Day 1: ACT HDMM clutch installed. And yes, there are problems
03-25-2010, 09:11 PM
#1
Day 1: ACT HDMM clutch installed. And yes, there are problems
So after a clutch blow out on my 04 MT RX8 two weeks ago, I finally had my ACT HDMM clutch kit installed by a mechanic around here. I kept my old flywheel which they inspected and said was in good condition. So they just did a special sanding on it. The mechanic group is pretty competent and have great reviews by everyone.
But, all is not well in RX8 land. Here are my observations. Last one is the problem.
- Pedal feel is actually LIGHTER than stock. Much lighter.
- Pedal has an inch or two of 'dummy play' on the top without much spring tension
- when fully depressed and set to go, it has virtually no play before it engages
- everything is much louder. In first gear primarily, if I was to accelerate to 5-6K RPM and then just come off the accelerator and not depress the clutch, there is a very loud rubbing/grinding noise. This happens in 2 as well, but is less noticeable. There is certainly a rough feedback at this time on the floor board.
- gear shifts are not a problem at all.
- reverse is also much louder with a loud whirrrring noise that was never there before
Interestingly, while at the mechanic the CEL came on. Its a P0037 (I researched this on the forum and I know what it is). I just cannot imagine that an O2 sensor could get dinged with a clutch repair job, right?
Second interesting thing is they did an oil change, but there is oil well above the dipstick full mark all the way up on to the rod part. I read somewhere that oil overfill can do this. But, they said CEL came on before oil change.
Upon telling the mechanic all this, he went out on a test drive with me. Although he doesn't know my car and the lack of sounds it made before, he tells me this is a normal noise. He says that it could be that I should have changed the flywheel, but then maybe thats not it. He then said that since my clutch failed at 53K, I ride the clutch, which is NOT true. He said that when I accelerate in 1 and then come off the pedal without using the clutch (meaning car is just decelerating with the engine revving down), that I am 'riding the clutch' ?. I have never heard these noises, in fact when decelerating using the engine it always sounded beautiful in the past. Now there is a loud grinding noise, and an on/off rubbing noise of some kind.
I don't know what to do. He says he will have to charge me labor to open the thing up again and if everything is normal, I should replace with stock clutch kit and see if the noise goes away.
I have no idea what to do. Any thoughts?
But, all is not well in RX8 land. Here are my observations. Last one is the problem.
- Pedal feel is actually LIGHTER than stock. Much lighter.
- Pedal has an inch or two of 'dummy play' on the top without much spring tension
- when fully depressed and set to go, it has virtually no play before it engages
- everything is much louder. In first gear primarily, if I was to accelerate to 5-6K RPM and then just come off the accelerator and not depress the clutch, there is a very loud rubbing/grinding noise. This happens in 2 as well, but is less noticeable. There is certainly a rough feedback at this time on the floor board.
- gear shifts are not a problem at all.
- reverse is also much louder with a loud whirrrring noise that was never there before
Interestingly, while at the mechanic the CEL came on. Its a P0037 (I researched this on the forum and I know what it is). I just cannot imagine that an O2 sensor could get dinged with a clutch repair job, right?
Second interesting thing is they did an oil change, but there is oil well above the dipstick full mark all the way up on to the rod part. I read somewhere that oil overfill can do this. But, they said CEL came on before oil change.
Upon telling the mechanic all this, he went out on a test drive with me. Although he doesn't know my car and the lack of sounds it made before, he tells me this is a normal noise. He says that it could be that I should have changed the flywheel, but then maybe thats not it. He then said that since my clutch failed at 53K, I ride the clutch, which is NOT true. He said that when I accelerate in 1 and then come off the pedal without using the clutch (meaning car is just decelerating with the engine revving down), that I am 'riding the clutch' ?. I have never heard these noises, in fact when decelerating using the engine it always sounded beautiful in the past. Now there is a loud grinding noise, and an on/off rubbing noise of some kind.
I don't know what to do. He says he will have to charge me labor to open the thing up again and if everything is normal, I should replace with stock clutch kit and see if the noise goes away.
I have no idea what to do. Any thoughts?
03-25-2010, 09:27 PM
#2
1) The pedal feel you're experiencing probably means you need to adjust the pedal play push rod on the clutch pedal.
This is common with aftermarket clutch kit installs.
2) The P0037 code can be caused from a clutch swap since you do need to remove the cat/midpipe during the processes.
Possible either a wire got snagged or they simply forgot to plug it back in.
3) The noise isn't normal and should be looked at... maybe the pilot bearing got damaged.
These are things that likely occurred during the install and the shop should take responsibility to inspect their job.
This is common with aftermarket clutch kit installs.
2) The P0037 code can be caused from a clutch swap since you do need to remove the cat/midpipe during the processes.
Possible either a wire got snagged or they simply forgot to plug it back in.
3) The noise isn't normal and should be looked at... maybe the pilot bearing got damaged.
These are things that likely occurred during the install and the shop should take responsibility to inspect their job.
03-25-2010, 09:32 PM
#3
Hey Jon, I think you're right. The shop should take responsibility. But, how do you force them to retake a look when they think its 'normal'.
This brings up an interesting debate. As much as Mazda charges, at least the work is 'warrantied'. I know that it isn't full proof and even Mazda dealerships can screw around.
Well, I will let them know the information you gave me re: cat/midpipe removal. I am debating whether I go ahead with a disassemble and potential costs.
This brings up an interesting debate. As much as Mazda charges, at least the work is 'warrantied'. I know that it isn't full proof and even Mazda dealerships can screw around.
Well, I will let them know the information you gave me re: cat/midpipe removal. I am debating whether I go ahead with a disassemble and potential costs.
03-25-2010, 10:30 PM
#4
The RX-8 is missed
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never dealt with this, but no way that sound is "normal."
tell them you have video proof of your car and how it sounded before in gear, and there is some sort of grinding noise. if they think you're an push-over...they'll stand there ground. if they realize you know what you're talking about and you're not going away, they should open her back up and figure out what that noise is.
by the way...shoulda sprung for a new flywheel while they were doing all that!!
tell them you have video proof of your car and how it sounded before in gear, and there is some sort of grinding noise. if they think you're an push-over...they'll stand there ground. if they realize you know what you're talking about and you're not going away, they should open her back up and figure out what that noise is.
by the way...shoulda sprung for a new flywheel while they were doing all that!!
03-29-2010, 01:19 AM
#6
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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New clutches are almost always lighter than the old one they replaced...
The rx8 stock clutch is by no means "light" and is far heavier than most other vehicles stock clutches, even "performance" vehicles such as a GTO or Corvette. Why Mazda chose to use such a heavy duty pressureplate on a vehicle making a ground thumping 175tq, I do not know. I ran a stock (rx7 turbo) clutch on my turbo II when it was making 465rwhp and 380+tq and it held up just fine, and that clutch was definitely lighter than the stock clutch in the rx8.
I experienced the same change in pedal feel when I recently installed my ACT HDMM (SS) kit. It is actually lighter and more pleasant to drive than the stock clutch by far, in spite of greater torque holding capacity ratings.
Any clutch/pressure plate will stiffen up with age and heat cycling, over time. Anytime I've ever installed a new clutch pressureplate, stock or modified, it always feels light when first installed, a year later it has stiffened up a lot.
You need to adjust your pedal height to get proper engagement and play. This is super easy to do...follow the clutch pedal up and you will find a rod coming out of the top of it. The rod has a 10mm and 12mm nut. Loosen the 12mm nut. Turn the 10mm nut (rod) in such a way to put the rod further into the master cylinder, further away from the pedal. Depending on how you conceptualize this in the car or how you lay in the car to make the adjustment, it can be called one of 2 directions, which is why I have not specified direction.
Turn it in this way until there is 1/4" or less of play between the top of the pedal and when it encounters significant resistance (when the throwout bearing hits the pressureplate). Then tighten down the 12mm nut and you are done.
IF you are good with feeling things but not having to see them, you can do this without even laying in your floorboard, in less than 30 seconds.
The extra trans noise could be due to different fluid in the trans, or due to the stress put on the trans because the clutch is not being 100% disengaged, due to the incorrect pedal adjustment.
Yes both oxygen sensors can sustain wiring or physical damage during trans removal.
The rx8 stock clutch is by no means "light" and is far heavier than most other vehicles stock clutches, even "performance" vehicles such as a GTO or Corvette. Why Mazda chose to use such a heavy duty pressureplate on a vehicle making a ground thumping 175tq, I do not know. I ran a stock (rx7 turbo) clutch on my turbo II when it was making 465rwhp and 380+tq and it held up just fine, and that clutch was definitely lighter than the stock clutch in the rx8.
I experienced the same change in pedal feel when I recently installed my ACT HDMM (SS) kit. It is actually lighter and more pleasant to drive than the stock clutch by far, in spite of greater torque holding capacity ratings.
Any clutch/pressure plate will stiffen up with age and heat cycling, over time. Anytime I've ever installed a new clutch pressureplate, stock or modified, it always feels light when first installed, a year later it has stiffened up a lot.
You need to adjust your pedal height to get proper engagement and play. This is super easy to do...follow the clutch pedal up and you will find a rod coming out of the top of it. The rod has a 10mm and 12mm nut. Loosen the 12mm nut. Turn the 10mm nut (rod) in such a way to put the rod further into the master cylinder, further away from the pedal. Depending on how you conceptualize this in the car or how you lay in the car to make the adjustment, it can be called one of 2 directions, which is why I have not specified direction.
Turn it in this way until there is 1/4" or less of play between the top of the pedal and when it encounters significant resistance (when the throwout bearing hits the pressureplate). Then tighten down the 12mm nut and you are done.
IF you are good with feeling things but not having to see them, you can do this without even laying in your floorboard, in less than 30 seconds.
The extra trans noise could be due to different fluid in the trans, or due to the stress put on the trans because the clutch is not being 100% disengaged, due to the incorrect pedal adjustment.
Yes both oxygen sensors can sustain wiring or physical damage during trans removal.
03-29-2010, 10:24 AM
#8
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03-29-2010, 12:47 PM
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kevin@rotaryresurrection
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Everybody has their own way of doing things, most of the knowledgeable people like you and I do not go by the manual anyway. My method has worked well for me for the last 12-13 years I've been adjusting clutch pedals. I am sure yours works for you as well. I am not one of these people who believes there is only one way to do things, especially on something as complex and variable as a car. There is not just one "right" way to accomplish the same task.
There are plenty of "knowledgeable" people who will say "there is only one right way, and this is it" and I will usually disagree with those people all day long.
I am not sure why there would ever be a need to adjust actual clutch pedal height...only freeplay (which also includes pedal engagement/disengagement range). When I initially said "pedal height" I wasnt actually referring to the height of the pedal at rest, but the height at which it engages and disengages...which was one of his greatest complaints.
But yes, no doubt the supplier he bought from is providing a level of service inline with your own.
There are plenty of "knowledgeable" people who will say "there is only one right way, and this is it" and I will usually disagree with those people all day long.
I am not sure why there would ever be a need to adjust actual clutch pedal height...only freeplay (which also includes pedal engagement/disengagement range). When I initially said "pedal height" I wasnt actually referring to the height of the pedal at rest, but the height at which it engages and disengages...which was one of his greatest complaints.
But yes, no doubt the supplier he bought from is providing a level of service inline with your own.
03-29-2010, 12:57 PM
#10
Okay, I've adjusted both the pedal height and the clutch engagement height. I fiddled around with it until I got to a point where it feels the way I like it.
Regardless, in deceleration - lets say gear 1 - there is an obvious sound that wasn't present before I had my clutch replaced. Specifically, it sounds like a grinding/rubbing sound. It is not harmonious with the engine braking, i.e it is not a whir that dissipates with deceleration. Again, this sound disappears when clutch pedal is depressed to floor and is only present when decelerating with clutch pedal all the way up.
Two things:
1. I called the vendor that sold me the clutch kit and he recommended I bleed out the system - given I mentioned the pedal feel was loose. But, I did what you all recommended and adjusted the foot pedal and there was a STARK difference in the pedal feel. He also suggested I keep driving it and the sound may go away with time. (?). He thinks so because I did not replace my flywheel only had it resurfaced. He thinks there may be an issue with 'interfacing' that will go away with time. He suggested I take it up to say 8K rpm at highway speed and then let it decelerate without engaging/disengaging the clutch pedal. Could it be the flywheel is 'off balance' - a word he used.
2. Shifting into gears is beautiful. No grinding, screeching etc. I mention this because the vendor said that it may be my transmission making the noises. On that note, I don't think the mechanic changed the transmission fluid. In fact, I asked him if he should and he said not due till 70K mies so didn't. These guys are honest minimalists I think.
Noise still there, but clutch pedal feels beautiful. Noise must go
Any help appreciated. I wanted it to bring it to Dyno Day, but I ended up being on call. I'm a resident and schedule is erratic. Besides, dyno day wasn't for 'what's wrong with my car?' haha.
Regardless, in deceleration - lets say gear 1 - there is an obvious sound that wasn't present before I had my clutch replaced. Specifically, it sounds like a grinding/rubbing sound. It is not harmonious with the engine braking, i.e it is not a whir that dissipates with deceleration. Again, this sound disappears when clutch pedal is depressed to floor and is only present when decelerating with clutch pedal all the way up.
Two things:
1. I called the vendor that sold me the clutch kit and he recommended I bleed out the system - given I mentioned the pedal feel was loose. But, I did what you all recommended and adjusted the foot pedal and there was a STARK difference in the pedal feel. He also suggested I keep driving it and the sound may go away with time. (?). He thinks so because I did not replace my flywheel only had it resurfaced. He thinks there may be an issue with 'interfacing' that will go away with time. He suggested I take it up to say 8K rpm at highway speed and then let it decelerate without engaging/disengaging the clutch pedal. Could it be the flywheel is 'off balance' - a word he used.
2. Shifting into gears is beautiful. No grinding, screeching etc. I mention this because the vendor said that it may be my transmission making the noises. On that note, I don't think the mechanic changed the transmission fluid. In fact, I asked him if he should and he said not due till 70K mies so didn't. These guys are honest minimalists I think.
Noise still there, but clutch pedal feels beautiful. Noise must go
Any help appreciated. I wanted it to bring it to Dyno Day, but I ended up being on call. I'm a resident and schedule is erratic. Besides, dyno day wasn't for 'what's wrong with my car?' haha.
03-29-2010, 01:27 PM
#12
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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I think your "vendor" is just throwing ideas out there, none of what you posted made much sense.
IF there is an issue that occurs on clutch engagement/disengagement, that is normally clutch related.
If there is an issue that occurs when the clutch pedal is not being pushed, then that is usually in the trans itself. There are a few exceptions of course.
I would say any noises you hear with the clutch engaged, as you drive without pushing the clutch pedal, are solely transmission related.
My theory is that it is likely due to a CHANGE IN GEAR OIL INSIDE THE TRANS done when the mechanic R&R'd the trans. Over the years I've found that the mazda trannies are very sensitive to different types of fluids. Perhaps he used a different grade of gear oil and that is producing the additional noise.
IF there is an issue that occurs on clutch engagement/disengagement, that is normally clutch related.
If there is an issue that occurs when the clutch pedal is not being pushed, then that is usually in the trans itself. There are a few exceptions of course.
I would say any noises you hear with the clutch engaged, as you drive without pushing the clutch pedal, are solely transmission related.
My theory is that it is likely due to a CHANGE IN GEAR OIL INSIDE THE TRANS done when the mechanic R&R'd the trans. Over the years I've found that the mazda trannies are very sensitive to different types of fluids. Perhaps he used a different grade of gear oil and that is producing the additional noise.
03-29-2010, 11:36 PM
#14
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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I'm not suggesting we regurgitate the same info every time it's asked for and promote reader laziness, but every now and then it doesnt hurt to repost useful info. Just saying.
03-29-2010, 11:42 PM
#15
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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03-30-2010, 09:29 AM
#16
There are no doubts about that. I am flabbergasted at the support you have all offered. Charles, I will call you this afternoon if things work out.
This feels like a new beginning for my 8
This feels like a new beginning for my 8
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