Dealer responds to 3 major owner concerns
11-25-2003, 11:36 AM
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Dealer responds to 3 major owner concerns
This might be very interesting to the folks that are sitting on the sidelines about buying a RX-8 (like me) due to the problems that have been posted on this and other sites. I sent an e-mail to my local dealer telling them that I am interested, but feel very hesitant to dive in based on the problems I have read from existing owners.
I perceive these problems to be:
1. Check engine and oil lights coming on for no reason
2. Mileage worse than the stated 18/24
I have seen as low as 13 reported with mixed driving.
Consumer Reports got 14 in their tests.
3. Flooding problem where it will not start and needs a tow
Here is the reply I received this morning from the Sales Manager:
"First I want to thank you for the opportunity you have afforded us, in addressing your transportation needs. More importantly however, are your stated concerns regarding the RX8.
Concern #1 - As is the case, with all manufacturers, the most sophisticated computer technology has been integrated in the production. A bulletin has been issued, that there have been some models which the lights have remained on, and a re-flash of the PCM (powertrain control module) is the fix - with
no re-occurences afterwards.
Concern#2 - The rotary engine has never been known for its economical gas mileage. Whether it was enthusiastically mis-stated or a legitimate concern, I dont see any future models improving upon its current performance.
Concern#3 - The design of the rotary is such that when the engine is not warm, there are specific instructions regarding a cold start or shut down of the vehicle. A failure to comply with these requirements will result in the flooding of the vehicle. Once someone understands the cold start and shut off procedure - there have not been re-occurences. As is the case with other high performance sports cars, they all have specific identities - and are certainly not 'just another car', and can't be driven or maintained in that manner.
I trust I have addressed these concerns in a manner conducive to your re-thinking the purchase of a 2004 RX8."
I don't see anything here that makes me get off the sidelines so I plan to hang to this list and perhaps talk to them again when the 2005 model comes out. I'm not paying +/- $30K for the privilege of reading all the magazines in the waiting area of their service center. I went through that with a much less expensive car (1985 Pontiac Fiero) and do not wish to repeat it even if they were to sell me the car at dealer invoice.
I perceive these problems to be:
1. Check engine and oil lights coming on for no reason
2. Mileage worse than the stated 18/24
I have seen as low as 13 reported with mixed driving.
Consumer Reports got 14 in their tests.
3. Flooding problem where it will not start and needs a tow
Here is the reply I received this morning from the Sales Manager:
"First I want to thank you for the opportunity you have afforded us, in addressing your transportation needs. More importantly however, are your stated concerns regarding the RX8.
Concern #1 - As is the case, with all manufacturers, the most sophisticated computer technology has been integrated in the production. A bulletin has been issued, that there have been some models which the lights have remained on, and a re-flash of the PCM (powertrain control module) is the fix - with
no re-occurences afterwards.
Concern#2 - The rotary engine has never been known for its economical gas mileage. Whether it was enthusiastically mis-stated or a legitimate concern, I dont see any future models improving upon its current performance.
Concern#3 - The design of the rotary is such that when the engine is not warm, there are specific instructions regarding a cold start or shut down of the vehicle. A failure to comply with these requirements will result in the flooding of the vehicle. Once someone understands the cold start and shut off procedure - there have not been re-occurences. As is the case with other high performance sports cars, they all have specific identities - and are certainly not 'just another car', and can't be driven or maintained in that manner.
I trust I have addressed these concerns in a manner conducive to your re-thinking the purchase of a 2004 RX8."
I don't see anything here that makes me get off the sidelines so I plan to hang to this list and perhaps talk to them again when the 2005 model comes out. I'm not paying +/- $30K for the privilege of reading all the magazines in the waiting area of their service center. I went through that with a much less expensive car (1985 Pontiac Fiero) and do not wish to repeat it even if they were to sell me the car at dealer invoice.
11-25-2003, 12:22 PM
#2
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you should read this post:
click here
I've had zero problems with 4500 miles, and averaging 18 mpg (about 70% city driving).
click here
I've had zero problems with 4500 miles, and averaging 18 mpg (about 70% city driving).
11-25-2003, 12:42 PM
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Hey, That response would convince me. Why?
1) He is honest and not blowing smoke up your ***
2) He says "transportation needs"...that is about the most unsexy way of describing a car like the RX8. Funny stuff.
3) He is basically saying, "It is what it is". No surprises, no funny stuff....the rotary is indeed not like any other car and cannot be treated that way.
Don't hold your breath. The issues that were addressed here will not be fixed by 2005...they will never be fixed (except for maybe the CEL issue). The fact is a rotary engine is not fuel efficient, and will flood if you do not know how to operate properly. Real simple fix for this, don't start it cold and then shut it off.
If you cannot work around these issues, then I would definitely look elsewhere for your "transportation needs":D as these issues are inherent with a rotary engine sports car.
Happy Rotoring,
Kurt G.
1) He is honest and not blowing smoke up your ***
2) He says "transportation needs"...that is about the most unsexy way of describing a car like the RX8. Funny stuff.
3) He is basically saying, "It is what it is". No surprises, no funny stuff....the rotary is indeed not like any other car and cannot be treated that way.
Don't hold your breath. The issues that were addressed here will not be fixed by 2005...they will never be fixed (except for maybe the CEL issue). The fact is a rotary engine is not fuel efficient, and will flood if you do not know how to operate properly. Real simple fix for this, don't start it cold and then shut it off.
If you cannot work around these issues, then I would definitely look elsewhere for your "transportation needs":D as these issues are inherent with a rotary engine sports car.
Happy Rotoring,
Kurt G.
11-25-2003, 01:26 PM
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The car may not be for you.
I have three thousand miles on my car and have not had one iota of a problem. No lights, 18-20 MPG in largely city driving, and no flooding. The flooding thing is completely within your control, and all you have to do is let the car warm up before you shut it down, which you should do with any car, but in a rotary the fouling is apparently pretty powerful.
As things go, this intital new car purchase has gone swimmingly for me. I have not had one recall nor light nor problem. It runs well as a car, and I dig it, but if you are concerned about having a car in which you won't have to think about repairs and reliability, then I would certainly think about another car and preferrably one which has been in production for a while. Performance cars are often a probelm this way ask any Porsche owner. There are lots of fun cars out there around at this price which might suit your needs better. Definitely shop around.
One other thing, since you are living in New Hampshire you might want to consider winter driving needs. The car comes with a Tire Pressure Monitioring System that lights a light if the tires are under or over inflated. If you buy new rims for snow tires this light will most likely be lit all winter. I'm putting electrical tape over mine for the winter, but I thought that this might be interesting for you to know as well. All the best, and keep asking questions! It's the only way to learn before dropping that bundle of money.
I have three thousand miles on my car and have not had one iota of a problem. No lights, 18-20 MPG in largely city driving, and no flooding. The flooding thing is completely within your control, and all you have to do is let the car warm up before you shut it down, which you should do with any car, but in a rotary the fouling is apparently pretty powerful.
As things go, this intital new car purchase has gone swimmingly for me. I have not had one recall nor light nor problem. It runs well as a car, and I dig it, but if you are concerned about having a car in which you won't have to think about repairs and reliability, then I would certainly think about another car and preferrably one which has been in production for a while. Performance cars are often a probelm this way ask any Porsche owner. There are lots of fun cars out there around at this price which might suit your needs better. Definitely shop around.
One other thing, since you are living in New Hampshire you might want to consider winter driving needs. The car comes with a Tire Pressure Monitioring System that lights a light if the tires are under or over inflated. If you buy new rims for snow tires this light will most likely be lit all winter. I'm putting electrical tape over mine for the winter, but I thought that this might be interesting for you to know as well. All the best, and keep asking questions! It's the only way to learn before dropping that bundle of money.
11-25-2003, 02:04 PM
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that's gotta be the most well-written email any car salesman has ever penned throughout the history of mankind...not to mention the most honest and "I don't give a s**T if you buy my car - here's the facts"....I'd buy from that guy in a heartbeat.
11-25-2003, 02:29 PM
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I am coming up on 4000 miles and have had zero problems with my RX8. I live in New England and have owned two RX7's and 2 Miatas before this vehicle.
What a pleasure to drive. The biggest "issue" to date was taking care of the snow tires but that was resolved with 225/40/18's Dunlop M92's which even the mounting tire dealer said that I "stole" on eBay (what would a Florida tire dealer need these for anyway?!?)
This choice saved me $1000.00 over the recommended Blizzaks and I did not have to fool with the tire sensors.
I read about an occasional problem here that is usually resolved by the dealership quickly and professionally. Gas mileage is probably a little under-stated, however, I find the 89 octane runs perfectly so I am getting a little back over the 91 grade.
That said, again walking out to my car from the store there were 3 people "checking out" my RX8. Where can you get the attention and driving fun for such a worthwhile and moderately priced vehicle?
What a pleasure to drive. The biggest "issue" to date was taking care of the snow tires but that was resolved with 225/40/18's Dunlop M92's which even the mounting tire dealer said that I "stole" on eBay (what would a Florida tire dealer need these for anyway?!?)
This choice saved me $1000.00 over the recommended Blizzaks and I did not have to fool with the tire sensors.I read about an occasional problem here that is usually resolved by the dealership quickly and professionally. Gas mileage is probably a little under-stated, however, I find the 89 octane runs perfectly so I am getting a little back over the 91 grade.
That said, again walking out to my car from the store there were 3 people "checking out" my RX8. Where can you get the attention and driving fun for such a worthwhile and moderately priced vehicle?
11-25-2003, 03:57 PM
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Dealer's response to #2 misses the mark
The historical performance of rotary engines is immaterial. Mazda has claimed that Renesis provides a large improvement in that area.
Furthermore, the mpg discrepency has nothing to do with "enthusiastic mis-statement". The 18/24 figures are from the EPA, not Mazda. I am also concerned that there are reports of vehicles running substantially below these figures. A 5 mpg deficit on a car that only claims 18 mpg to begin with is a huge difference - nearly 30%! It is worrisome that such a wide disparity in economy is reported among owners. Perhaps it is due to driving style, but some of the extreme examples do seem to indicate at least scattered problems with the car itself.
I will be expecting my vehicle to get reasonably close to the EPA figures. Meaning, after break-in if I put it in cruise at 65mph on a flat highway with no wind it better damn well get near 24mpg, not 16.
Did get off the sidelines though
Concern#2 - The rotary engine has never been known for its economical gas mileage. Whether it was enthusiastically mis-stated or a legitimate concern, I dont see any future models improving upon its current performance.
The historical performance of rotary engines is immaterial. Mazda has claimed that Renesis provides a large improvement in that area.
Furthermore, the mpg discrepency has nothing to do with "enthusiastic mis-statement". The 18/24 figures are from the EPA, not Mazda. I am also concerned that there are reports of vehicles running substantially below these figures. A 5 mpg deficit on a car that only claims 18 mpg to begin with is a huge difference - nearly 30%! It is worrisome that such a wide disparity in economy is reported among owners. Perhaps it is due to driving style, but some of the extreme examples do seem to indicate at least scattered problems with the car itself.
I will be expecting my vehicle to get reasonably close to the EPA figures. Meaning, after break-in if I put it in cruise at 65mph on a flat highway with no wind it better damn well get near 24mpg, not 16.
Did get off the sidelines though
11-25-2003, 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by paendragon
that's gotta be the most well-written email any car salesman has ever penned throughout the history of mankind...not to mention the most honest and "I don't give a s**T if you buy my car - here's the facts"....I'd buy from that guy in a heartbeat.
that's gotta be the most well-written email any car salesman has ever penned throughout the history of mankind...not to mention the most honest and "I don't give a s**T if you buy my car - here's the facts"....I'd buy from that guy in a heartbeat.
11-25-2003, 04:44 PM
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Is the emergency start procedure reliable or not? I've not flooded my car (yet), but I am operating under the impression that if I do, I will be able to put things right without much difficulty by following the procedures set out in the manual. If I am correct, the third problem is just not a big deal. I wish your dealer had said that in his letter, and I am concerned that he didn't.
Are people unfamiliar with what to do if the car floods? My understanding is that the RX-8 has a built-in fuel cut-off for starting a flooded car... doesn't it? Just hold down the accelerator pedal as you crank for 10 seconds at a time. Wait. Do it again.
I get sick when I read some people are getting 13mpg. My AT is holding on at about 19mpg at 700 miles. That's close enough for me to love the car. I would not have bought the RX-8 if I knew that 13mpg was a possibility. Guess things all worked out. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. As I said, I really am happy with the car and just hope things continue. No problems yet, with the exception of an embarrasing seat-belt incident which is the topic of another thread.
A Bit Off Topic
As for snow tires, my plan is not to drive the RX-8 when there is any moisture on the road this winter, and buy winter tires next winter. Is buying an extra set of sensors really that bad an option? No one seems to be suggesting it. They are, after all, supposed to be a safety feature. Perhaps I'm letting my occupation as a government lawyer affect my judgment, but deliberately disconnecting a safety feature that's been mandated by NTSB seems... imprudent. There was a time when people cut the seat belts out of their cars; no one would think of doing that today. I had a blow out in a car once. I'm glad to have survived it. I know our friends in Canada don't care, but [insert good-natured insult at our friends in Canada here].
I'm glad I'm no longer on the fence... I was miserable for three months. Good luck.
Is the emergency start procedure reliable or not? I've not flooded my car (yet), but I am operating under the impression that if I do, I will be able to put things right without much difficulty by following the procedures set out in the manual. If I am correct, the third problem is just not a big deal. I wish your dealer had said that in his letter, and I am concerned that he didn't.
Are people unfamiliar with what to do if the car floods? My understanding is that the RX-8 has a built-in fuel cut-off for starting a flooded car... doesn't it? Just hold down the accelerator pedal as you crank for 10 seconds at a time. Wait. Do it again.
I get sick when I read some people are getting 13mpg. My AT is holding on at about 19mpg at 700 miles. That's close enough for me to love the car. I would not have bought the RX-8 if I knew that 13mpg was a possibility. Guess things all worked out.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed. As I said, I really am happy with the car and just hope things continue. No problems yet, with the exception of an embarrasing seat-belt incident which is the topic of another thread.A Bit Off Topic
As for snow tires, my plan is not to drive the RX-8 when there is any moisture on the road this winter, and buy winter tires next winter. Is buying an extra set of sensors really that bad an option? No one seems to be suggesting it. They are, after all, supposed to be a safety feature. Perhaps I'm letting my occupation as a government lawyer affect my judgment, but deliberately disconnecting a safety feature that's been mandated by NTSB seems... imprudent. There was a time when people cut the seat belts out of their cars; no one would think of doing that today. I had a blow out in a car once. I'm glad to have survived it. I know our friends in Canada don't care, but [insert good-natured insult at our friends in Canada here].
I'm glad I'm no longer on the fence... I was miserable for three months. Good luck.
11-25-2003, 05:45 PM
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Concern#2 - The rotary engine has never been known for its economical gas mileage. Whether it was enthusiastically mis-stated or a legitimate concern, I dont see any future models improving upon its current performance.
........hahaha...thats a good one.....mazdz should have just "enthusiastically mistated" the mileage to be 500mpg...
still a great car though.......zoom....
........hahaha...thats a good one.....mazdz should have just "enthusiastically mistated" the mileage to be 500mpg...
still a great car though.......zoom....
11-25-2003, 06:13 PM
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My dealer warned me about this at delivery
My salesman told me explicitly to not turn the car on and then turn it off immediately -- he said the engine requires a warm-up period of a few minutes before shutting down. Following his direction, I haven't had any problems...
11-25-2003, 07:57 PM
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The ECU light has been solve in the few early models. The gas mileage has been a issue that can't be easily solved. I think most cars now will geat 15-17 mpg in the city and 21-24 on the highway. I get 18.3 to 18.9 in 50/50 driving. Just for reference my 1997 Honda Accord would not start the same way as the RX8. If you just started it backed it out of the garage and shut it down. OK, it did it 3 times in 6 years and 130,000 miles because we forgot. I just floored it and worked it until it started. I only had to run it about 3-4 min to warm it up a bit not alot to0 prevent it.
11-25-2003, 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by Nubo
Dealer's response to #2 misses the mark
...snip...
Furthermore, the mpg discrepency has nothing to do with "enthusiastic mis-statement". The 18/24 figures are from the EPA, not Mazda. ...snip...
[/B]
Dealer's response to #2 misses the mark
...snip...
Furthermore, the mpg discrepency has nothing to do with "enthusiastic mis-statement". The 18/24 figures are from the EPA, not Mazda. ...snip...
[/B]
Even in my current car, the best I've done is 30 MPG (rated at 31) and that is only in winter. The A/C hits me at least 20% penalty (and here in Texas that penalty this year lasted from March to almost now).
Meanwhile, I'm not planning on buying the 8 for the MPG >
11-25-2003, 08:40 PM
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Originally posted by Q121825
The EPA ratings have almost nothing to do with reality. The last time I looked at the standards (I'm a total geek), they were not running the A/C and I think the "highway" MPG figure is at 45 mph.
Even in my current car, the best I've done is 30 MPG (rated at 31) and that is only in winter. The A/C hits me at least 20% penalty (and here in Texas that penalty this year lasted from March to almost now).
Meanwhile, I'm not planning on buying the 8 for the MPG >
The EPA ratings have almost nothing to do with reality. The last time I looked at the standards (I'm a total geek), they were not running the A/C and I think the "highway" MPG figure is at 45 mph.
Even in my current car, the best I've done is 30 MPG (rated at 31) and that is only in winter. The A/C hits me at least 20% penalty (and here in Texas that penalty this year lasted from March to almost now).
Meanwhile, I'm not planning on buying the 8 for the MPG >
Here's a brief snip from EPA's own info from their website. Seeing how terribly the text is mangled sort of makes me wonder about their accuracy too
- I mean, "nfflcage"??? But it does explain their methods and expectations. The full text can be found athttp://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/gasmel.pdf
The test used to determine the city estimate
simulates a 7.5 mile, stop-and-go trip with an
average speed of 20 mph. The trip takes 23
minutes and has 18 stops. About 18 percent of the
time is spent idling, as in waiting at traffic lights
or in rush hour traffic.
The test to determine the highway estimate
represents a mixture of 'non-city' driving. Segments corresponding to different kinds of rural roads
and interstate highways are included. The
test simulates a 10 mile trip and averages 48 mph. ]Me test is rue when the engine is warmed up and
with very little idling time and no stops until the end of the test.
To make the numbers on the labels more useful for consumers, EPA adjusts the laboratory test results
to account for the difference between the controlled laboratory conditions and actual driving on the
road. The city estimate is lowered by 10% and the highway estimate by 22% from the laboratory
test results. Experience has proven that these adjustments make the nfflcage estimates on the labels
correspond more closely to the actual
gas mileage gotten by an average driver.
Why does my actual mileage vary from that given on the label?
No test can simulate all possible combinations of conditions, climate, driver behavior, and car cue
habits. EPA adjusted the laboratory test results
based on an average of the factors which can change mileage (described in following question).
Your actual mileage depends on how, when, and
where you drive and how closely this matches the average conditions used by EPA in determining
mileage. EPA has found that the mpg obtained by most drivers will be within a few mpg of the
estimates on the labels. Each label also lists a range of mpg that can be expected given certain
variables.
Certification Division, Motor Vehicle Emission Laboratory
simulates a 7.5 mile, stop-and-go trip with an
average speed of 20 mph. The trip takes 23
minutes and has 18 stops. About 18 percent of the
time is spent idling, as in waiting at traffic lights
or in rush hour traffic.
The test to determine the highway estimate
represents a mixture of 'non-city' driving. Segments corresponding to different kinds of rural roads
and interstate highways are included. The
test simulates a 10 mile trip and averages 48 mph. ]Me test is rue when the engine is warmed up and
with very little idling time and no stops until the end of the test.
To make the numbers on the labels more useful for consumers, EPA adjusts the laboratory test results
to account for the difference between the controlled laboratory conditions and actual driving on the
road. The city estimate is lowered by 10% and the highway estimate by 22% from the laboratory
test results. Experience has proven that these adjustments make the nfflcage estimates on the labels
correspond more closely to the actual
gas mileage gotten by an average driver.
Why does my actual mileage vary from that given on the label?
No test can simulate all possible combinations of conditions, climate, driver behavior, and car cue
habits. EPA adjusted the laboratory test results
based on an average of the factors which can change mileage (described in following question).
Your actual mileage depends on how, when, and
where you drive and how closely this matches the average conditions used by EPA in determining
mileage. EPA has found that the mpg obtained by most drivers will be within a few mpg of the
estimates on the labels. Each label also lists a range of mpg that can be expected given certain
variables.
Certification Division, Motor Vehicle Emission Laboratory
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