MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Mazda has passed an edict that specifically forbids their techs from even loosening a torsion bolt on the Renesis.
Now, I bet there will be a few techs that will take on the job on the side, but stealerships will still be under mandate to use remans.

The problem is, when a motor fails, whatever the mode of failure, it requires nearly all of the parts to be replaced. Gone are the days of relapping the irons, grinding a few thousandths off of the housing and throwing in new seals.
If a chamber fails, ALL of the hard parts have to go away.

Ghadrack

Oh I have no doubt that Mazda will want it handled that way, but when you start talking 5 to 7 grand, some entrepenuer is going to put 1 and 1 together and find that post warranty most people aren't going to be willing to pay the stealership 7K for a new engine when someone can rebuild it privately for less than half the cost.

I don't have a clue what rebuilding a Renensis requires aside from a few thread i have read here, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that there will be a few mechanics around who will get it down to a science before the last of these beautiful cars has left the road.

We are a throw away society when it is cheap and convenient, when it is expensive and ludicrous, we want it fixed.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I am already in the process of stockpiling motors from the yards. It is cheaper to swap than rebuild.

Zephyrzone

My other car is 2001 Acura CL Type S. If you are at all familiar with this car then you already know where this post is going.

Go over to the Acura community (www.acurazine.com) and browse the "Automatic Transmission Recall Q & A" sub-forum. It doesn't matter what thread you read, you're likely to see posts that make the 8 engine problems look tame. Hundreds of thousands of affected vehicles and no real fix was ever implemented. Honda extended the auto transmission warranty to 100k miles and added components (some type of direct oiling system, cooler and ECU flash I believe) during the recall but the transmissions still failed and continue to fail.

The Acura CL Type S Auto was worse than than most other Honda vehicles due to its high output (260HP 232torque) and "sport" (read as "slamming") shifts, but every Honda Accord based auto model was affected. The CL's would start slipping out of gear, then would downshift at highway speeds from 5th to 2nd usually causing major accidents and (sometimes) injury or death.

Regardless of year almost every forum member had their transmission replaced at least once. Many owners are on their 3rd and 4th. Some owners lost their lives or the lives of loved ones due to the nature of the problem. Honda, working with the NHTSA downplayed the problem- Honda/Acura did very well in the PR damage-control department- but the recall was eventually issued.

Who would ever have thought that a higher-end Honda Accord would have such horrific problems? The intent of this post isn't to undermine the numerous problems many 8 owners have. Rather I figured I'd post this as testimony that there are supposedly "bullet-proof" vehicles that have MAJOR and WIDESPREAD mechanical failures. Unless you're part of those communities, you might never know.

---

Don't want to hi-jack, just curious: I know the 3rd gen 7's were notoriously problematic. What about the previous generations?

Gotian

I made a mistake on my post, the 5th gen celicas were the ones with the cruise control recall and the 6th gen is the one i had with the tranny problem

New Yorker

Here's more info about the BMW M3 engine failures:

http://yoy.com/yoy/auto/m3_failintro.shtml

http://members.roadfly.org/jason/m3engines.htm

The BMW Service Action highlights…

BMW SERVICE ACTION ON M3 S54 ENGINES - AUGUST 2004

(Q1) Why is BMW announcing a service action on M3 S54 engines?
(A1) We have determined that certain BMW M3s with S54 engines could experience premature engine damage. The engine connecting rod bearings were not manufactured to BMW quality standards. As a result, the bearings can overheat and fail prematurely if the vehicle is operated at higher engine speeds over an extended period.

(Q2) How many cars are affected by the service action?
(A2) Approximately 20,000 M3s are affected in the US (48.000 Worldwide).

(Q3) Which models are affected?
(A3) BMW M3 Coupe/Convertible equipped with S54 engines and produced between February 12, 2001 and May 22, 2003.

(Q4) How many M3s with S54 engines in total were sold in the US?
(A4) Approximately 28,600 M3s with S54 engines have been sold in the US to date.

(Q5) How did BMW become aware of the problem?
(A5) BMW became aware of the problem through its own quality control processes.

(Q6) What is the reason for the defect?
(A6) The connecting rod bearings were not manufactured to BMW quality standards. As a result, connecting rod bearings are susceptible to overheating and subsequent premature failure if the vehicle is operated at higher engine speeds over an extended period.

(Q7) How do the driver become aware of the problem?
(A7) If the connecting rod bearings were to fail, the damage is often accompanied by engine knocking or a loud rattling noise. If this were to occur, the driver should pull over to a safe location, turn the ignition off and call BMW Roadside Assistance…

(Q8) Is this a safety issue?
(A8) No, this is a long-term durability issue. The vehicle can still be operated with no immediate need to have the repairs carried out. The driver would become aware of the problem if the engine started knocking or making a loud rattling noise. If this were to occur, the driver should pull over to a safe location, turn the ignition off and call BMW Roadside Assistance at…

(Q9) What is the solution to the problem?
(A9) The affected cars will require replacement of the connecting rod bearings and the engine management system will be programmed with the latest software.

(Q10) BMW conducted a service action in March 2003 for an internal engine problem. How is this service action different?
(A10) Our original investigation identified a problem with contamination of the engine lubricating system during assembly and unfavorable tolerances in the engine oil pump in M3 S54 engines produced from October 2001 through February 2002. The current service action addresses a quality issue with the engine connecting rod bearings which can result in premature wear.

(Q11) How many cars have experienced this engine damage?
(A11) To date, only a small percentage of cars have experienced engine damage caused by premature connecting rod bearing wear.

(Q12) Is BMW aware of any accidents or injuries attributed to the problem?
(A12) No.

(Q13) Will BMW initiate a recall?
(A13) No, this issue will be addressed through a service action.

(Q17) Can customers continue to drive their cars?
(A17) Yes. However, BMW recommends affected customers schedule an appointment for the repair with an authorized BMW center as soon as possible. In the unlikely event that your engine is knocking or making a rattling noise, please pull over to a safe location, turn the ignition off and call…

(Q18) Does my M3 Coupe/Convertible have a 6-year/100,000 mile engine warranty extension?
(A18) To show our commitment to customers, BMW provided this warranty to all 2001, 2002 and 2003 model years BMW's with S54 engines.

(Q19) Why is the M roadster/coupe not affected by this service action?
(A19) The design of the M roadster/coupe is different from the M3 Coupe/Convertible. Most important, the M roadster/coupe has a lower maximum speed, 7600 rpm vs. 8000 rpm in the M3 Coupe/Convertible. As a result, the connecting rod bearings are not subjected to the same stress as thos in a M3 Coupe/Convertible.

(Q22) The engine in my M3 was previously replaced. Does the service action still need to be performed?
(A22) It depends on the production date of the replacement engine. The customer should consult with the authorized center or customer relations to confirm whether the vehicle is affected.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Now, compare this response and the countermeasure to what Mazda is doing.
First, Mazda is calling the engine replacement program an "emissions" issue (dodging responsibility).
Second, Mazda does not acknowledge what the problem is, physically.
Third, Mazda does not give estimates of the exact number of motors affected (since it could be all of them).
Fourth, Mazda isn't just replacing some internal part, they swap the entire motor.
Obviously, in this respect, BMW has more faith in their techs than Mazda. Maybe that is what $50k buys you.

Stavesacre21

I think we're getting a little obsessed with out cause now lol

limepro

what mechanic honestly doesnt know how a piston engine works? im not a mechanic and i can and have fully rebuilt a piston engine.

now whats the ratio of rotary mechanics to piston engine mechanics? if mazda had rotary specific mechanics i bet they would replace just what needs to be but they dont so they send it to the rotary specific mechanics in japan. so instead of you having to wait for your engine to get back from japan you get a different motor which would you rather wait for?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

However, they do have rotary-specific mechanics in US garages.
A few of the local dealerships have them. My old dealership in Maryland had two. One would ONLY come in to work on RX-7 rebuilds. They call them "Rotary-Certified".
The Renesis is different in that Mazda will not allow the techs to crack it open (at least not under warranty).
As I noted in a different thread, it will start to get interesting once the engine replacement become "owner-pay" repairs instead of warranty items.

limepro

well you are lucky then lol the 5 dealerships i have been to never had a rotary certified tech, the dealer i go to now has a guy that knows a bit but i probably wouldnt want him breaking mine apart i would probably wanna do it myself

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Where are you located?

mac11

iTrader: (1)

Thats what buying a piston motor gets you. Every ******* gear head in america can feel confident rebuilding a piston motor. You and I both know the simplicity of rebuilding a wankel motor but we all know just how afraid of them people are.

That being said I agree that Mazda techs should be trained throughly in this motor and should be able to handle a rebuild in house.

kersh4w

iTrader: (3)

the only thing that suprises me is that MM's avatar is a cartoon now

limepro

hes a nerd...i think MM is gonna come burn my house down now!!!

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Sit tight. It changes every so often...

Only if you live in a trailer!

Modern piston motors have come a log way from the venerable GM 350. The tolerances are much tighter and the balance is more critical.
Personally, I'd be afraid to crack a BMW piston motor without some training.

PhotoMunkey

If a "chamber fails"... Do you know for a certainty that this is a chamber failure issue? I was under the impression that this was just a "seal coking" issue, with the remans reusing both the housings, the sides, and the rotors.

Shini

New Yorker, I like the enthusiasm. Maybe you should be the President of Mazda instead of the president of these engine failure threads

@MM: Now Easy1's avatars ARE hotter than yours.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

According the the Williams Technology folks, they reuse only a fraction of the parts from the motors that come in.
Mostly just rotors, the occasional end plate and e-shaft. Surprisingly, it seems that they will reuse whatever seals they can as well.

The problem with the peanut is that it gets fairly well trashed by the apex seals in a low-lube scenario since the SIP is not as hard as those seals.

'Tis just a phase...

Zephyrzone

someone's looking forward to The Simpsons movie.

I think my next one will be Quagmire.

PhotoMunkey

So, the best way to prevent this low-lube scenario is...? Slightly heavier oil? Any thoughts as to whether this tends to affect the "overly rich-running RX-8s" more than the others? Excess fuel washing down the apex seals and chamber walls? Just searching for a commonality here.

MM- How many spare engines have you accumulated so far? What's your average price paid.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Only way to do it at present is a lot of pre-mix or a phsical modification to the metering needles in the OMP. (Or both.)

I haven't purchased any motors yet.
I have three available to me at the moment here in Phoenix (5 if you count the two 4-ports).
I can get them for about $1800 to $2200.

PhotoMunkey

Any word on whether Mazda thinks their last "emissions recall" for the OMP metering has actually solved the problem? Are we seeing failures from cars not originally included in the VIN list of the recall?

limepro

sorry missed this, bought the car in cali been to the dealer in san diego and fresno (fresno dealership was friendly but wouldnt trust them to break apart the engine) and now north carolina went to a few until i found lumberton mazda which has excellent service still wouldnt want them to break open the engine.

T-von

I agree about the rotary not being to user friendly for the average consumer however, the Renesis rotary's major source for the recall has been due to this engines (Renesis) excessive amounts of carbon build-up and plug fouling that hurts the engines compression. From day one I always felt the side exhaust port could cause these problems. Mazda never had such a serious problem like this on it's older peripheral exhaust ported rotary's. If Mazda of America knew anything about this engine, they could have easily prevented all these unnecessary recalls and just simply had the dealers perform carbon cleanings from day one as a required part of this engines maintenance.

This service could have been provided to the consumer free of charge during the warranty period. Having this service twice a year would have cost Mazda next to nothing when compared to doing an engine recall and paying techs and dealers hellacious money just to remove the engine and install a reman. Doing this would have saved the company millions in warranty engine replacements. Do any of you even know what Mazda is actually doing with the remans they send to have rebuilt? Low mileage engines are opened and cleaned, get new apex seals, teflon coated rotors to fight carbon build up, and a new gasket kit. Sounds pretty simple huh? That's really all the engine needs. Everything else inside the engine isn't even worn down enough to warrant replacing since everything else will be well with-in spec. Carbon cleaning service would have cost Mazda maybe only $100.00 a year per vehicle and not thousands for a reman.

I've owned more than enough rotary's to know what Mazda could have easily done to keep these engines out of the shop. I'm very disappointed that Mazda avoided doing something so simple and at the very least could have really improved the rotary's reputation for reliability by doing this little proceedure as factory paid maintenance. Now with sales of the Rx8 dwindling (largely due to the past recall and people still having problems), it just makes it even harder to justify to Ford to continue on with the technology. Mazda of America needs to wake up.