MrBill

We've thinking about buying an RX-8 as the "mid-life crisis car," but all this talk about the flooding problem / issue / non-problem (depending on your point of view) had us a little worried.

And then the "Is flooding covered under the warranty?" confusion in the forum added a little bit more to consider...

I called a couple of local service departments and asked questions about flooding and the warranty. Naturally, I got different answers.

So I sent an email to Mazda North America and asked them directly.

I can post the full reply for anyone interested, but the bottom line is that they said that the flooding is NOT a common occurrence, Mazda WILL cover the towing and the repair under warranty if the RX-8 does become flooded, and that Mazda is currently testing the engines with heavy duty spark plugs to see if flooding can be prevented (emphasis mine).

It seems like Mazda isn't necessarily admitting that a problem exists, but they seem to be willing to consider the possibility that maybe their design could be made even better.

That's good enough for us. Time to buy!

(And I have no idea what he meant by "heavy duty spark plugs.")

BillK

I don't know - while I'm sure Mazda has a prepared answer for concerned customers, I think it's only prudent that to wait until they do have a solution if the problem concerns you, in case:

1) There is no technological fix

2) The fix requires some type of redesign that is not applicable to previous RX-8s

Arthur

My car has flooded twice this week. The first time I had to have it towed to the dealer, which ate an entire day. I had to listen to the lecture on warming the car up (which I was already doing). Well, it happened again today after I drove it a couple of miles to the grocery store (yes it was warm). When I came back out, it wouldn't start. I did eventually get it started, but I called the dealer and really let them have it. I am not going to deal with this on a regular basis. It's not just a quirk, it's a design flaw and a safety issue. It was 19 degrees today. If I had been in a remote area and couldn't get it started, I would have been in some trouble. I don't car if this car is hot, I want something I can count on.

We all need to report this to the NHTSA. I did earlier today and there are already a few other RX8 flooding complaints on there. You can file a report on-line. Maybe if we all do this, MAZDA will be forced to do something about this.

Arthur

My invoice doesn't have a limiting clause. It flooded again this weekend and I'm taking it in tomorrow, so I guess I'll find out. That's after I give them a piece of my mind regarding this design flaw. I really hate worrying about whether my car is going to start when I need it. Especially when it's 10 degrees outside.

MEGAREDS

Arthur:
Sorry to hear about your car. Can you say whether you have a standard or automatic transmission? Also, what did you do to get the car started?

Winning_BlueRX8

The body shop flooded my car and the dealership is saying somebody flipped the spark plugs around, which caused it to flood, blah blah. I don't have the know-how to do that, and I don't see why the body shop would do it. Anyways, they are trying to say they won't cover it under warranty. The body shop has called several dealerships and gets mixed responses of " Yes, it's covered", and "Yes, the first time is covered". Bullshit I say. If it's a one-time deal, body shop had better pay for it. I'm losing the faith. Are there any auto makers that are honest with its customers?

MEGAREDS

I am operating under the assumption that Mazda has not yet figured out how it is going to service flooded cars. There are three possibilities in my mind as to how this might go:

(1) "basic" warranty coverage - 48 months, or 48,000 miles.
(2) "service adjustment" coverage - 12 months, 12,000 miles.
(3) one-time goodwill coverage - they do what they want whenever they want.

See your warranty for a description of "service adjustment" coverage if you are not familiar with it. It's supposed to be for "adjustments" such as tightening belts, etc.

I put my letter in the mail this afternoon asking them to clarify what their policy will be. I'll let everyone know if I get a response and will post what I find out, if appropriate.

Sorry to hear about your experience, Winning_BlueRX8, but I noticed in reading that the leading and trailing plugs are different. Anyone thinking about trying to deflood their own car needs to proceed with caution. I'd love to see a DIY with pictures posted, if anyone is so inclined.

jonalan

No, not ALL of us. Just those few who have flooded their car and believe this to be an issue.

rieskame

just keep your head buried in the sand

iamcanadian

It is an issue I must admit even though I have yet to flood the 8. I have started it and moved it 5 feet, revved it to 4000 rpm and shut it down many, many times and not once have I had problems starting it afterwards. Yeah issues arise when others move it. I think that you have to remember that rotary's are unique . . . they have a great upside but also have a downside. You should know this buying one. MrBill's post was refreshing. For those that are unfamiliar w/rotaries more disclosure should be provided by Mazda and dealerships . . . and us owners. Just like this post. Do I wish the 8 was perfect, sure do, am I personally willing to live with its deficiencies as is, I sure am. Cheers.

MEGAREDS

There is a TSB "parts flash" on the new plugs which was issued 1/12/04..., but no discussion at all about why one would use them.



Doing a little research on "hot" spark plugs yields this from BP's Australian web site:

Engines that do only short trips and never fully warm up may build up soot deposits around the insulator on the centre electrode of the spark plug. This may short out the spark and cause misfiring. A longer trip periodically may fix the problem but otherwise fitting hotter spark plugs may be necessary to burn off the soot.

I think those of us that have "flooded" our cars may, instead, have really just "fouled" the plugs.

jonalan

My point is, we can't ALL complain to NHTSA, or Mazda, or anyone about a "possible issue" based on what we read on the internet.

I have never flooded my car (knock on wood), or know anyone personally that has, so I can't complain based on heresay.

I think those who have flooded their car, and believe this to be an issue, please.....complain away. Just don't do it based on what you read that could have happened to someone else.

Arthur

Of course I meant those of us that this has happened to. But it's not just a few as you can see from the polls on this site and others if you've looked.

In my research on this car, this issue didn't come up and I definitely was "educated" by the dealer.

After the second flood, the dealer replaced all four spark plugs with the hotter ones. So far no floods, but it has needed extra cranking once or twice. No charge, but still a pain to be continually taking it in.

I had a conversation with a customer service supervisor at Mazda North American Operations yesterday and she started giving me the standard answer that this is a "special" car, etc. I told her I didn't want to hear that from her--the time to hear that was when I was buying it. I told her about this website and all the discussion on this issue and she seemed quite surprised that this many people are having this problem and she was going to take a look at the discussions. I did a search and came up with 70 discussion threads regarding the flooding issue on this site alone.

241Commuter

We can't? It seems to me we'd be a lot more effective that way

Rubbish. A car that I bought in ignorance of the issues turns out to have a 15% chance of flooding in the first six month (extracted roughly from polls on this site). I shouldn't complain?

OK. Let's say Boeing has a flaw in their 777's that causes it to go down 1 every 50,000 takeoffs, and the Bush administration is too distracted to take any notice. It's the only plane that goes where I want to go. Just because it hasn't crashed when I fly it doesn't preclude me from screaming bloody hell. I would expect that everybody who has to fly it, lives under the flight path, has loved ones who fly it, would be screaming bloody hell.

Flooding the car can be exceptionally dangerous. Think of the places you are likely to stall: You stall it taking off on a busy intersection and you're stuck in the middle. You stall it waiting for the green light to meter you through the freeway on-ramp at rush hour. You stall out on a railroad track (my favorite). Yes, I think some proactive bitching is warrented.

I wonder if we are all going to get the hotter leading edge plugs or do we have to wait for the plane to go down first. And, oh yeah, will it make a bit of difference?

MEGAREDS

I've flooded... and complained mightily. But, has anyone ever stalled at an intersection? My flood was after a drive of 30 feet, followed by a shut down. I was towed from my driveway, and I think that's typical from what I've been reading. I am operating under the assumption that once you get to an intersection where you might flood, it'll probably restart after a stall. If anyone has any other experiences besides flooding from home or work, post em. I'd like to hear about it.

rx8cited

How can you say that? Once I drive 100 feet from my house, I'm in an intersection.

I'm sure some people are in a intersection 30 feet from their houses and some probably have railroad tracks they cross within flooding range.

Fortunately, I've never flooded and hope like hell that it does not happen at a time that I'd be stuck in harms way.

rx8cited

sferrett

I think everyone's panicing about this flooding deal more than is really neccessary. My philosophy is the more you worry about it and change your behaviour to try and combat it, the more likely you are to experience it. If you're experiencing it then by all means complain about it and try to figure out what the cause is.

However I wish people wouldn't make it sound like you're gonna flood the car the instant you stall or shut it off cold or look at a railway crossing funny. It's not true. I've been purposefully shutting off and stalling cold to try and flood for the last few days without luck so far.

Forum polls are a very far cry from any kind of realistic statistic. I think this is an issue that affects some people due to some (as yet) undetermined factor (could be a defect in their car, could be driving habit, could be environmental) and for the vast majority of everyone else it won't ever be an issue unless you really try hard.

MEGAREDS

It's only a theory, but it seems to be holding true from the reports I've seen so far. I think this may be because: (1) the AT is more likely to flood than the MT, and the AT is far less likely to stall once its started (i.e., the AT won't stall at an intersection - typically only the MT does that); and (2) if you do get to an intersection, your plan is likely to keep on driving and the rotors have been spinning a bit, so there's not as much excess fuel slopping around in the chambers.

I'm not saying its not possible, just that most of us that have flooded did it to ourselves by shutting the engine down too soon before the car has rolled under its own power very far. In my case, my wife did it by backing the car out of the garage and turning off the ignition. Other people have left their wallets in the house and just instinctively shut their car down to go back to get it. I've heard stories of dealers flooding the car. I'm sure the car floods at car washes and that valets have done it. I'm not saying Mazda shouldn't cover the repair; only that the car has been fairly predictable in its (bad) behavior. Once the car is warm, you can shut it down and start it up at will... that doesn't seem to be a problem. It is possible that the gas in the chamber condenses on the plugs if the car is left to sit cold.

sferrett: try my wife's test... on a cold day, back the car out stone cold, then leave it sit a few hours. I'd be interested in what happens.

241Commuter

Of course it's not true. I know that. If it does happen to you, it will only be once or twice, but it's going to happen exactly the one time when you are distracted over something else important in your life, when you absolutely need it not to happen.


What a trooper. You might never flood it in San Diego, though. It's a good time of year to take your experiment up to Mammoth.

RX-Nut

I know it was posted somewhere.. but there are TONS of flood posts..

Anyone with a quick and dirty answer why this car is "susceptible" to floods on a cold engine vs. a warm one.. what's the difference? and why even flood in the first place?

Arthur

RX-Nut

My dealer told me that it's because this car pushes a lot of fuel when first started and if it isn't given a chance to burn off, it may flood the next time.

My first flood was at home after moving the car out of the garage, but the second time I was at the grocery store and it was about 19 degrees--BTW-the car was fully warmed up when I shut it off and it flooded anyway. When I took it in that time they replaced all four spark plugs.

Again, I say that the more of us who have experienced this who complain the better. The MAZDA North America customer service number is 1-800-222-5500. Ask to speak to a supervisor (the phone rep I spoke to was very uninterested). Also, a complaint to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (the organization that initiates recalls) is also a good idea. You can do it on-line, their website is www.nhtsa.gov The more of us who speak out the more likely MAZDA is to look for a real solution.

As I've said in previous posts, if I had been informed of this prior to purchase this would be a different story. However, I have never owned a rotary engine before and this caught me completely off guard. It's more than a mere annoyance. It's a real pain. Every time I want to run out to get the newspaper or deli, which is a 1/2 mile away I have to drive it around or sit in it for a while before I can shut it off. I don't like to have to think about when I can shut my car off--I have too many other things going on. What a pain!!!

Ioman

And this can happen with any car, not just the RX8. My wife used to move the Inifiniti and Nissan we had without warming it up, and it would take forever to start the next time.

I have not had any hard starts at all with the RX8, at least nothing the sets it apart from any other car.

iamcanadian

Arthur, and everyone else that is paranoid to take the car to the corner store, I have taken the car a few blocks away and shut it down with no flooding problems. Remember to do the simple rev to 4000 or so, hold for a second and shut it down while the revs are up there. I cannot garauntee that it will work but I can say, and many others on this board will admit, that it has worked for them with no problems. Of course, the best thing to do is to drive for a few extra blocks and get the temp up.

AF-RX8

Wouldn't doing this possibly cause more gas to get into the engine since your foot is slill on the gas pedal while you turn it off or revving to 4000, holiding the foot on the gas for one second, then when you shut off you take your foot off the gas ?

Sorry to make you spell this out so specifically but I want to make sure I do this right . . . . also are you doing this everytime you shut the car off or only when it's cold

TurboSE

This would work if you rev it up, let off the pedal and then shut it down before the revs drop too much. Assuming offcourse that the ecu cuts the fuel out on deceleration until the rpm drops off to a certain level. If you revved it up and shut it off with your foot still on the pedal you probably make it worse.
I still can't believe after so many years of rotary experience, mazda can't get it right. This is more of an ecu programming problem than a problem due to the basic design of the rotary block. There is a better solution than just printing a warning about cold shut downs. All you guys that are pissed off have a right to be.