applejax

All the talk about convertibles has my mouth watering. I'm bored in work, so I was checking out statements for Mazda's future, and it hit me.

How about this for a Mazda lineup (purely my opinion, no speculation):

The RX8, we all know it.
The RX9 - the next generation RX7. On RX8 platform, two seats, slightly smaller. Perhaps a hatch.
The Miata - Will continue as a convertible on the same platform.
The Miata RX - A cross between the RX7 and Miata. Basically, a rotory Miata on a combined platform of the Miata and RX8.

--applejax

Grimace

Actually all of those cars are in the works except the last one.

The RX-7, currently "secretly" under development (a badly kept secret), will use the same platform as the RX-8. I don't think they'll call it the RX-9 though; but thats just my opinion.

The next Miata due 2003 as a 2004 will be on a shortened RX-8 platform. Thats pretty much been confirmed.

However, I don't think they'll make a rotary miata. That'd be priced too far upmarket for comfort (i.e. Boxter, S2000, Z3 territory). It'd also steal sales away from the next RX-7. But who knows!

There has been speculation of a convertible RX-8 in the works. Personally, after seeing some photoshopped pics of what it might look like, I hope Mazda sticks with the hardtop.

applejax

The Miata RX going up to compete with the Z3 (as one example) is exactly the point. The issue is further stregnthened by the mixed reviews of a convertible RX8. This nicely fits all niches:

RX8 - a four-seater sports car
RX7 - a two seater bordering-on-supercar
Miata - a great, more reasonably priced convertible
Miata RX - a true sports car convertible

There is obviously a large market for the Z3 and Boxter. I bet there would be a larger market for the S2000 as well if Honda didn't play games.

I don't know if changing the current Miata to the RX8 platform is a good thing or not. Probably.

PS. Any sources or info for the next RX7?

--jax

Grimace

Re: next RX-7: www.rotarynews.com is a decent source of information (99% rumours) about the next 7 (and the best source on the RX-8).

All that is really known about it is that
1) yes, it is being developed (nothing official has ever been announced, but industry insiders have pretty much confirmed this)
2) it will be based on the RX-8 platform (again, no official announcement, but industry insiders yada yada).

Pure speculation:
-2 seats
-2 door hatchback
-may be turbocharged (but not twin turbos like previous 7 due to cooling problems)
-weight close to 2500-2600 lbs


In Australia, maybe all of Europe, I'm not sure, you can get a turbo Miata right now that hangs with Boxsters and Z3's nicely. Japan will probably be getting the Miata MPS with a 1.9L 180 HP engine. With the Miata's lower curbweight by more than 500 lbs over the Z3 and Boxters it should kill them.
Apparantly, Mazda doesn't feel the US/Canadian market doesn't need any extra power, because there are no plans to bring either of these cars to our continent.
We'll have to wait and see if Mazda still has the same thinking for the 2004 Miata. Its pretty much confirmed it will be coming with the same 2.3L 150 HP engine from the upcoming Mazda 6. Maybe it'll have other engine options, who knows.

Toadman

Exactly the reason for the re-birth of MAZDASPEED in the USA.

RX - 8

dude applejax, you have to much time

NOTA V6

Dude RX - 8, you need a website for that mod list. :D

Jerome81

Well I'll chime in....

As far as the Miata goes, I personally think Mazda would be really dumb to mess with the formula very much at all. I am one of a decent number of Miata lovers who would enjoy seeing more power, but feel that the Miata shouldn't have it. Confused? Let me explain.

The Miata is not slow, but it isn't quick either. Many family sedans can outrun a Miata from a stoplight. This seems to be the biggest complaint with the car. However, the Miata is not about brute strength, the car is about balance, and the 140hp engine is the PERFECT amount of power for a car like the Miata. The steering, shifting, handling, and power are all in perfect unison. You take it out on the twisties, and it easily puts a bigger smile on my face than does the Z3 2.8. I don't know exactly what it is, maybe that I can push the Miata closer to its limits. There is just something there.

The other thing deals with expense and insurance costs. The people who loved RX-7's begged Mazda to make the 3rd gen a true super sports car. Mazda did, and people couldn't afford the cost, and definitely couldn't afford the huge insurance premiums for a car like that. The Miata was built on the philosophy of light weight, simple, and inexpensive to own and maintain. A high powered Miata would violate that. Increased power means more bracing is necessary, which adds weight. If the car becomes a high horsepower machine, insurance rates go way up. Right now, the Miata is cheaper to insure than most economy cars such as the Protege or Civic. Therein lies much of the cars charm. Just about anyone can afford to own it.

While I do think Mazda is missing a very large market (Boxster, S2000, Z3/M roadster), I by all means DO NOT WANT THEM TO USE THE MIATA. Leave the Miata piston powered DOHC I4, about 1.8L to max 2.0L and 150hp or less. Drop the weight a bit to make it a little faster, but that's it. Keep it simple and keep that balance, there will always be a market for that type of car. What I think would be in Mazda's best interest is to make a second roadster to take on those cars. You can base it on the Miata, just make it look completely different from the Miata and call it something else. Ideally, I'd like to see the Miata go to the RX-8 platform as I think they can get a stiffer chassis with less weight on that than keeping the current Miata platform. Use that same platform, convertible, hopefully slap in the RENESIS and call it the RX-9 or something to take on the Boxster/S2000, etc. Obviously there is the RX-8 and the new RX-7 as you already mentioned. If I could add anything else, I'd love to see a small coupe, like the RSX or Celica with a detuned RENESIS at about 200 hp or so. This car would be able to be RWD and that would give it the distinction of being the ONLY coupe in the class with RWD. Focus, RSX, GTI, Celica, Eclipse are ALL FWD. Combine RWD with the high revving engine that import tuners love, and I think Mazda would have a real knockout on their hands. There is a reason guys still drag old RX-3's, their light just like the Integras and such, but they're RWD!! A modern day RX-3 would do quite well I think.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Hope someone finds it interesting

Grimace

Jerome, you hit the nail on the head, IMHO.
The Miata is just about the only car I can think of that you can drive at 9/10ths on public streets and not endanger anyone, or break any laws. And it definately puts a huge smile on your face too! If I can afford both, I'd like to get a Miata parked next to my 8.
I'm 99% sure the next Miata will have the 2.3L (see my post above) and the RX-8 chassis. Regarding the engine, at first I thought this was a bad move, but I don't anymore. Like you I wanted to see displacement stay under 2.0L. However, the new 2.3L is lighter than the old iron-block 1.8. And despite it being somewhat large for a 4-banger, a recent test drive of the new Mazda 6 with this engine in Italy revealed it spools up very nicely to its 7000 redline (in fact, the testers actually prefered it over the V6 engine). The test drive was written up in World of Wheels, a Canadian publication. With 150 HP on tap, and the light RX-8 chassis, I think the next Miata will be a winner as long as Mazda keeps the magic in the chassis. I don't know how those engineers do it, there is no other car like it.
Some people might have preferred a aluminum 2 litre with more power. That'd be nice, but costs would have to go up. Mazda is not a big company, and the costs of developing a new engine would be transferred to the consumer for sure. Mazda would be wise to keep the $$ down to the current level or less. The platform sharing with the RX-8 will keep costs down too.

Jerome81

True about the 2.3L, BUT, in other markets, the 6 will have a variety of engine options, all part of this new I4 engine family Mazda developed. Among those engines include 1.8L, 2.0L, and 2.3L variants. http://www.carseverything.com/conten.../article/1411/

I do understand that the 2.3L is lighter than the 1.8L, but I would rather see the 1.8L or 2.0L of this new generation family than the 2.3L, which I think is just gonna be too much motor for a car like the Miata. The new 1.8L would weigh just that much less than the 2.3L of the same design. Mazda should be able to tweak it a bit to perhaps raise the redline or get a similar peak output as the 2.3L, much as the current 1.8L is smaller than the 2.0L from the Protege but makes 10 more hp.

I thought I had heard that the 6 was gonna have 180hp 2.3L in Japan and Europe and 160 in the US because of our poorer gas. Is 150hp the FINAL figure, or is 160hp still possible? I know 10hp isn't big in the long run, but 160 would be more competitive to the Altima and Accord than 150, which would tie the current Accord engine. That and the fact that it looks likely that Honda will up hp to 160-165 in this fall's new model. Hopefully Mazda can easily upgrade the engine if the need arises. I have heard they have a 250hp prototype of the V6 just in case the market warrants more power. I would guess they can do the same to these new 4's as well.

By the way, the 6 is getting big praise from everyone driving it. I cannot wait for this car and can't wait to see what sort of stuff Mazda has up its sleeve for the future. I'd just like to see Mazda be as competitive as possible with the hp, as they have been too far behind there for awhile. Though I'm sure the 6 will weigh less than the Altima, Accord or Camry, so performance should be fine. However, Americans only seem to see the XXX hp number, rather than taking weight into account.

Grimace

I think the 2.3L is set at 150HP, at least that's what most of the magazines are reporting. Not sure about Japan and Europe though. 150HP isn't too bad, because the 6 is a lot lighter than the Altima, Accord and Camry, and apparently the gearing is really well sorted out.

applejax

"hit the nail on the head"

Couldn't have said it better.

That was the reason I suggested the Miata RX. Having come off an '87 RX7, a '91 MR2, and a '93 MR2, I can speak from experience, and perhaps even a word of wisdom.

The '93 MR2 was an absolute blast. Problem was, by the time you are pushing the car, you were either endangering the roadways or surely breaking the law. I fully agree that the Miata is an excellent combination - to push the car (which we all knows is where any sports car feels so damn good!) is much more "practical" than pushing a 250-hp RX8.

When I drove a Miata, the power was borderline for me. I'm not one who wants the highest horsepower car, I look for a balance between HP and handling. The drive was years ago, and since then, they have bumped the Miata's HP just a bit, probably just enough.

That's why I suggest breaking the convertible in two. The Miata, more or less unchanged, and the Miata RX, for those who want the Z3 / Boxter market.

--applejax

SPLProtege

If you want a super powerful Miata, there's a company in SoCal that put's Ford 5.0 V-8's in 'em. Modern day Cobra I guess. I agree that the Miata is in a perfect niche and shouldn't be played -w- too much. Let's hope Mazda concentrates on the 8 and possibly a new 7. They could send a little more HP to the Protege too. I might give my 94 up for some power in a new one. Until then, make my 8 Green!!!!:D

rototlewski

well you guys know that the RX-8's renesis will take one of the S2000's titles away.

The most HP per litre of a N/A engine. the S2000 has a 2.0 litre that produces 245 Hp and the renesis is and 1.3 litre with 250 Hp
HOLYSHIT!!!! power to size ratio is better than any engine on the market. Just my 2 cents

ZoomZoom

The S2000 only produces 240 HP.

D C

Applejax, if you are that tired of your Deuce send it to me! Either one of them. I still think that the MR2 is the ultimate roadster, period. And if it had too much power there was always the N/A model which I don't even need to explain to you how superior it is to the miata.

enjoy

It is a more powerful car, true, but take into concideration the price difference.

D C

ok, good point. but money spent on the car is the only advantage.

Rich

D C

Ahhhhhhh. Don't give me that. Sure my statement is a little blunt, but its not like i'm saying anything that isn't factual.

Rich

That statement is not factual in any way. The Mr. 2 is better is some ways, the Miata is better in others. Neither is "superior" to the other in all respects, or to all drivers. To make that claim is patently false to any unbiased observer. The Mr. 2 is slightly faster, and can probably be a better autocross car in equally capable hands. The Miata is much easier to drive at the limit (less twitchy, more predictable), has a better gear shift, and has a far bigger trunk. Both seem to be excellently built machines, but the Miata is the one that received J.D. Power and Associate's "best in initial quality" this past year. Miatas can also be had for about 4 thousand dollars less than Mr. 2s at the moment (see www.edmunds.com for evidence).
Both are great cars, and each is "superior" to the other in some respects. For daily use with a modicum of practicality and as an occasional autocrosser, the Miata wins hands down. For a pure autocrosser, the Mr. 2 is probably the better choice. Both give me nearly equal smiles per mile.

Besides, Mr. 2s exceed my allowable ugliness factor by a wide margin. I won't claim that the superior styling of the Miata is a "factual" statement, it's a statement of my opinion on the matter. There is a difference, you know.

Styjan

Go to the Miata forum to argue about the Miata, this is the RX-8 forum.

D C

Well, thank you for a totally wasted post. First of all I was comparing the MKII MR2(91-95) to the miata. Not the Spyder. Second of all, I already said that the miata is a better value hands down. The whole point I was trying to make is that for people who want a sporty 2 seater and don't mind spending a little cash to get it, the MR2 is the obvious choice. BUT if you are looking for value and practicality, the miata is the choice. I admitted that. And yes, though the Sypder hasn't grown on everyone( I personally think it looks awesome with the hardtop, but don't like it with the softop or the top completely off), it still blows the miata out of the water with handling and performance potential. Yes, the miata has a few extra ponies for now, but come on, that engine could be so easily turbocharged, supercharged, or hell even do an engine swap with a MKII turbo. There are alot of things that Mazda has done right, but it is obvious that they have bumbled the true performace enthusiasts 2 seater segment. Yes, the miata sells alot, but the people who buy them aren't the same people who would buy a Supra, or an MR2, or an RX-7. NOW that's an ender.

Toadman

That comment is just so completely off the radar. The Miata has been on Automobile magazine's "All Stars" for 11 years running. They have the largest car club memberships in the world. Many Miataphiles own one of each generation. Ever hear of the Mazdaspeed Cup, where Spec Miatas race against each other? What about Solo2 autocross? Not bad for a bunch of bumblers who re-invented the ROADSTER and refined the pure 2-seater sports car.

ZoomZoom

I could not have said it better. :D