Uzukiel

So, I went to have lunch with my wife on my day off (i know...nice guy, right?) and we got lunch, ate in the car..and sat and spent some time together for about 45 minutes or so, with the car off. I went to start it, to take her back to work, and the car nearly didn't start. Cranked, and cranked, and cranked, then finally sputtered a few times as the starter tried to catch...and THEN it turned over and fired up. It sorta hesitates to start, once in a great while, but it's never been anywhere close to that bad, and most times it starts right up.

The engine only has about 31k on it, as an 04 auto. Is it really time for new ignition coils already? My gas mileage has been in the pits the past couple tanks, too. I've only got about 59 miles on this tank and i'm almost at 3/4 of a tank already.

Should I be concerned?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Ignition only lasts about 30,000 miles, definately time. Dont pay a dealer, they are $260 for everything from vendors here, and an hour of easy.work, tops.

Uzukiel

*sighs* Great timing...I still need snow tires, and Christmas money, too...and a windshield for my other beater. Time to really start banging down doors for a second job.

DarkBrew

It helps the budget when your gas lasts 240+ miles

I need to switch to my winter beater this weekend.... 350 miles per tank, smaller tank, lower grade

DstrbdTech

Wait till you get the moment that you turn the key the car doesnt do anything for 7 seconds then just magically fires up...

It probably is time for Coils, Plugs, and Wires. The general concensus is about 25K to 30K miles they start going.

Mine has exhibited symptoms so I'm currently trying to take it easy and will do a cat test to make sure the cat wasn't to badly stressed from the bad plugs. Mid November Early December is when I'll be able to get this completed...hoping to get the BHR Ignition set-up!

Uzukiel

Well...it turned over for forever...at least 5-7 seconds..at least..before it ever tried to actually fire. Is that $260 RIWWP quoted including plugs and wires...or just the coils?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Everything, maybe a tiny bit added for shipping.

$80 for plugs from BHR, Mazmart, or Rosenthal
$140 for coils from Mazmart
$60 for plug wires from BHR or Mazmart


If you still have a cat on the car, you are already accelerating cat failure, which is typical with failing ignition. Issues on this car snowball fast.


Edit: I just realized it's $280, not $260. My math is bad, sorry

maskedferret

iTrader: (1)

Old model starter? Still under warranty? Consider getting new one?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

2004, so the only warranty left could possibly be the engine, just due to time.

Starter certainly could be going south as well, but the ignition still needs to be replaced from mileage, so swapping the starter instead won't save him that, plus the starter is more than the full ignition, plus the starter has nothing to do with the driving issues he is seeing.



If the ignition doesn't fix it, then on to the starter, but don't start with the starter, as backwards as that sounds

Uzukiel

I know, obviously, the sooner the better...but realistically, how long do i have before the car floods/fails? Money's pretty stinkin' tight this month (November).

DstrbdTech

Shoot if thats the case might as well just get a high-flo cat with the BHR upgrade.

tubingchamp

iTrader: (3)

Taking your time on this could lead to damaging your CAT...

$1300 instead of $260.

You pick.

Uzukiel

"Could lead"..."Over time will damage"...all scary things. But in the real world, sometimes...you just don't have the option. It's a simple choice when you say "280 vs 1300...take your pick"...but if you don't have 280 right this second, either...the option is neither A or B...but C..and nothing I can do about it.

So, realistically...what's the time frame? If the ignition system is starting to fail, now...how long before it does real damage to the Cat, or leaves me stranded?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I can understand that. Realistically though, you are already at the critical point if your mileage is dropping and your having a harder time starting.

However, there is a cheaper option, but needs some work if you have time, replacing individual pieces that have issues. Typically, it isn't everything that fails around 30,000, it's one of the 8 components, maybe two or three, and it starts driving the others to failure from the added stress. (This is always why some people get luck and "all good ones", and they last 45k+) If you can identify which individual ones need replacing, you can keep the cost lower.

Pull each plug, one by one and inspect them for damage, total burn out, etc... pull one wire at a time and test them for resistance, and pull each coil and inspect/test them. There are no hard and true failure points to test for, but you should be able to figure out which pieces are the ones causing the issues, and replace just those.


Keep in mind however, that it doesn't reset the clock on any of the others, and likely the new ones you put in will have an accelerated rate of decay until you replace everything, so you still might need to replace everything else within a few months anyway, and possibly even what you just got. Because of this, we really don't recommend it, but it is better than ignoring it, which will certainly kill your cat, and while you are still under the federal cat warranty, clogging the cat has done everything from burning out the O2 sensors (a few hundred a piece), making it nearly or actually impossible to maintain speed, damaging the engine, and starting fires.

Well, assuming money wasn't an issue for him, BHR midpipe and BHR ignition is certainly the way to go for both. High flow cats that can stand up to the heat of the rotary are fairly expensive, and our cars only require cats because of technicalities in the law that state "must have a catalytic converter". You can actually make a Renesis CLEANER without a cat than you can with one, just tuning it to that point is generally a death sentence for a cat, so they have to find "What works".

tubingchamp

iTrader: (3)

Too many factors.

It is already doing real damage to the Cat.

Depends how long you want it to last.

Either way, its going to be more expensive in the long run.

Uzukiel

And...why are spark plugs $80? Or the ignition coils so much more, too. I realize most times you get what you pay for...but $80, for 4 spark plugs? Or...is it 2, on my 4v Auto?

DstrbdTech

Okay, I'm curious now. If we pull the cat and do a mid-pipe will an O2 Simulator be needed?

DstrbdTech

You have 4 and I imagine the expense is from them being different loads 2 Leading plugs and 2 trailing plugs.

tubingchamp

iTrader: (3)

Atleast you won't have to pay $60 each from Mazda.............

Uzukiel

What makes HGK plugs worth $20? That's a far, far cry from the $1-2 I've spent my whole life...which Advance Auto says they have for my car :P They also claim ignition coils are $25ish...and the most expensive wires they carry are $55. 55+50+8 is a far cry from $280. So...somebody inform the new guy why he needs special parts...please?

DstrbdTech

Reliability. I would imagine. I wouldn't feel comfortable throwing some $2dollar plug into a Rotary, maybe a Piston engine, but never a rotary.

I follow three rules for purchasing and its pretty universal, but only a generalization.

Fast+Cheap= Not Reliable
Reliable+Fast= Not Cheap
Cheap+Reliable= Not Fast

CyberPitz

As with everything, you get what you pay for.

Real life is real life, though. If you don't have the cash, what are you going to do? Whatever you decide, I hope it works out.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, in and out of meetings

$20 per spark plug, $80 for all 4, 2 per rotor housing, 1 leading and 1 trailing. They really are the best plugs you can get for the 8, and they are also the only ones that will really work. Some of the older RX-7 plugs can work, but not as well, and they really aren't any cheaper.

No? Yes? Several options there. I have a midpipe on my 8. When I first put one on, I didn't get a CEL at all. After about 3 weeks, a CEL showed up just in time for the dealer (had it on as a loaner why my new cat was being ordered). I bought the BHR midpipe, installed it mid september, no CEL, but by then I also had the AccessPORT, which masks the CEL, IF you have one to begin with. Not everyone gets a CEL with a midpipe. If you get a very fine, top notch tune from someone that knows what they are doing, you don't even need something to mask it, because it simply runs clean enough to pass a smog test without a cat. You just are technically still illegal, since the law calls for a cat to meet emissions, and doesn't have room to meet emissions catless. If you don't have that tune, you DO have a midpipe without a cat, and you ARE throwing a CEL, then yes, an O2 simulator could work as a method to hide it. It's more trouble than going the better route though.

Reliability is mostly correct. The rotary engine runs VERY hot. Most plugs can not handle the heat for very long, or the rate of firing on the plugs. Which is also the problem with the coils. Each coil on a piston engine at peak RPM of ~6,000 RPM are still only firing about 50 times per second, and the general rule for piston engines is to NOT run them against redline. So coils are usually closer to an average of about 15-20 times per second. Each coil on our 8 at 9,000 RPM, which is not only highly encouraged, but regularly exercised, fires 150 times per second (rotors turn at 1/3rd of the RPM, but with 3 faces, you still have 9,000 firings per minute). The OEM ones simply wear out. If you want to try auto-part store coils, feel free, you probably are better off using your shot OEM coils though. You can buy other coils that certainly work well, and can hold up under it, but you sure as hell aren't paying as cheap as $35 a piece. BHR's ignition upgrade uses yukon coils, with the associated adapter connectors, brackets, etc... is $485 for the kit.

The wires are mostly the same, though with only a $5 difference you might be fine there. Alot of power very frequently does wear out the wiring inside. Add the rest of the elements, and they fail just as easily.

You buy those cheap parts, and if you make it a few weeks I will be surprised. Very surprised. And you will still be causing the failures and extra damage you are trying to avoid now.

It simply is not worth it.



However, keep in mind, dealers charge about $50 to $80 PER COIL, $30 to $50 PER PLUG, etc... These prices really are very cheap, and they are obtained legitimately by reputable vendors who have access to buy directly from Mazda's supply line, and don't feel the need to mark everything up crazy amounts.

Uzukiel

I appreciate the input, honestly. I'm not trying to be unreasonable, or pick a fight...just trying to be informed. I come (like most of the people here, I'm sure) from a strictly-piston background. This is all new territory for me.

DstrbdTech

Okay, places here never do a body check on components so I could get away with having a mid-pipe if I can trick the computer into believing the cat is there (they just plug and read). I've installed an O2 Simulator before (granted this was on a Sentra), but its certainly nothing new to me Might get a mid pipe and then hold onto a simulator until a CEL pops up.