jon0220

I fell in love with the RX 8 and found this forum while trying to understand what owning a rotary entails and while not a mechanic or "car guy", after much reading I have a good handle on what's involved for operation and upkeep.

My question is regarding the lack of DSC/TC in the *Rain*. The lack of these safety features was not even a consideration for me until I began reading a lot of the threads in this forum, which has the majority saying basically that w/o DSC/TC you are an accident waiting to happen.

Hmmm. That's something I never heard of before...

I live in Connecticut and well understand the dynamics of a car in the ice and snow. I have owned and operated 8 RWD cars in this enviroment, all of which lacked DSC/TC. I know the RX is ultra light and well balanced- a receipt for a spin no doubt, but just how much so?

I would like feedback about stability in the Rain though, as I always felt the rain was the real enemy.

I always baby a car in a turn if any acceleration is needed, drive w/in the conditions, and am not a typical fast car driver- the attraction to the 8 for me is it is the most fun car I have ever driven with the high revving enjine.

But will I spin on my first turn in the rain??

Mazurfer

If you are used to rear wheel drive, and ice and snow, then you won't have too much of an issue. As you know............it will be largely condition dependent. Go find a large, empty parking while it's raining or maybe a skid pad and learn how it's going to behave.
I think a lot of the TCS/DCS is for all the younger generation that never drove anything but a front wheel drive car going back and forth to the mall.

jon0220

I also understand the importance of good tires, and would immediately install excellent all seasons, or whatever is best recommended for my conditions. Again, the concern being less about snow than rain, be it cold rain or summer rain.

BTW, this will be a daily driver for me. Unless it rains? lol

Mazurfer

Mine's a DD and while I don't get snow/ice.........Florida gets a ton of rain. I know how/when I can push it and when I shouldn't.........that's what it's all about. And, yes of course a lot has to do with tire choice, tread, inflation, etc.

jon0220

mazurfer

That was my line of thought from day one when I saw the features and lack of DSC/TC on the Sport model. I thought gee it would certainly be nice to have, but didn't factor into the decision at all.

Then after searching DSC threads here, it became appearent that the majority have rear end slippages in low speed turning situations. My initial thought was that people who tend to drive fast sporty cars also drive them faster than regular car drivers- so perhaps driving style was coming more into play? not trying to claim user error at all! it's just that I am a regular car driver in my daily driving. I don't like a lot of speed or taking turns fast and hugging the road and pushing performance. And I am trying to quantify the risks.

Normally I wouldn't consider a sports type car, but I am simply in love with the driving experience, and the ability to push the rpms... but would really only do so in straighter roads and dry conditions.

jon0220

mazurfer

Thanks for the fast replies. As a frequent rainy condition driver, do you encounter slippage issues- or engagement of DSC while cornering at conservative speeds?

I have no desire to push the car at all, not my style... but just want to know I can make my offramp or lazy country road turn and remain on the road, with little to no acceleration?

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

DSC/TC is a wonderful thing, but it's there basically to protect us from ourselves. Given proper adverse condition driving skills it's unnecessary (but again, as also ABS brakes, very nice to have).

The 8's relatively low torque is actually an advantage in slippery conditions as we tend not to 'break loose' as much as many other sportscars.

Zerotide

iTrader: (1)

DSC/TT may "protect us from ourselves" as you say, but I don't think a sheet of ice that you can't/don't see and unexpectedly go over falls into that. There have been many instances where TT has kicked in and adjusted the car in the snow when I have just been driving normally. I really never push it in the snow at all, in fact I drive extremely carefully but you can't possibly know the exact condition of the road in certain spots.

To me it is invaluable. I wonder why you bought an 8 in Connecticut without DSCTT.

Also, if you are gonna drive it in the snow, skip the all season tires. Get a nice set of sticky summer tires, stick them on your stock rims, and get some junky rims for the winter and put a set of Blizzaks on them. I have blizzaks on my car and I get around perfectly.

CTrx8

iTrader: (2)

since you're in CT and driving in the rain, i hope you aren't doing that on your stock tires. it has been very cold here (even before this latest snow) so rain and sub-40 degree weather on stock tires will not help your cause one bit.

jon0220

>The 8's relatively low torque is actually an advantage in slippery conditions as we tend not to 'break loose' as much as many other sportscars.<

That is exactely what I was thinking. Unless you are high revving in the turn, which I would never do.

I ask openly for help here because after spending nights reading and reading many DSC involved threads and stories here, it seems like one can be driving down the road conservatively and when the slightest turn is involved, all of a sudden the back end slips and they are spinning.

I have had the big boats- the monster 81 Olds and a 70's Impala, a powerful Infinity J30, a light Chevy 2WD pick up, a Miata for a short time, and a couple of 4wd ers that would only have 2wd Rwd engaged in rainy conditions, never a rain slippage yet...

But after reading these threads here I immediately ceased my negotiating until I can get a better handle on this issue

The biggest difference I can think of between what I have driven before and this RX is it is very light, and well balanced. Both of these things indicate to me more of a chance for slippage, but how much is what I need to get comfortable with...

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

Exactly, you can't always know the road conditions so anticipating the worst is in order - but failing that, DSC/TC will protect us from ourselves.

jon0220

Thanks guys, I totally understand the stock tires are worthless in cold weather and or rain, and will be changed out to another set of winter rims-n-tires

I'm more concerned about spring/summer rain though... Snow driving is what it is, rain's the unpredictable one for me

CTrx8

iTrader: (2)

that's false. even when i was on stock tires up until just after thanksgiving, i was perfectly fine and never slipped. i don't know the last time i had DSC/TC kick in and it definitely didn't when i was being careful. i would still highly recommend getting off the stockers and get some blizzaks as was already said. i have them on right now and feel more confident driving my 8 than my wife's accord on all seasons.

CTrx8

iTrader: (2)

you'll be fine in spring/summer rain. just take it easy and you'll be fine. i think the only instance where i was being really dumb and it kicked in for me was taking the off-ramp from the merritt onto 287 to get to the tappan zee bridge. it is really tight there, it was raining, and i took it way faster than i should have and DSC/TC saved me. had i been driving carefully and known that turn better (i was new to the area and new to the 8 so bad combo) i would have been fine and have been on that same off ramp ever since.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Chances are, your prior RWD cars had a heavy tendancy to understeer, and the only rain problem you had was over-powering the traction available, but when it came to throttle-off turning, you were more likely to lose the front end before the back. The 8 being superbly balanced means that you could lose the front or the rear in throttle-off conditions, entirely dependant on what you are doing with the car. This DOES lend itself to oversteer more frequently than other big engined RWD cars, but hardly "an accident waiting to happen".

Alot of the spinning out accidents without DSC / TCS on the forums are happening in 1 of 2 conditions:
1: Southern states where it is warmer, they don't pay attention to their tires as much (and the sport trims being less expensive to purchase certainly has an element of people not willing to spend as much on upkeep) and end up with bald tires in the rain when they have no business being there
2: Middle and Northern states with the wrong tires on for the weather. (summers on in winter, or stock tires at all)

Tires tires tires tires tires. I'll be stressing that again in a minute.

Wrong choice if you go all seasons. Seriously. All seasons are compromise between rain, snow, ice, and dry, and they aren't good at any of them. Get some good summer tires that only compromise between rain and dry, and it will be far superior to all seasons. Yokohama S. Drives are absolutely incredible grip in the rain, with really good dry grip as well, and are superior to any all seasons in those conditions. Get a set of winter tires for the other 4-5 months of the year. Compromise is required, but don't try to split up the tire's available options into that many weather types.

Providence is in the top-5 list of US cities for precipitation volume, and I deal with alot of wet. You can certainly overpower traction on even the best wet tires, the 8 DOES have enough torque for that, but it's low end torque is so low, that I have a better time maintaining grip in my 8 than I do my wife's Mazda5. Even in the snow, I can move around without breaking traction at all.



So get a proper summer tire with balanced (And good) wet/dry characteristics, and you will be just fine.

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

Goodyear Eagle GT [summer] tires are excellent in the rain. There are a number of others.

Basically you want a tire that rapidly self-clears the standing water in its footprint to avoid hydroplanning.

Winter snow (snow tires) or Spring/Summer/Fall rain (rain tires) it's all about maintaining adhesive contact with the road.

Alexb

iTrader: (1)

I don't have DSC.

I've been driving it for over a year, in a manual trans. I can put the car in a drift if I want, but it's rarely happens when I don't want it to. As long as you aren't slamming the gas in 1st or 2st gear around a turn in the rain.... you'll be fine.

Just make sure you've got tires that aren't too worn

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Another thing to keep in mind is that the only 8s without the DSC / TCS standard are also the lightest 8s available from the factory, which I believe is intended on Mazda's part for the target buyer that buys it with a heavy intention to track it.

I might be wrong, but maybe not.

jon0220

Thanks for all the replies for far guys... this real world driving advice is exactely what I am looking for.

>>Chances are, your prior RWD cars had a heavy tendancy to understeer, and the only rain problem you had was over-powering the traction available, but when it came to throttle-off turning, you were more likely to lose the front end before the back. The 8 being superbly balanced means that you could lose the front or the rear in throttle-off conditions, entirely dependant on what you are doing with the car. This DOES lend itself to oversteer more frequently than other big engined RWD cars, but hardly "an accident waiting to happen".<<

This is what has my brain twisted up in a knot, as I don't have any experience driving a balanced car like this. Again, I'm not a car guy or an engineer and don't understand the technicalities of turning dynamics, but I do understand a heavier, longer car/truck would slip less than a light well balanced one.

The FRONT slippage is a bit troubling- I was under the impression that as long as there wasn't any rear thrust there would be no chance of a problem, unless the turn was taken at such a high speed that the car simply continued straight and couldn't grip to make the turn... but what you seem to be saying is that w/o thrust, the car can become unstable and spin due to it's balance?

I now have a mental picture of a spinning top, where the slightest imbalance throws it off...

I thought I'd be OK after driving particularily the Chevy pick up, it was a tiny S10 that weighed nothing- no real power of course- but with care it never slipped once. This RX is another animal alltogether.

And yes, I believe the Sport is the lightest and tracked more than others, though that is not my intention.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

It comes down to vehicle dynamics. The 8 doesn't have a tendancy to lose the rear any more or less than the front, when entirely settled on the suspension. Even at REALLY high speeds, you still need a lateral force to get it upset (normally wind, slight road curves, etc...)

I am not a physisist and I Don't track my car on a regular basis, so I am hardly an expert. If there is an expert around, feel free to jump in to correct any points, but I think I have this right.

One thing to keep in mind is understeer vs oversteer just means which tires break traction FIRST. You can easily be going fast enough that none of the 4 have enough traction for your attempted maneuver, and the only thing that matters there is if your front tires break first (you hit the wall head on), or your rears break first (you spin and back into the wall). Too much steering input can always break the fronts, too much throttle can break the rears, in any of the scenarios below. Otherwise, the below applies still.



When you are entering a corner, if you keep the speed constant, no braking, only light throttle to keep the speed, all 4 corners will grip evenly. If you suddenly apply the brakes or let off the throttle, the weight will get transferred forward, making the rear end light, and you can easily have a loss of traction of the rear tires, as the contact patch will become reduced. If you nail the brakes really hard, the rear tires might not have time to lose traction before the front tires lock up, and when they lock up, they lose all directional ability, and you go in a straight line.

If you accelerate instead, the weight transfers to the rear, and you get better grip in the rear, less grip in the front. Less grip in the front can cause the front tires to slide, and you have understeer. Again, we are talking about generally slight changes in grip unless you are running at 9/10th or 10/10th, which I assume you won't be in the rain.

If you keep the speed neutral, you can still break the rear end loose if you get a sudden left to right or right to left weight transfer, normally by turning one way, then back the other quickly, like you would in an avoidance maneuver to dodge something. Too sharp of steering input though, and you can break the front before the back.

FWD cars still hold all these points as well, just they have power-on understeer, and breaking traction is easier than RWD cars, due to weight transfer off the front, and trying to both turn and accelerate at the same time.



So I guess what I am saying, is that yes, the car can become unstable and spin, but that is entirely driver error. The 8 is incredibly stable by itself, both in straight lines and through corners. You can certainly induce a loss of traction, on purpose or accidently, but the limits are far higher than your typical RWD car.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

If this concern of yours is enough to warrant it, contact someone local (or even me depending on where in CT you are) and I am 100% sure that anyone on here would be more than happy to take you for a ride to demonstrate some of this, and a few brave ones might even let you drive it yourself.


End point will be though, this isn't a problem for you to worry about if you have common sense and aren't an idiot about low traction conditions. But that is true for anything

Solidtrance

iTrader: (2)

I was about to post essentially the same thing. Anytime I have had the back end move around in the rain i was doing it on purpose. I have never experienced any loss of traction when driving the car in a reasonable manner. The RX8's limits are pretty far out there (wet, dry, even in the snow with proper tires). When I had my P5 I thought the 8 handled the snow better thatn it did and that car was FWD. Bottom line.....This car won't do anything silly in any condition, but will you?

BTW I grew up in CT too, so I have a good idea of what conditions (same goes for RIWWP) you are dealing with. Now that this is all resolved, get it in white...best color ever!

HeavyMetal699

I thought all of the RX-8's without the DSC button have traction control on all the time and you can't turn it off.

You should still have traction control, just not DSC. In order to completely turn off the traction control you would have to pull the fuse, which is illegal under SCCA rules. That's why all the RX-8's that are autocrossed have the extra package with the button.


Edit: Go to mazda.com and look at standard features. I'm pretty sure Traction Control System is standard on all RX-8's from 2004 and up.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

No, they are lumped together. This is only 2010, but the TCS DSC is 1 combined line for every RX-8 feature list I have ever seen.

jon0220

RIWPP

Thank you so very much for the lesson in the car's driving dynamics, it was just what I was looking for from a real world driver. I don't doubt that the car can slip-n-spin, and may be more prone to do so than other types of RWD, I was just so thrown off balance by reading some of the reports here and was questioning what I know of RW driving techniques.

My only experience with DSC is in my current car, a Nissan Rogue ( the ultimate compromise car- affordable, great gas mileage, carrying capacity, & AWD- but ZERO fun to drive ) and I finally made the DSC engage last night for the first time in two years, but it took a lot of trying reeeal hard in the snow to do that- and even then it didn't "help" me, just scared the presents out of me w/ the noise, lol

To hear that the 8 is a stable car is what I was trying to determine. I didn't understand how it could be THAT much different than others- faster and more balanced yes, buuuut haven't RWD sports cars been sucessfully driven in the rain for many many years w/o DSC but with care?

Again, winter I can handle... it's every day driving in the rain that is the concern. I am regaining my confidence as I type

And yes, I am shooting for the car in white~