Nubo

I have 2 coworkers who drive Priuses (Pria?), and they report that 45-50mpg is regularly achieveable. And, the worse the traffic is, the bigger advantage the hybrid gets. While everyone else is sitting and idling their engines, the hybrid is consuming next to nothing. Add to that the very narrow engine operating regime allows for extremely low emissions and that's nothing to sneeze at. I think there is a definite value in the technology. As far as the Hydrogen Economy, it's going to be awhile to build that infrastructure, while the infrastructure for petroleum is what we have today. So even though this is a stopgap, it will be plugging the gap for a generation at least.

The other infrastructure already in place is electricity. Unfortunately, electric cars do not appeal to the mass-market due to limited range.

therm8

From everything I've seen, any gas $ savings, at least for the first few years, will be cancelled by the premium price (over MSRP here) you pay for hybrid vehicles. It's propoganda at its best. The emissions aren't even that much better. There are plenty of non-hybrid, very low emission vehicles out there now, that get better average mileage. If you only drive in the city, a hybrid might be worth it, but I doubt it.

Krankor

If you wanna save gas $$$, the real answer is: get a motorcycle.

allmotorRX8

ditto

rx8daniel

have you checked the MPG rating of motorcycles recently? Mine used to get in the low 30s. I don't know that they've gotten that much better. Now, a moped - different story. Some are capable of 120MPG. Of course, they can't run with the 70MPH traffic either. The real answer is: I'd save $1121, less about $36 more that the insurance would run. That's at $2.25 / gallon for gas. If it goes back up to $3.25, then it'd be $1633. That's based just on 70 miles day / 5 days a week. I sometimes do extra driving - so that's the low end.
You'd likely not want to drive a motorcycle in Memphis traffic. It's worse than St Louis, DC, Dallas, and even Houston traffic (aka overzealous, selfish, unsafe, on-the-phone inconsiderate and ignorant drivers who more often than not are not aware of who is around them - they simply don't have "time" to get off the phone and look around them).

rx8daniel

for all the bus proponents - do I :
a) walk to the nearest bus stop (probably about 16 miles)
b) hike to it
c) ride a bicycle to it (still 16 miles)
d) drive and park

just FYI for all those who know how everyone else should live, I've done the bus thing.
taking the bus made my 15 minute drive a 45 minute walk/ride/walk - and I lived about 200 feet from the nearest bus stop at my house, and about 1/4 milie from the one at work.
I've also had 3 diesel engine vehicles - the last being a '99 VW New Beetle TDI. Averaged about 43MPG; most miles on one tank -723. Could get just over 15 gallons in the tank with effort. Yes, the Passat's new diesel engine is nice; the one still in the Jetta/Golf/New Beetle is still very good. Buying diesel fuel is a smelly pain. Walking in it at stations, not fun either. Replacing a timing belt every 40K not that great as well.

rx8daniel

(and 4th year, and 5th year)
what is your source(s) of information on the 3rd, 4th and 5th year costs?

rkostolni

My coworker was telling me he read a report (he reads all this kinda stuff) saying that the average consumer actually looses money buying a hybrid. Driving an average 15k miles a year the gas savings isn't enough to pay for the increased cost of the car and the increased maintenance costs.

rx8daniel

a local Honda dealer has a used 2003 5speed Hybrid Civic w/ 28K (their ad) or 38K (the car-I've driven it), for $15K - $16K. A new 2006 Hybrid Civic is MSRP 22,400. The 2006 tax credit (as opposed to the 2005 'deduction') will be about (not definite yet) $2100. I can get $1100 off the new price, so the new one will cost 22,400 - 2100 - 1100 = 19,200. That includes the latest safety technology (the '06 Civic was recently rated as one of the top cars from recent crash tests) as well as the latest 'techno' gadgetry (go-go gadget hypermiles). Yes, all new cars depreciate. But unfortunately, so do used cars. Mine has gone from $30K to $20K in 2.5 years. From 3/1/06 to 3/1/08, which will depreciate more - my '04 RX-8, or a brand new '06 Civic? IMHO - it'll be close. The largest bite of depreciation has already taken place. However, Honda's generally hold their value about 5% better than most Mazda's, including the RX-8, over 3 - 4 years. I've done a LOT of research, besides having a co-worker I car-pooled with that had a Civic - auto normal engine.

rx8daniel

ask him where he read the report. I'll find it and read it as well.
suggest he read the January 2006 Car & Driver issue, and visit greenybrid.com and hybridcars.com. The latter website just posted an article from Idaho National Laboratory's Advanced Vehicle Testing labs. The main subject was concerning A/C (note: I don't live in a dessert in Nevada) reducing mileage. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but running the A/C full blast will reduce the fuel economy of any car, albeit not to the same percentage. Anyway, they found the battery may last 160K miles. A lot of the variables that can be used to against a hybrid, or to justify buying one, have yet to be proven. No single Honda Hybrid owner has paid out-of-pocket to replace their Hybrid's battery.

Krankor

Well then you had a lame motorcycle. On a good day I can get 50mpg on my Virago. I used to get 80mpg on my old Rebel. It depends on what kind of motorcycle, if you go for the fastest or the biggest it obviously won't be so great in the gas mileage department.

Well, I ride in Boston, which is not exactly Driver's Paradise.

Raevik

Did you seriously just say that Eurpoean diesels get 70mpg?

Seriously?

Sometimes I really think some people are so possessed with Europe-envy they'll make any claim that comes to their mind to back up that whatever the US is doing, someone else is doing better and we're all stupider for it.

Please move there, change your citizenship so you can stop voting here, and save us all some headache.

ShadowX

My 2000 celica GT-S averaged 32 MPG; that was with me hitting the second cam pretty much every shift. I could get close to 40 MPG on straight freeway. And if you're a tree hugger, it's a ULEV car.

Hybrids are a waste of money, most diesels will beat them in fuel efficiency. Biodiesel is the way to go. I don't get why it hasn't been more broadly accepted...totally renewable, little to no modifications are needed, and similar performance to dino-diesel. Diesels were orginally designed to run on peanut, so it seems to be a logical step.

[edit]
Just saw the comment on 70mpg diesel, it is real. The VW Lupo can get 70mpg(with reports of 90mpg), pretty sure they tested one on TopGear and got that mileage. (Not scientific by any stretch, but not unrealistic and real world) Americans have historically disliked diesels for whatever reason. In the UK you can get pretty much any car in an economic diesel version.
[/edit]

moRotorMotor

70mpg is probably a good base figure. Top Gear mentioned that a VW diesel powered car (Golf...I think) got 80-90mpg (don't quote me on that, but I am %90 sure). I am not exactly sure why you are over reacting to the figures. It's just facts. Take a pill.

Slick8

Assume the current average price of gas is close to $2.25/gal,
and you drive 12K miles/yr,
the RX-8 get 20 mpg,
and the hybrid gets 50 mpg,

(12K mi/yr)($2.25/gal) [(1 gal/20 miles) - (1 gal/50 miles)] = $810/yr

Not much of a difference, there are much better ways to save money. Looking at this equation, if you want to save money, driving less would be the biggest factor.

Jordan Dalton

Well, If i had a hybrid all this year instead of my Rx8 I would've saved over $3,500 in gas

RX-Aight

You might save a few bucks, but the loss of your "man card" might cost you more than you save in gas and tax write-offs.

spork

Wow, you drove over 51,000 miles in one year? That's crazy. Or maybe you're just averaging 10mpg and driving 25,000 miles a year? That's insane. Get yourself a beater..

I think the issue here is making it sound like all Europe diesels all get like 70mpg. Diesels get incredible mileage but 70-90 is like the top end super economy if I'm not mistaken. The Audi A8 Diesel "only" got ~45 mpg with near optimal gas saving driving. (Though it has a frickin' V8 engine). But then again, the Prius should be competing against the super good gas mileage cars so I would say comparing them to the 70mpg economy diesels is ok. It's not like the Prius is a performance vehicle. Most people buy it because of the gas issue so why not compare it to other cars that people buy for the gas issue?

Unfortunately diesel here is expensive (I've seen it for $3.35 where premium is $2.55) and harder to find.

captain mercury

if most people would avoid stopping for a 'coffee-drink' at Starbucks on their way to work 3-5 days a week they would save much more monmey than if they bought a hybrid.

Desert Rotor

Let's see some hard data on 70 mpg diesel cars, please. A neighbor has a new diesel Beetle and drives some 50 miles one way to work. Her mileage is between 40 mpg and 50 mpg; bone-stock, standard transmission, sedate driving style.

The hybrids not only lose mileage when the A/C is turned on, they also lose it when the heater/defroster is running. These cars shine best in stop and go traffic on mild days when neither AC nor heating is required; otherwise their mileage does not appear to be any better than many standard cars.

If I had a commute that involved a lot of stop/go, I would think long and hard about driving it with a sports car (unless that was the only car I had, as was the case years ago), but that wouldn't make me want to give up an RX-8.

(Not an owner, yet...)