I agree. Even though my personal preference is obvious, I am really happy to see some of the variety and inovation coming out lately. The rotary is a new thing for me that I am enjoying, but I know that down the line there will be other things that catch my eye, and the stuff out now is pretty damn compelling too!

I mean, With cars out now such as SRT-4, EVO and WRX we are seeing some amazing cars that would never have hit market a few years ago. Just think of some of the things to come!

 

Not.
It's a darned shame that car makers of the US can't compete, time after time again. Every time they come up with a winner, they gotta price it outta reach. Viper. Vette. Stang comes close, but misses. A darned shame. How can they compete with the UAW providing wages that strangle any viable attempt at being fiscally competent & other crap that goes on in the upper ranks, exhorbident concessions made unwisely that have a snowball's chance in hell of being rescinded to regain some sense of sanity. But that's just my opinion.

 

Nice presentation of evidence, but these RX-8 people are 95% anti-350z for some reason. Ain't nothing going to change any of their minds and or give into to any evidence even if you put the designer of the Z on the lie detectior and ask him if the Audi TT influenced his design and he said NO they would still not change their mind. And you could have pictures of every angle comparing the old Z's with the new and have mathamatical evidence from the designers and it woudl still not matter. Even the center gauge cluster in the 350z (Volt meter, Oil pressure etc) are styling que's taken directly from the origional Z.

Also wether it looks like an old Z or not, its still a Z!!! No matter what you think, my car is called a 350z, has Z's all over it and on my window sticker.. Its a Z and we don't need any RX8's fan approval to make it official

 

I'm sorry. In all due respect, I don't see it. The nose is different, the headlights different, hood line is different, the rear body panels lines are different. The Z is much higher and bulkier. Maybe the sloping roof is a little similiar. The closest things to those two cars is that they are both silver.

I don't think it is quick generalization. How can anyone honestly say that those two cars are related except by name and manufacturer?

Some Z fans are applauding that Nissan brought back the Z, but there are some Z fans that probably doesn't care for the look and would like to have seen a more "classic" look. The same goes for us here. There are some rotary fans that are applauding Mazda for bringing back the rotary, but there are some rotary fans, that say the RX-8 is not an RX-7. And rightfully so, they are expecting a RX-7. But there lies the difference. The RX-8 is nota RX-7. It was never meant to be a replacement. The 350Z is a replacement for the Z, but to most people it does not look like a Z of old. They should have labeled it something else, IMO.


I am excited. I never said I was. I think it great that we all have great Japanese sport coupes and sedans that are competitive with the Audi's, Bimmers & other European makes. Choice is a good thing.

The 350Z does look sportier in pictures and "in-person", and I'm glad you like that over the G35 coupe. I prefer the coupe with it's classy, yet sporty looks over the Z. Like I said before, it's great to have choices for one's different wants and tastes in an automobile.

As for me, before the RX-8, I was going to get the G35 coupe. Since the RX-8 had the coupe style (vs 4-dr sedan) and even a sportier look, the RX-8 was the better car for me.

 

Except you're forgetting the fact that the 350z designer OWNS a TT and always talks about how much he LOVES it.

 

I know. I'm not the one that can't grasp that concept. One shouldn't be ashamed of where their roots originated.

Heck, if I was to design a car, it would have an Italian design flair to it, yet be more reliable; be high reving, reliable engine; be a great handler; get me to 60 in the low 6 secs; have reasonable gas mileage; have a sporty interior; be ideal for 2 but have the occasion +2 for short trips. Wonder what it would look like? Damn, I already know. I already own it - an RX-8. :D

 

I like the G35 coupe too. That was the car I was going to own before the RX-8 came out. I wanted a coupe styling, yet have sportier looks than the 330ci, which I was cross shopping. The G35c fit the bill. When the RX-8 came out, there was a car that had even sportier looks (exterior & interior), had a coupe styling vs. a 4-dr. sedan look and with easier access, had more interior people space than the G35c, was a better handler, and was less expensive. The only trade-off was slightly less performance (straight line) and a less proven reliability than the Infiniti. To me that was worth it.

Now if I am in the market for a sports sedan down the road, since I have my coupe, I would give the G35 sedan a serious look. I think if Infiniti put another 1-2 thousand into the interior, they would have an outstanding automobile that would match or exceed the BMW 3-series in every category, except snobbiness.

 

Tom,

I'm not quite sure how it would look (3-D) either. I've seen pictures, but I too would have to see it in person, before I would take that financial plunge.

 

So wait, let me get this straight. A mazda car that bears the label of "RX" is not in any way correlated to any "RX" cars of past? Even with the engine being a rotary in it of itself?

If your thinking of the 350Z as not worthy of being labeled a Z car, then by your definition the RX-8 should not have the same insignia of the RX-7. Then the 8 should be labeled in another form.

Correct me if im wrong as I dont know much of the RX history.

As far as design, cars of new will undoubtedly look different from their predecessors. But subtle design cues can be found. Concerning the 350Z, whether the design resembles past Z cars or not, the basic premise is still the same.

The 350Z brings back an affordable sports car just as the 240 did in its time, whether some view the design of the 350Z as not living up to its predecessors.

As far as the designer owning a TT, please point me to where that can be found. I would be interested in that reading.

And if the 350Z is inspired from the design of the TT as some of you view it, people can just as quickly regard the RX-8 as inspired by the Saturn by its doors.

 

I know what you are talking about. Isn't it too much to ask, to have a car that has great performance, yet be price affordable (20k-35k). The US cars that have the looks with the performance are priced 50K and up. I would think if the Japanese can put out cars like the Miata, RX-8, S2000, G35c & sedan, 350Z, IS300, etc, all for less than 40k, coupled with that Japanese reliability, then you would the US makers could do the same.

Sure, for less than 30k you get that 1/4 mile straight-a-way high HP & torque speedster, that has crappy handling, less than steller looks. I think it all goes back to that late 60's early 70's muscle car mentality. All that was important was straight-a-way speed. Hell, I owned a 69 Camaro 327, 72 Nova SS 350, 76 El Camino SS 350, and I fell into that mentality for the longest time. Until I drove, my cheap-***, low HP & low torque Fiat X-19, I didn't know what great handling was. I swore if I ever would get another sports car, then it would have to be a great handler. I'm glad the RX-8 came along, and I had the opportunity of owning it.

If price was a factor in US not being able to provide a great looking, great handling, great performance sports car (which I think is not totally true), then they need to solve that problem. I respect your opinion, and I have similar views. Not to offend any of you labor union supporters, but, IMO, the unions need to go with their high employee wages. I don't know whether the US car makers need to start paying lower assembly line wages, hiring imigrant, or taking their manufacturing south across the border, but something needs to be done. I think it's ludricous to have the union workers bitch about their wages and hours, yet expect to be paid for what I feel is substandard workmanship (as compared to Japanese & European). Especially when you have thousands upon thousands of workers unemployed & homeless, that would give anything to have a job to put food on the table and to afford a roof over their head.

Sorry, for my social and economic rant. Time to get off my soapbox.

 

I know you are just being sarcastic but ouch!..... Suicide door design is not something Mazda came up with. There are plenty of cars and concepts in the past that utilizes the suicide design.... the latest being the RX-8 and the Saturn before that. It's not really fair to describe the RX-8 as a Saturn Quadcoupe copy, but it's easy to see how many people would think that.

As far as all the criticism for the 350Z design goes - sure, whatever you say~ This is not a Z forum, it would be pointless to defend the 02-03 Japanese Car of the Year and Good Design of the Year winner here.

 

Nope, you didn't get it straight. I guess you have trouble with interpretation and comprehension. Correlation of RX is to rotary. It's not a replacement for the RX-7.

So what makes the Z, a Z, except for name only? Doesn't look like the 240, 260, 280 or even the 300. Explain to me please why Nissan choose to call this a Z, except for the fact they needed a 2 seater sports car, and decided to call it a Z, even though it doesn't look like any previous Z. Hey we needed a name for our 2-seater, and since the other Z's were 2-seaters, we'll call this a Z. Doesn't matter if it looks like a Audi TT, we'll call it a Z. Basic premise - a high performance 2-seater is all it is. But, I guess that's OK, if they want to call it a Z. Don't get me wrong. I'm not flaming the car. It's a great car with great performance.

As far as designer owning a TT, I can't answer that since I didn't say that. You're argueing that point with the wrong person.

Yes IMO, I believe the 350Z is inspired by the Audi TT design, but you're wrong about the Mazda RX-8 and Saturn. The concept designs for the RX-8 (RX-Evolv) had the suicide doors before the Saturn. If their was any inspiritation, it wasn't from Saturn (GM) which copied Mazda on this one. Get your facts straight.

 

So now your insulting me with...

when im just trying to get involved in a discussion. So touchy arent we. I hope this trend does not continue as I do not want a flame war.

As far as...

didnt I mention that in my previous post?

I did not say that the RX-8 is a complete replacement of the RX-7. But for the RX-8 to have the RX name and rotary engine, should'n there be a relation to RX cars of past?

My point in this that you feel that the 350Z should not resemble the Z insignia then the RX-8 should not also since its not intended to replace the RX-7.

When in fact the 350Z has as much worthiness of holding the Z name not for its design (though it can be argued for/against) but for what it has brought. That is my main point.

The 240z was not brought in as a design benchmark. But what it brought was affordable performance sports car to which the 350Z is now doing again. Thus making the 350 a Z car.

As far as to which came first between Mazda and Saturn for the doors, all I know is that Saturn was the first to come out with it in production form and would guess that the majority of people would also think that way.

All I am doing is providing a counter argument and prefer not to have this turn into an insult/flame war.

 

Oh yeah, my car was Automobile magazine car of the year many years ago, and it's a .....(drum roll)

Plymouth Neon.....


awards means jack

 

nice one.

other than that, please continue on with the pissing contest. this is rather amusing.

take care

santino

 

I need to clear this up before you ask again - the RX simply stands for Rotary Experiment. There were other versions besides the RX-7 that you know of RX-1 thru RX-6 all existed. Of these they produced coupes, sedans and even wagons that had pretty much only one thing in common - the rotary. So, the 8 being a new series, it only has to be related to its other brethren by its engine for it to be considered an RX car.

 

Sky,

Appreciate your input on the suicide door concept and history.

350Z owners and guests don't have to defend their car here. No one is saying that their car is a POS and that the design sucks. Some people like the design, some find it less desirable. Some think, including I, think the design may be more inspired by the Audi TT design than the previous Z lineage. What's wrong with that? I just think it would have been great to have a design lineage similiar to the Mustangs, 911's, Corvettes, etc. The fans and enthusiasts. They all have a similiar look throughout their history.

But if Nissan, chose to change the styling to a more dramatic fashion than some fans thought was necessary then so be it. I commend them on their COTY and design award. Even though I feel the G35c was more worthy of those two accolades. The 350Z is a great sports car. There are many of us that think it is worthy of exactly that - a great performance sports car.

 

Nothing I said was meant to insult you, if you took that wrong, then I'm sorry.

Bottom line, we have a difference of opinion on the design inspiration. You think it's fine that that designs changed from the older classic look to a more dramatic modern look. BTW, the new design does look meaner, in a muscle car sort of way. I think the design should have had a closer rememblence to the 2xxZ line.

Either way, the 350Z is a great sports car. No arguing that point.

So Saturn came out with the suicide door before the production RX-8. The main point, and its a shame people don't realize this, and frankly I could care less, is that the RX-8 concept had it before the Saturn, and production cars throughout history had it before Mazda and Saturn. I just wanted to clarify that Mazda's inspiration for the suicide doors did not come from Saturn. On the contrary, Saturn copied the design from others.

BTW, welcome to the board. And thanks for the debate.

 

Thanks 5Gen_Prelude. Which is what I was trying to convey to CarEnthusiast, but I'm not as articulate as you. IMO, as a car enthusiast, I think a car should have more design similiarity with it's past then just being an affordable performance sports car sharing the same badge.

 

Interesting how we parallel so much. My first brandy-new car purchase was a '73 Fiat 124 Sport Spider! Bought it only a few months before the gas crunch hit. :D I would have bought it anyway, but the gas crunch was rumored to start any day when was looking to buy, and that surely helped in my decision to go ahead & buy it right away. One of the smartest things I ever did. My best friend had an X-19 and I liked it too.

As for the latter part of the above quote, me too.

 

Now THAT'S a scary thought. My wife can confess that one of me is quite enough.


I missed the pleasure of driving that X-19. Talk about a go-kart on rails - unbelievable handling. Targa removable top, flip up lights, mid engine. Aaah! Definately was a chick magnet. Opened a lot of doors and other things, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, I bought it used and kept it for quite a few years, until I got married, and the maintenance costs started getting too excessive for my wallet. I was sorry I got rid of it (not as sorry as my '69 Camy), but it wasn't practical anymore as a family car. I would like to see a manufacturer release a car with those looks again. Put out more ponies, better reliability, and it would be very popular.

 

Zoomster....I thought I was the only one that owned one of those. Mine was well used also. Had it for a couple of years. That engine was nothing to write home about speed-wise, but boy did I ever love hearing it "sing" right behind me. Handling was unbelieveable (by '80s standards).

I traded it for an MGB-GT. Another great handler, but I jumped from the frying pan into the fire regarding the reliability of either of those cars.

350Z and the G35 are fine cars in their own spaces, but most of the folks here recognize the RX8 as it is...a fun sports car that gives up nothing to anything in its class.

As far as accolades, the RX8 also had quite a few..."International Engine of the Year" C&D sports car shootout winner (where it beat out the G35 and the Cobra), as well as many others. My guess would be that when Motor Trend does it's COTY, that the RX8 will be at the top of that list, as well as the C&D "!0 Best Cars" and Automobile's "Best Cars" issues.

 

A little off the original topic but I agree here. A fine example are the wages that phone company employees make in the NY area (and I'm not talking about NY City). I personally know Installers and Customer service Reps. (answer phones and questions) that make $30 and hour. If you don't find that ludicrous you should be ashamed. To go along with it they get gobs of over time and the union continually protects them even if they are shitty workers. And god forbid you are asked to do something out of the boundaries of your contract. Big mommy Union will protect you, don't worry. I almost forgot the installers are instructed to do no more than 4-5 jobs a day. If the cutomer isn't home it is still considered a ticket and the tech blows time in a park under a tree reading the paper. Ever wonder why you see so many Telephone trucks parked all over the place?
Can you imagine how cheap our phone bills would be if they were only paid comparable wages and expected to work 8 hours for 8 hours pay?!?

Ok off my soapbox.

See what you started Mark!!!

 

I'm finding I'm not the only one, besides you, that owned a X-19. I know what you mean about the power, but considering the weight of that vehicle, it was good enough on the fun meter. If only Fiat had Japanese reliability.

I do believe the RX-8 will be COTY. You heard it here from graphicguy and me.

BTW, are you the same graphicguy on the Edmund's forum? I'm the same RX-8 Zoomster.

 

Is your soapbox large enough for me and others on this forum? I agree with everything you said.