Xyntax

Good input johncalifornia. Thanks. After I finish this tank of gas I filled, I will try your suggestion. I'm trying out the granny style driving on my first 2 tanks. And then another 2 tanks at john-style driving. I will stop experimenting when this 8 reaches 1K and start having fun. Any other suggestions as to how to drive my other future tanks of gas before 1K miles?

btw, I dont get it when you said "big throttle openings at low RPMs" and "small throttle openings at high RPMs". I thought high RPMs mean bigger throttle openings (thus the 3rd intake port that opens at 6250 RPM) and low RPMs mean smaller throttle openings. I'm not sure if it is different on a rotary, care to explain?

Racer X-8

johncalifornia

I'm no expert on that matter (this is my first rotary), but you're not the only one here, and that's the first time I've heard that.

"During break-in you should free-rev up to the maximum RPM permitted by the manufacturer..." is the part I'm refering to. Since Mazda does not specify a "break-in" period, I'm taking it that you're saying to go to 9k rpm right out of the dealership, and keep her up there?!?

My my my... I don't think so...

Lucky for me, the light-on-the-throttle part was adhered to by me. I kept it under 4500 rpms for the first 600 miles though, like most everybody else here.

hotpot

I'll take up your offer since you seem keen to experiment.

1. Drive till your empty warning light comes on. Reset your trip counter and drive until you run out of gas and the car comes to a stand-still. Let me know how many miles you get from the point the empty light comes on.

2. Drive in reverse and see if you get better mileage, first granny style, then all-hell-breaks-loose style. Compare results.

Thanks mate.

93rdcurrent

John,

"I'm surprised you got away with it on your M3 -- they have a lot of engine problems I hear -- but it's even more risky with a low-torque rotary."

I never said I drove my M3 at low rpms actually I said I drove it like I stole it. Last time I watched COPS and saw car thieves evading police the last thing there were doing was watching their rpms. And as for the break in period I was told by several Rotary Enthusiasts (and yes they own rotarys) to drive it at lower rpms while breaking it in. Not "lugging" the engine but keeping it below 6k rpms for the first 600 miles.

"People think that low revs mean being easy on the engine but this isn't true. It's low LOADS that are important. The engine works much harder at low revs and big throttle openings than it does free-revving at smaller throttle openings."

I certainly understand this principle quite well and should since I used to race mountain bikes when I was in college. You should keep the load off the engine by selecting a gear ratio that gives you more torque when trying to jump on the gas or climb a hill, correct. I believe that the experimenter indicated that he was not "lugging" the engine.

"During break-in you should free-rev up to the maximum RPM permitted by the manufacturer, staying in lower gears and using minimum throttle. This means driving around town in second gear. The seals will seat and the engine will adapt to its rev range."

The dealer and the manual both disagree with you. As well as most of the people on this sight who are concerned about warranty issues. I have owned several cars as well as some built for racing (I won't bore anyone here with details since I have already posted before) and when I would do rebuilds or serious engine upgrades I would always allow my car some time to "seat itself" before it saw WOT and redlines.

"About turbos -- this car doesn't need one, just a chip to restore its missing 20 hp. A turbo would seriously compromise its driveability. If you drive an 8 like it needs to be driven (keep the revs UP), it will not be short of power at 250 hp. Hell, it's quite acceptable stock."

There are many of us who disagree with you about the turbos. I am used to beefier cars and would love a 350 hp RX-8. I would also like a bit more torque. Not everyone feels the need for it and that's great I'm glad that you have an opinion but I personally love the feel if 15psi+ boost and the whine as the turbo spools up. My cars have always been sleepers. You know that guy who just looks like he has a nice rims and maybe it's a little bit lower. But when he gets on the gas it's a whole different story. My RX-8 lacks that for now.

"If you wanna drag race, get a Mitsu Lancer Evo. Drag racing an 8 is a bad idea of a bunch of reasons, not the least of which is that you will lose to inferior cars nearly every time."

I don't want to drag race but I do want to auto-x. And I want to do it in style. If I did want to drag race I would blow-up a civic. They are cheaper and I can justify cutting them up better.

hotpot

mpg update: As expected I've achieved a new low score of 15.57 mpg on my last tank. This included 80 miles of very hard driving and 150 miles of moderate to quick driving. I always shift to 6th gear as soon as possible except when driving hard where 6th gear is used on long straights.

Overall average mpg after 2000 miles is 16.82.
The fuel consumption does not seem to get better with time. Did an oil change a week ago too.

Q121825

I just passed 1100 miles on my 8. During the break in period, I varied the RPMs as much as (1) the max RPM for that mileage block allowed (using the Mazdaspeed regime); and (2) local traffic conditions allowed. I did not use the cruise control other than a very short test to verify it was functioning.

My first four tanks worked out to 17.2 MPG, 18.1 MPG, 18.6 MPG and 18.1 MPG. That last tank included some blatantly illegal speeds once the engine was good and warm. I changed the oil at 725 miles.

My last tank was 19.1 MPG. My daily commute (100+ miles round trip) is mostly highway with some stop-n-go in the evenings. When I'm in the stop-n-go, I usually find myself staying in 3rd or 4th to provide a pleasant driving experience while remaining high enough in the band to accelerate when necessary.

Once I turn down my 2-lane country road (now with twisties!), I usually rev in 2nd to near redline if possible for both the nearly orgasmic sound of the wankel and the need for speed.

I try to balance between the fun quotient and the gas bill. I hope to see regular tanks nearer 20, but I didn't buy the 8 for the MPG. The budgeted target is 18 MPG.

johncalifornia

Q12, you're doing it right! Breaking the car in properly is the best way to get optimal fuel economy later. In the 8's case, optimal is probably in the low 20s.

Xyntax, keep it one gear lower than you think you should and you will be driving at small throttle openings. Try it!

93rd - I was wrong about suggesting you lugged your M3, a misreading on my part, and I apologize! OTOH, I was not advocating red-lining an 8 before break-in, merely "spinning" it through its permitted rev range.

About auto-x'ing an 8 -- I wouldn't bother. The wheelbase is too long for starters. (I've been auto-x'ing since the early 70s but hey, I might be wrong! Spend $10K preparing your car for serious auto-x and let us know how you're doing.)

IMHO auto-x'ing an 8 is nearly as bad an idea as drag racing one. Sort of like asking Seabiscuit to race a bunch of chihuahuas around a kitchen table.

93rdcurrent

johncalifornia,

Apology accepted, and I misunderstood whether you were speaking of redlining so let me apologize about that accusation.

You should do a search for the "Top Gear" video. It is really cool but one thing that made it stand out to me was the track time of the RX-8. Stock it had the same time on the track course as the M3 and the 350Z. So without any suspension or hp upgrades it does fairly well against much more expensive cars.

One of the things that I noticed when I test drove the RX-8 was that it seemed to corner better than my M3 did. After seeing the Top Gear video I understand that it must corner better otherwise the higher hp cars would be all over it.

I realize that many people buy their cars for different reasons and I bought mine because I love to drive. Not just distances but I like to drive fast and hard at times. I have raced in the past on the street and, while I am not saying anyone should do that, it did teach me quite a bit about how much fun cars can be if given the proper respect and upgrade them in the right ways. I don't race on the street any more (not very often anyway) so I am looking to do more with the car clubs around here and to get more track time to fill that void left somewhere around my right foot. Coming from high hp cars and can see where this one could be improved just slightly to compete and win against the likes of the S2000, 350Z, M3, and other ricers.

johncalifornia

93rd: The 8's speed through Road & Track's 700-foot slalom is only 65.4 mph. Relative to other cars in its class, it's about the slowest. (The M3's is 68.3. The frickin Mitsu Lancer's is 68.9!)

The reason is relatively poor transient response, caused by the car's soft suspension. If you want to auto-x this car you'll have to stiffen the damping considerably, as well as replace the springs and bushings. This would cost you the beautiful ride now delivered by the RX-8.

Just as it is, the 8 handles superbly on real roads. Road handling, as you know, is not the same as race handling. In fact, it's not an exaggeration to say that one is the opposite of the other.

(Car & Driver did a racetrack comparo of the 8 vs the Z and the Mustang Cobra. The 8's track times were way slower due to the power difference. Still, the 8 won the comparo decisively.)

I would not want the 8's suspension to be an iota stiffer than it is. As with the car's original 250 hp, the stock specification meets the car's mission more than adequately.

To my mind the 8's mission is to be the opposite of the RX7 -- in other words, a practical and comfortable daily driver with the exotic appeal of a rotary -- while continuing to deliver a world-class driving experience. (That is, like a Miata it is just sheer pleasure to drive at any speed.)

The new 7 will have excellent transient response, count on it. But making a 7 out of the 8 via suspension tuning and aftermarket turbo would be like trying to make an orange out of an apple. You'd end up with Roseanne Barr.

93rdcurrent

johncalifornia,

I will make it simple for you here is the link http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andy.wray/topgear.wmv . I know that this show is very respected in the UK and most of Europe. They may have used a different technique and pushed the car harder than the american drivers but they had the same driver in all three cars. Also, it is interesting to note that the driver was obviously driving the car with the DSC turned off. I wonder if the C&D or R&D boys were doing that?

johncalifornia

Fun video, but did you really consider that an informed review? The guy was wrong on a number of factual points, and his arrogant attitude and put-down of the car's styling were typical of the overblown, snobby style that's popular with the Brits right now to the point of nausea. (Think of Simon on American Idol.) Plus, I hate the way he reversed his "best car" verdict in front of the TV audience.

Though it's completely corn-ball (you have to be obese to work there), US-produced Motorweek is a great deal more knowledgeable and reliable as a TV auto review show, IMHO.

Yes, the Brit was driving tail-out without DSC on a (partly) watered track -- actually an airport converted to a track: pancake flat and lots of 90-degree corners.

(Car & Driver also said there is no more forgiving car to drive tail-out than the 8. Why anybody would want DSC on this car is beyond me. Even in bad weather I'd leave it off, so why pay for it in the first place? DSC for little old ladies in Cadillacs! Like ABS, DSC is the first thing people turn off when they get to the race track.)

The "track" the Brits tested on was tight and short (lap times around 1:32 in street cars). That would explain how the 8 could turn times equivalent to more powerful cars like the Z and M3. They all corner about about the same speed, ultimately limited by their street tires. Put them on a "faster" track like Mid Ohio or Laguna Seca and the more powerful cars would be gone. It's just physics.

Anyway, I really don't care how the 8 does on a race track. It's the superb driving experience on the road that has sold me on the car.

Let me put it another way: If the car was faster at the race track I probably wouldn't want it because it would not be as fantastic on the street.

Oh yes, and that English a**hole can put his opinion about the car's styling in the same place he keeps his British Motor Corporation stocks. The RX-8 is one of the most beautiful cars on the road -- if you have the imagination to appreciate it.

93rdcurrent

I think that it is just the British style. I know a few Brits who think the same thing about Americans. Hell I'm damn sure there are a few countries out there that think we are more than a little pushy or snobbish. Anyhow, you are right that is a short track and given a long straight away the other cars would begin to pull away.

I am glad that you are happy with your RX-8 just the way it is, and I will say it again, I will be happier when mine performs better than my M3. I could have bought the '04 M3 but decided to save some money and get the RX-8 only to deal with hp issues later. Suspension may or may not happen haven't decided. Tires are a must.

johncalifornia

I'd say we now see each other's point of view pretty well.

You probably already know this, but if you make your 8 faster than an M3 it won't be an 8 anymore.

A few years ago I put $20K into a Miata and ended up with something that could turn the quarter in 13 secs and felt right at home drifting sideways on the track. It was still driveable and reliable -- only problem was, it wasn't a Miata anymore.

After a few months of getting my kidneys rattled, I sold it and bought another Miata which after two years remains bog stock -- not even a K&N air filter. I much prefer it to my "faster" one.

To each his own.

zoom44

UPDATE!

after more than a week of grueling granny driving style i have a new MPG figure. remeber for the previous tank of always on the revs, never using 6th and running to the redline in 1st 2nd an 3rd(when able) i got 12.2 mpg. for this tank of exactly opposite driving the same routes i got-------------15.12 mpg. i have in the past made 17.5 mpg without trying to drive in any particular fashion but using the same routes.

so my conclusion is this: quit checking your mileage!! drive the friggin thing. and quit worrying about it. you will be much better off. check it once in awhile if you need to but just don't fuss about it. rev it to 9k a couple of times per week and the car will be happier for it.

93rdcurrent

Johncalifornia,

I upgraded a '91 MR2 to 575 hp. I did some very extensive suspension and brake work, Turbonetics stage II upgrade, Supra fuel rail, HKS Superdragger Exhaust, etc., etc. I loved it but I couldn't let anyone drive it because it was just on the edge of controllability if you weren't used to driving such high hp cars. That is just what I like only due to winters up hear I won't get too crazy. Plus I think that my tastes have changed in the last 5 years and I would rather keep it under 400 hp. I am no longer trying to be the fastest SOB on the road.

Kleinies

I am comming from a gasoline car. So I drive my RX-8 ... like a lorry !
It is very silent and smooth, and when power is needed, I drop from the 5th to the 3rd (which is more than dropping from 6th to third on a 6MT)
Silent ... but still 13.2 MPG in city center !
However, I get comfortable range on the road with 24.5 MPG when driving that way... no need to brake or accelerate ... the RX-8 almost swallows any curve at any speed, and the seat keeps me at the right place (I exagerate a little).

Xyntax

Update: Ok, so I load up with 87 Chevron now. I've tried different companies (all 87 octane) such as Chevron, 76, World Oil, etc. So far Chevron gives me the best mileage and smoothness.

I have driven spirited and granny using 87, but the difference is only 1 mpg :D

Redlining on a freeway entrance and driving 4th gear most of the time gave me 14mpg. In the opposite of that, driving into the freeway entrance with 5th gear engaged already and then cruising with 6th, I am getting 15mpg.

Sucks huh? So now I just drive my 8 the way I feel (cruise on the freeway at 5K rpm+)

btw, City driving is at 4th gear @ 45mph. That's my usual cruise.

Omicron

FYI folks, I've been trying an experiment of my own, and have gotten 18 MPG in the city.

Check this thread for more info.

Overport

Please don't...you'll get flamed to death. the rotary is not an engine that is meant to be driven like that. it is meant to be revving high. maybe not redline every shift (DUH) but like at least 4,500 to 6,000 rpm's.

brg811

why not just shift were the owners book says?

deadphoenix52

welcome to rx8club. the date for each post in in the upper left-hand corner. Happy modding

CarAndDriver

I try to get into 6th asap on the 8. I guess every little tenth of a gallon helps.

refugeefrompistons

Holy Thread Revival!

CarAndDriver

Didn't realize this.ha

Smileynh

Premium gas is $3.60 here. The $2 difference from 87 octane per tank isn't ever going to matter to me.

I just can't think of another car that gets 30+ mpg that I'd like to drive compared to the 8. 20 gallons, $70, 80, 150($7.50/gal) a month. I may try to figure out how to drive less but I'm keeping the 8.

Maybe get yourself a Jetta GLI. Nice, comfy. Not an 8, no big grin :P

NH