On flooding problems - why doesn't Mazda...
 

I'm sure you'll let me know if this is a silly question. I've been reading all the flooding threads and this is clearly much more of an issue than it should be for a $30,000 car. Even guys who know better get sucked in. So... with all the programming that's gone into the car, why doesn't Mazda program a cold shutdown sequence that leans out the F/A to zero until the engine stops? No more flooding...

You're preaching to the choir. I'm sure we all agree that the flooding issue is the single most annoying downside to the 8. IMHO more than the HP issue. No one that doesn't have an 8 will know to follow this procedure, much less really follow it. I will not valet my car or park in a downtown lot that collects your keys so they can pack the most cars onto a small lot. Even if you explain about the procedure, will they follow it? I don't know of any other car that suffers from this problem. Note, I never owned a deisel. And I can't believe it's not in the manual, it's on some quick read brochure. Did Mazda not know about this til late in the delivery process. Something this important deserves a big red remove by consumer only sticker on the steering wheel as well as a very prominent placement in the manual. That said, I'm the only one that drives the car and instead of letting it idle to warmth, I drive around the block and then pull back in my driveway if I need to do a short move (I don't remember what exactly Mazda calls it). So it comes in handy when my addiction of driving the 8 needs feeding. I pretend to "need" to move the car and once it gets warmed up, I do a couple of WOTs before going home. Very relaxing. My wife doesn't know that half the time I took making sure it was fully warmed was having fun. Maybe that contributes to my low MPG.


On a related note, since there's no other cars that need to be idled to warmth before shutting down, and the 8 is said to get piss-poor mpg at idle (I know all cars get bad mpg at idle, while parked, no miles at all, but the 8 is said to be a real hog at idle), the EPA estimates should be downgraded to include this unusual requirement.

Are you joking? Lean it out to Zero until the engine stops? Do you mean until it stops for good, because that's what you'd end up with eventually. Rotaries are more sensitive to detonation than piston engines.

I mean, I can see where you're going with that, but leaning it out just isn't the right answer. Yes, though, something more automated would be nice.

hey i are going to be a rx-8 owner pretty soon, i been notice this flooding issue for quite some time here, and i understand a little but for other that may not can you just explaind with alot of details what you have to do to not have this problem?...thanks...

It is in the manual

I knew somebody would know why that's a silly idea. I don't know much about what causes a firing chamber to detonate or the kind of damage it could do. There are still opportunities for shutting it down more safely - like automatically reving to 3k for a few seconds to warm the chambers up and then leaning the a/f to a less rich condition before shutdown. Besides throwing less gas in the engine, it would be cool to see the look on the parking valet's face as he freaks out. :D I think the engineers at Mazda could work out the details for something, anything, that's better than what we got now.

Not really, Astor. The manual has an "emergency" procedure for starting the car when its flooded (which I recently had to use - see my post: Flooded... Emergency Start Procedure Let Me Down ), and there is a separate "Quick Start" guide that the dealerships give which discusses the "short move" procedure, but they don't join the two together for some reason. I think Mazda struggles with this issue and that might explain why the short-move procedure is not really in the manual.

People are telling me that my tow tomorrow and the de-flooding will be paid by Mazda. If so, they're spending a lot of money on this to keep it a non-issue for their dealers, because I don't see how my failing to follow the short-move procedure is a "materials and workmanship" issue (unlike my November Seat Belt Debacle, which I believe was caused by a non-standard buckle). My sense of it is that there are difficult technical issues here that we're not understanding. Wakeech mentioned that the mounting of the spark plugs on the side of the engine makes them prone to fouling -- that sounds like a plausible theory. I suspect the placement of the plugs is a huge issue, so they needed to put them there, and if they are there, they tend to foul.

No one has more of a right to be pissed off than me at this particular moment in time about the flooding issue. Tomorrow will be my third day without my baby. In my mind, so far anyway, it's not got me too crazy. I'm not real happy about the difficulty of finding a rotary mechanic during a holiday weekend, but I'm not working very much either this week, so it's not particulary fair to be pissed off at people for wanting to take a few days off. I'm fairly sure I could have gotten a loaner car if I had asked for one.

The service guy I spoke to about the car said that he didn't have a Mazda tech available and that the RX-8 was a "specialty vehicle." Yes, I know. In fact, that's really a big reason why I wanted to own it. We'll get it figured out... give it some time. The list of things wrong with this car is really quite short compared to the other list I've got.

The biggest issue is that the trailing spark plugs fire before the leading spark plugs at startup and idle. The trailing spark plugs have a very small hole to fire through and are set back quite far in that hole shrouding the spark pretty heavily. This alone causes the plugs to foul easier than the leading plugs and now we complicate the matter by having them fire first at idle and startup. Also unlike the RX-7's the RX-8 does not use wasted spark mode which fires the leading plugs twice as much. They just need to go back to the old way or spint the engine over faster. Everytime you get in the car press the pedal all the way to the floor (whether flooded or not) and crank it. Let it turn over for a few seconds and then release your foot. This will also cut down on the number of flooding issues.

Detonation DOES NOT HURT a non forced induction engine bad. ALL of the rotaries that are destroyed from detonation have forced induction. The added temperature extremes and greater pressures of forced induction are what really hurt the engine during detonation.

This is exactly why you must be sure and redline your Renesis often - to help keep that trailing hole clean.
Absolutely true. However, I also took into consideration that he's talking about leaning beyond the onset of detonation and going to the point that the motor dies. Surely, that's gotta be pretty bad, too?

This is a great thread for people like me who own the car but really do not understand the flooding issue throughly.

since reading this board i usually do not take the 8 for short drives, and if i have to move a short distance; like going to the gas station from my house i will get to the gas station and idle the car for couple of minutes before shut down.

I wish there was a solution for this so that I would worry less when my father takes out the 8 and for those random cases i might just forgot. Someone mentioned a Turbo Timer.. dunno how that would work though.

Just a note:

There IS a Mazda mandated fix for the flooding issue!!!

Several weeks ago, my car was having the alignment "tweaked" for the next autocross, and my dealer asked if I had all the updates. I thought I did, but upon further checking, they found I was due the upgraded oil pan AND the "hotter" leading spark plugs FOR THE FLOODING ISSUE!

Mazda has let ALL of their dealer network know, that if a customer complains of "flooding" or "hard to start" issues, to put in these plugs under warranty.

Ask them.....

great to know tpryor! thanks for the information. Perhaps a mod should start a RX-8 Update Thread and leave it sticky or something like that.

Yep good to know. I wonder how a hotter leading plug will make a difference since the trailing plugs fire first at startup. Hmm.....?

I definitely agree with the redline every time comment. They are meant to rev.

I don't recall reading that in any of the service bulletins . It would be nice to know, for example, what VIN numbers still require the spark plug upgrades. I'm wondering if my dealer, who is still doesn't comprehend the need for 5w-20 oil, has a clue. It would be disappointing if official Mazda warranty repair updates were communicated to dealers via channels outside the service bulletins.

I asked that very question, and they said Mazda did not want to publish a Service Bulletin for this. They were notifying the dealers through the normal communications "channels" (whatever that means), but it WAS an official Mazda communication.

And, it was the bottom two plugs, maybe they are the trailing??

This pic will illustrate the above statement by Rotarygod.

This shows the relationship between leading and trailing spark plug exposure. If plugs were fitted in this housing (12A), the leading (bigger hole) spark plug would be visibly exposed. The trailing would not.

Thanks for the pic! Now imagine how you are supposed to fire anything through that, especially when the plug is set back by 3/8". It just makes much more sense to fire the leading plug first, at least on startup. Why they fire the trailing first at all is beyond me. That's why it is called "trailing".

Just for illustrative purposes, the trailing hole is about twice the width of the plug gap! The center ceramic electrode of the plug itself takes up much of that area while the plugs fire to the sides. Some plugs have a small ground strap that comes up over the electrode but even still now the spark has to go around the blockage before it does anything useful. You can not enlarge that hole though due to its location in relation to how far along in the compression cycle the rotor is at when the apex seals cross the hole. You don't want pressure bleeding back around the apex seal into the following chamber. The leading location size does not matter near as much.

Mazda: You guys drink a little too much Sake over there on the job!

Oh yeah, the top plugs are trailing and the bottom ones are leading.

Another angle.

This may seem dumb, but what exactly happens when you press teh accelerator to the floor before starting? Won't that dump more gas into it?

Is it me, or is everyone kind of freaking out unneccessarily about this "flooding issue"? According to the polls on this board, over 80% of us have NEVER flooded our engine.

As far as I'm concerned, this isn't an issue. Just follow some very simple rules - don't start your car, let it run for 30 seconds and shut it off (which I would never do anyway, even with a piston engine) - and you'll be fine.

What we're talking about here is the "possibility" of flooding, not an actual flooding issue.

Those of you who have actually flooded your engine, have a flooding issue. And, if it continues, you SHOULD contact Mazda and complain. BUT, those of us who have never flooded our engines, have no grounds for complaint.

I'll get off my soapbox now. As you were.....

I don't think I'm overreacting...

I don't think folks are overreacting. If it hadn't been for this forum, I wouldn't have guessed (having never previously owned a rotary) such a problem existed. In 3 test drives, not one dealer has ever mentioned it. You'd have to dig AND know something about rotary engines to understand the real importance of the section in the owner's manual about restarting a flooded engine.

Maybe on my next test drive, I'll turn it off right after starting and see how the dealer reacts...

That's a sad picture. When will they get it back to you? Nice looking car though. I do like the clear side markers.

And no snow on the ground? In January? That doesn't bode well for the rest of winter.

I was pretty cocky before Tuesday. I really thought that knowing what to do when the car flooded was the key. It seems that there is no reliable parachute... just don't do it.

Or, go ahead and give it a shot. Lets all just drive the car five feet and shut it down, then post our experiences... I'll go first... ok, your turn... ;)

They tell me the car probably won't get looked at until Monday. That's about a week without the car. The whole experience just proves that I love my wife more than my car. It's close, but she wins.

ROTFL (about the wife that is). Damn. That's a long time, but it is the holidaze.


Heh. I don't mind doing it on a test drive just to see how they react. But I'm not even going to tempt fate with my own...

That still leaves 20% who have. That is significant. Would you take a medicine that had a 20% chance of hurting you? No. what percentage of other cars have 20% of the owners experiencing flooding issues? If yours hasn't flooded feel lucky. It's just a matter of time. It will at least once someday.

You're right, that is significant. However, my point is, I personally can't complain to Mazda about a flooding issue, because my car has never flooded. The only statistics (and I use that term lightly, because we're only suppose to believe half of what we hear on the internet) I have, is what I read on this forum.

Bad analogy, flooding an engine won't hurt anyone.

Gee, thanks! I'm sorry you feel that way, but I hope not.

I just test drove an RX8 and here is what I did . . .the salesman asked me to pull the car around front while he went into the dealer for a few minutes so I had some time to play

I started the car, pulled it about 50 feet and then after about 1 minute (when I remembered to test the car for flooding :D ) I turned the car off.

I then waited a minute and then started the car and it started right up, then after that I shut it off again almost right away and then tried to start the car and again it started right up . . .

The temp was about 48 degree's . . .

I might be test driving another car soon so if I do, next time I'll start it and not even wait a minute, I'll just shut it off right away and then I'll report back here.

Once the car reaches temperature, it apparently won't flood. It stays warm for several hours. The small size of the RENESIS makes it heat quickly.

True the analogy was bad but the point was made. I've had several RX-7's over the years and my 2 closest friends have also. We have all had flooding issues. Some are worse than others but every car I've had has experienced it at some time or another. That is just something that the rotary is more prone to. I know why they flood easily and know what to do to remedy it. Mazda doesn't though and that is the issue. The Renesis is even more prone to flooding than the RX-7's for several very big reasons. feel lucky. I hope yours never floods but if it does one day, don't be surprised. It may be a week or it may be 2 years but at some point in time it will flood at least once.

When your engine did flood, was it something that could have been avoided, or did it happen for no apparent reason (other than it's a rotary)?

Usually on the older cars you are suffering from issues like leaky fuel injectors and other little problems. Sometimes though I would just flood them even when there were no mechanical problems. The easiest way to flood it is to crank it over and then let off the key just before the engine catches. There is usually fuel in the engine by now but the engine has stopped rotating and it is just sitting there. Even the older rotaries are easy to flood when cold. The key is warm shutdown in regards to this. I have had that happen on all 3 generation RX-7's. Typically if you are careful and pay attention it won't flood. It still happens to me every once in a while though. Even when it does now, I almost never have to push it. That is a rare case. The Renesis ignition system is the culprit. The more I think about it the more I feel that the side exhaust port location doesn't hurt as bad as everyone thinks in regards to excess fuel expulsion. It took a while but I just had to learn the behavior of my cars. Other people can flood my cars much easier than I can. I just know how to treat them.

I recently experienced the dreaded no start (flooded) problem. After having the car towed to the dealer, they sent for new plugs from Mazda. It's my understanding that these new plugs are slotted to reduce the tendency to flood. Has anyone else had this "fix" done to their car?

Does flooding only happen in colder temps, or can it happen when it's in the 65+ outside? Has anyone in S. Florida or SoCal had flooding issues? I haven't flooded my engine yet and i sometimes only travel 1/2 a mile to the tech building (at my school). I try to idle a minute or 2 but sometimes i'm late and have to shut it off cold. However, i've never shut if off cold when it was less than 55 degrees. No problems yet, but i'm probably jinxing it...

Peripheral Exhaust Port (RX-7):
• poor emissions
• easy to unflood

Side Exhaust Port (RX-8):
• good emissions
• difficult to unflood (excess liquid fuel is trapped)


Mazda may have to redesign the Renesis to solve both problems.

I wish I didn't have to keep typing this every other post. It's the ignition system! The trailing plugs fire before the leading plugs at startup. That is what causes the engine to flood easier not the side ports. The lack of wasted spark doesn't help either. While they may contribute a little something to the issue, the side ports are not the main problem. I wrote the damn flooding article. It's the ignition system.

I'd like to see top quality posts repeated in the FAQ section.

Here is a real-life experience situation as to how *I* found out about the flooding issue....

I don't own an RX-8 yet, but I found out about the flooding issue a couple weeks back right *before* a test drive...

I had requested a test drive of an AT RX-8, and the salesman had to go back and bring it around front...

Well, to make a long story short, about 10 minutes had gone by (I though he took the drive solo for a moment) and finally the salesman came back and said there might be a problem...

As it turns out, they only had one AT on the lot (they had 26 MTs as they are obviously by far the more popular choice), and they could not get it to start.

He then explained to me about the flooding issue, and that someone must have quickly moved the car without properly running it a few minutes before shutting it off again... Obviously, he was quite embarrased about the situation, but I viewed it as a lesson learned to prevent me from making the mistake myself later on.

To me, it is an inconvenience of sorts, but even though my salesman probably thinks he lost a sale... I found it a bit comforting that he *knew* what he was talking about, and was honest about the situation... So I am still strongly leaning towards buying, despite the potential "fault".

---Dave S

How about complaining to the Better business bureau. I think it's www.BBB.org
With many people complaining about the flooding issue, Mazda might issue a recall. For a 30k car, we should never have to be worried about flooding issues. By making Mazda do a recall, they might actually have a real fix and not just hotter plugs.

I've been without my car for five days now as it waits at the dealership to be deflooded, and I don't view this as a BBB problem. The BBB handles unfair business practices. Although my holiday-time service has been poor, the dealership is hardly cheating anyone.

My advice is that we keep posting our experiences. They're listening... I'm sure of it, because the issue is causing them to lose sales. My neighbors watched the car being towed away, the guy in the tow truck asked me what happened, and everyone at work heard about why I had to take Friday off.

I have no idea if the guy knows what he's talking about but there's a "consumer advocate" radio show that's run by a guy named Tom Martino. The show's out of Denver but it's syndicated. He maintains that if you have a Corporate Level issue with a Japanese/Korean car manufacturer, forget it!! He said it's like a "loss of face" thing or something but that you'll never get the Corporate people to admit that there's a problem.

Obviously this is not entirely true since Mazda, Toyota, etc., all do recalls when they have to. However, I wonder if they might not be a bit slower to admit "a fault" such as the firing sequence problem on start-up. Take country of origin out of the picture and you've still got Corporate reputation on the line when you're dealing with an issue like this one. I mean for them to admit it's a design flaw on a crucial part (the engine) which they discovered after the fact is asking them to admit one hell of a lot.

I suspect they'll always downplay the flooding issue by burying it in the manual and I suspect that they'll continue handling issues such as replacement plugs via "normal channels" rather than through formal dealer-notifications.

I've not flooded my car and I never mind jammin' to the stereo for a couple of minutes when it's cold-idling but I am a bit concerned about the day when I have to leave it somewhere long enough for it to entirely cool down for service of some type. I've got my doubts about a non-8-owner caring enough (or understanding enough) to let the engine heat up a bit before killing it (or risking having it die.)

why do you think that mazda did not find this a problem during all the testing that was done leading up to production cars? why was it not reported as an issue by any one of the many reporters who drove the car for testing prior to launch, say at laguna seca? since these were also pre-production cars, one answer could be that the problem didn't happen in pre-production cars. so then what changed? to find an answer to that we could ask if there is a flooding issue in the JDM cars. if there is not than perhaps the ignition system works just fine with the original tuning, but with the (coining a phrase here) "cat-longevity tune" the extra fuel dumped into the mix for cooling combined with the ignition setup is the culprit. something along the lines of canzoomer's leaner tune may help alleviate the flooding issue as a side benefit to it's intended purpose.

I'm sorry I should have been more precise with my post. When I went on the BBB site, there was a link to automobile recalls. Here, it will post all official recalls for every car manufacturer and it also allows you to post a complaint. This site is run by the government and the more complaints they receive regarding the RX8 then Mazda might actually have to answer to the govt. The site is www.recalls.gov and click on motor vehicle recalls. Check it out it has lots of good information.

I don't believe the flooding issue would qualify as a recallable issue with the feds, even if they receive many complaints. Just for kicks, I went through the complaint process. When you get to the "detail" section, you get asked for the following information:

Incident Date :
Was there a Fire :
Number of Fatalities:
Was there a Crash :
Number of Failures:
Property Damage :
Number of Persons Injured:

My guess is that complaints by RX-8 owners about the inconvenience caused by "flooding" are going no where on this site. They're likely to urge you to contact an attorney. A better bet would be the State lemon laws or consumer fraud laws ... but I wouldn't hold my breath on those either, particularly if Mazda is handling the flooding complaints under warranty. In Illinois, as I recall (no pun intended), you need to be without use of the car for 30 business days within the first year on four separate repair incidents before the dealer has to buy back the car -- good luck on that one. (BTW, I'm currently at 3 days, 2 incidents.)

Still, if you feel so inclined, I think the place to start is with the State Attorneys General. They pretty much all have a consumer fraud division, and "consumer fraud" is loosley defined. It would be interesting to know what they have to say.

Addendum:
After a bit more digging, I actually found many investigations on this site of "engine stalling" problems. Hmmm. Maybe the man makes a point.

Zoom 44, I concur with your idea that Mazda should have caught this problem. As for testing and reporters driving at Leguna, the cars were probably warmed up fully and the problem didn't show it's head. Have we heard from many Japanese owners and do they have the same problem? There has to be more short drive cycles and possible cold shut down in Tokyo. .. Wondering if it is more prone to US market or worldwide. Rotarygod.. if there was a fuel delay on initial cranking, as well as a higher speed starter, it could offer a partial fix. Your posts are quite well written and insightful..

Thanks. I try to give some possible easy solutions. I think the problems are fairly obvious but for the life of me I just don't know what Mazda was thinking when they went to this system.

Where can we buy Canzoomer stock?

Too bad Canzoomer only leans out above 5000 rpm. Imagine a starter that could get there!