally change the nature of citizenship from something one must relinquish by words or actions to something that can be revoked at will by our government. That doesn't sound like freedom to me. We value freedom so highly that even legal permanent residents of this country could be booted out without so much as a day in court or a statement of suspicion. We need to add laws to create a database of citizen's DNA, regardless of whether or not they have committed a crime. We value freedom so much that we want to give the government the ability to wiretap anyone's phone for 15 days and monitor their internet usage without a warrant.

There's a lot more there, but I think you get the idea.

Don't get me wrong, I'm an American citizen, and love this country. I have made the choice to work in an industry to protect the freedoms we enjoy and the defense of our country. There's better money elsewhere, but I strongly believe that the work that I do on a day to day basis strengthens our country. But to protect those freedoms we as citizens must be ever vigilent from the sorts of things that are occuring right now. Simple rhetoric about peace, happiness and freedom can't allow us to believe that we as citizens and our governement representatives are simply superior to the rest of the world. I think the word here is humility. There's a reason that the international reputation of the United States is at an all-time low. There's a reason that many of our longest standing allies no longer stand by our sides. There's a reason we're thought of around the world as belligerent, arrogant war mongers.

I don't know how we got here from automatic vs. manual transmissions, but I just couldn't let that post stand without some attempt at rebutal. Sorry mods, feel free to delete this. I just needed to get it off my chest.

Racer X-8

Rich,

The world is a nasty place. Not all of what goes on is perfect. Never was, never will be.

For what you have written about your country, you can be assured that it is not just having your post deleted that you would be worried about in pre-war Iraq.

Of all the points you've brought up, if you were correct that there is actually something wrong in what you are referring to, (which you are wrong in every case, you're listening too hard to the wrong people) I have but two words for you - fix it. You're free to, and don't take that too lightly.

Rich

I'll let you have the last word on the issue, this is far enough off topic.

Edit - Ack, you changed your post after my post went through (my connection froze). I won't add anything more to the discussion, but I will say that the facts are quite simple to check on. Anyone interested in this discussion can easily verify if any of the facts I stated are correct or incorrect.

MadMax Rotor4

Manual, better mileage and more reliable. Not to mention, more FUN.