p_rx-8

Hi guys
I have never driven an automatic.
BUT sometimes, driving my manual Rx-8, with its immense RPM range, it feels like driving an automatic one. Sometimes - especially within the city limits - I stay on second or third gear for quite a long time, because it does not feel like it needs to be shifted... Ok, ok, I exaggerate, but have you ever thought of / felt that?

Animagix

uh...... what?

JRichter

Yes, when just cat'n around I can usually stay in 3rd most of the time...

NoTears316

Yeah, I guess. Like when on the interstate in 6th gear...

8at18

where I live I do mostly 45mph or higher so i'm in 5th and 6th alot to save on the old wallet when i have to filler up but when I drive into the city I will be in third a lot but I don't see how that relates to having an auto.

Moumtz

How is that driving like an automatic though? In an Auto, it'd constantly be changing gears.

cjkim

Dro

If its not gonna go under 2K i will keep it in the highest gear possible ... I guess you dont like saving gas

vectorwolf

I can't bring myself to do that... I'm always worried about straining the engine/drivetrain at lower rpms, so I try to keep it revved whenever I'm accelerating. Anytime I'm gaining speed, or on even a slight incline, I'll downshift to keep the engine at least above 3k, if not slightly higher.

But, people do often comment that my super-smooth l33t shifting technique makes them feel like they're in an automatic.

guy321

I think he means that you can stay in 1st/2nd almost the entire time when driving in town without shifting?

Dro

so wait ... driving at lower RPMs puts strain on the engine ?

por que ¿

i thought it would just save gas ! [so long as its not below 2K] oh my

Krankor

Sounds like a crock to me. Unless you're talking about RPM so low that you're actually lugging the engine.

Dro

^ now thats what I thought !

hence the 2K comment

lshu

I usually put both hands on the wheel when driving on the freeway in 6th, so it kind of looks like I'm driving an automatic...

yiksing

The best way to drive a manual is to emulate an automatic transmission except for the coasting part.

Urchin

Why, much of the fun of drivcing the 8 is the shifting.

daisuke

I hope they never substitute the manual tranny for one of those SMG pieces of crap, I'd like to keep driving a real stickshift for a loooong time to come.

and no, driving a manual will never be like driving an automatic no matter what the RPM range.

cjkim

why are SMG pieces of crap? from what I've read, they offer no real disadvantages, except for the fact the whole concept of a manual transmission is gone.

yiksing

There are still a lot of stuff you cannot do with the SMG type of transmission such as:
1. Shifting down more than 1 gear at a time (Don't say it's pointless coz it can be useful at time; an extra tool in your bag)

2. Purposely engaging the clutch so the engine revs higher and yielding more power later when disengaged. Useful especially in high rpm NA. Check out how Tsuchiya intentionally do this in a Honda when he knows he will be airborne for a split second when he use the zebra zone.

3. Intentionally losing traction by popping clutch.

4. SMG does not allow downshift if it knows it will redline in lower gears (which is good) but sometimes a driver can gain an advantage by overrevving just a little (very little) during downshifting. So basically if you downshift when SMG doesn't allow, you are not in full control of your car.

5. A driver doesn't feel connected with the car since you can't feel the clutch and what the transmission is doing.

6. If SMG do fail, you are gonna expect huge repair bills.

cjkim

sorry about that, i mean't no "real-world" disadvantages since this topic pretty much focuses on city driving. and i also mistook SMG for many of the other acryonyms like DSG and so forth.
but still, the main point of my reply was "why are SMG (or any other semi-auto trannys) crap? it seems so many people are so die hard fans of the manual that anything that doesn't have a clutch is so easily dismissed as crap." that's all. Don't get me wrong, I drive a manual too and I love feeling "connected to the car" as you describe, but I admit that technology is certainly getting better, and I believe at some point in the not so distant future, the manual transmission (performance wise) will just plainly be inferior to this new breed of transmissions. I love the manual tranny, but I just can't dismiss other trannys for "crap" just because it doesn't have a clutch.

yiksing

As much as I love a pure manual, I think its inevitable that all cars will sooner or later be equipped with SMG like sequential manual transmission because it simply performs better than any human can shift.

Krankor

Well, if that's true, then I guess it's time for me to diminish my ignorance. What exactly is SMG and what makes it so good (actually or potentially)?

daisuke

SMG is what BMW calls it's electrohydraulic manual gearbox, it's basically a manual transmission without a clutch pedal, the computer does all the clutching for you.

When at first I got in the car and realized it was an SMG I thought COOL!!! with a big smile on my face, 10 seconds into the drive it was gone and replaced by a sour face. After driving it for a bit longer I've managed to learn to live with it, but I sure as hell don't enjoy driving it. (let me point out that I'm visiting my parents for a few weeks and driving their car with the SMG)

I've driven one in a citroen car and it gives you the chance to either shift yourself or put it in an automatic mode where it shifts for you:

-Auto mode SUCKS with all caps, every time it shifts; yours and everyone else's head goes forward and then gets jerked back.

-In manual mode you can make the shifts seamless but when you're trying to start from a standing stop or a really slow roll it feels like you just gave control of the clutch to a 15 year old newbie driver, and it's really jerky or it just slips the clutch too much. Add to that that you can hit the paddles wrong and the gear you want won't go in when you really need it to (my dad got backed into by a truck because he couldn't get the car to go into reverse when he needed it to). I can also shift just as fast as the SMG box so that's no advantage.

Also, in an automatic gearbox, when you're in drive or reverse you always have some power to the wheels and you have to stay on the brake when you're stopped at a light, with the SMG you're in neutral when stopped... so you think... fine, that's really smart. Then you try and back up or go forward when parked on a hill... and as soon as you take your foot off the brake you start rolling the way you probably don't want to go. I can do an inclined start a hell of a lot better than this computer can.

And all real drawbacks aside, there is still the fact that you're not in control of that clutch, you're leaving it to a computer which has no idea of what is going on outside of the transmission.

I understand that ferrari makes a nearly perfect SMG, so does BMW to a lesser extent, but I'm talking about affordable cars here too, and the truth is that after driving one, I'll probably never buy one unless it's been perfected considerably.

I'm sure that if you get used to it's quirks you wouldn't mind it that much, but I think that it combines the boring aspect of the automatic, with the drawbacks of the manual gearbox. I'd rather have the predictability and reliability of the automatic with paddle shifters than the SMG... but of course I wouldn't mind a ferrari even if it had the SMG box. But BY ALLS MEANS I'd rather have a regular old manual tranny.

SMG and automatics aren't for true drivers unless you're in some way unable to drive one, and if I was... I'd probably still take the auto.

yiksing

So far the only good ones is the DSG from VW, it doesn't have the SMG head jerking thing. I think it was criticised in BMI as well regarding the SMG.

SMG can do better rev matching than the average driver especially in downshift, it can shift faster. Its main use is a driver can concentrate more on brake pedal work instead of worrying about rev-matching at the same time. Big plus is easier to drive in traffic jams and racing without the weaknesses of torque converter equipped automatics.

Krankor

Thanks for the explanations, guys. There's clearly more to it than I realized, and I guess it does have some advantages. Still, I think I'll stick to my good old manual clutch for the foreseeable future.