Charles Cope

Mazda should fix the flooding problem. Yup, care to bet how many engineers are working on it? Think this is some new phenomina created by the Renesis design?

I got my 8 last August and drove it regularly until December 18th, when I had to put it on blocks for the winter. Sorry, no salt for me! Before August, I drove a 1988 RX-7 from 46K to 108K miles over seven years. It was a GREAT car. But, it had a flooding problem. If I started it cold and moved it from the garage to the driveway and washed it.. it flooded. If I drove it a mile to the gas station, no problem, started without a problem. Sound familiar?

There were a number of ‘wives tales’ / sure cures suggested for the problem. Add an extra ground wire from the chassis to an open plug in the wiring harness. Remove the fuel injection fuse and crank for thirty seconds. Add a quarter cup of Automatic Transmission Fluid to the rotor chambers, close it up and crank with the pedal to the floor. It’s hard to believe, but this one worked, most of the time! When it started to sputter and catch, a huge cloud of white smoke was produced which continued for about five minutes. After that, back to normal.

When it was flooded, the engine would turn over really fast because it lost compression. The gas caused the apex seals to become ineffective. The story on the ATF was that it helped the seals to work in conjunction with the carbon film on the inside of the rotor chamber to restore compression.

Since this was a painful procedure to go through, I learned to leave the car running a few minutes if I was going to wash it. Any time I cold started the car, I remembered to pay attention.

Until Mazda (or Canzoomer ;-) finds a way to keep this quirk from happening, you’re going to have to pay attention when you cold start the car! If you can’t accept that this problem hasn’t been solved in the last twenty years, by the only company to successfully commercialize the Wankel engine, then buy a fricking piston engine car! If you’re a drag racer, buy a WRX or 350Z. The RX-8 is a road car!

Sorry, off subject. Please respond with more details on the RX-8 version of flooding. Do you notice the fast revving? Has anyone found a procedure to re-start easily? Anyone care to try the ATF solution??

I’m going to continue to pay attention when I start it cold!

cc

Senseny

Well after three plus years of rotary ownership I have finally done it, flooded an RX (I am praying its only flooded--anything else gets real scary and expensive quickly). After a while sitting (probably 15 days) I went to drive the FD last week and after the car started it sputtered and died as I was backing out of my driveway. I have tried the usual flooding procedures several times and I can't get the car running so tommorrow I am changing the bottom set of plugs to see if that helps. Just so you know, it cranks fine, turns over and starts but dies either immediately or within a few moments--the white exhaust smells of gas, not sweet like the fun you get with the coolant seal failure. Wish me luck on getting my 300 rwhp baby on the road again without major money.
Anyway, the question with the 8 is, I know old Rx's can flood when the sit awhile, battery dies or in a couple other situations. Do we have to worry about these reasons for flooding the 8 or is the only worry a cold start followed by a quick turnoff. Anyone have any ideas.

NAVILESRX8

iTrader: (1)

All right!!! Finally somebody said what I always wanted to say....I too have owned many FC's....yep same flooding problem....well not a problem as I haven't flooded my 8 at all. I just use my past rotary experience, and take the proper steps. It's not really that big a deal to me....one day, they'll all get it, or sell them to rotorheads.....who knows.

sferrett

I don't think anyone's ever insinuated that the FC's didn't flood sometimes when you shut them off cold, just like the rx8 does. That's why there's a short-trip procedure in the maunal.

RX8_GT

The problem with the RX-8 does not concern me directly - I've flooded once - short move problem - although I have had a couple of hesitant starts. My concern is the barrier to successful US marketing if the issue is not completely put to rest.

I'm hoping for a two seater Rx and a convertible in the near future - this will only happen if the RX-8 is a runaway success.

The American market expects a car that can be moved for 30 feet to 300 miles with no babying.

John

TheDosDog

I remember back years ago, early 80s FBs (12A) had flooding problems too. One popular remedy was to squirt a little Isopropyl alcohol into a vacuum port on the intake.

boothguy

Senseny: are you able to get an indication that the tip seals are making compression at some point when you follow the procedure, or are you only getting the "no compression like the plugs are out" at all times?

What worked for me when my FD was flooded for the first time ever in 90,000+ miles of use by one of my employees a coupla weeks ago was:

* Crank and floor the accelerator. Keep the pedal there - do not release.

* Crank in 5-8 second bursts until you hear your compression come back.

* Release the pedal and crank again. Mine fired immediately.

* Car should go to a high idle on its own. If it doesn't, be ready to help it, cause you won't be running on all four plugs. This means "forcing" the throttle until you can get the plugs cleared.

* It'll make a lot of smoke. Make sure you're either outside or have the garage door open.

This is the simple version of the procedure and should work for 90+% of the time. Pulling the plugs sould work for the next 8% of the occasions and the transmission-fluid-in-the-plug-holes methods for only the absolute worst cases.

Good luck!

boothguy

Only answered half the question.. on the 8, I don't think we have enough history in the community to know about the other situations, which I've personally never experienced. But both my FC and FD have sat for months with no startup or flooding problems, and I've also never had a low battery charge situation flood either one.

The general experience seems to be more closely related to a cold start with immediate shutdown. Anyone else?

RX-8 friend

Never flooded mine (knocking on wood), and I store mine for 6 months every year. I keep the battery in the basement, and charge every 2 weeks.

If it starts and then dies, it's not a flooding issue. It may -cause- flooding, but something else is wrong. I doubt it's engine mechanicals. Sounds like a fuel problem (bad pump - dirty filter - water in fuel) or spark problem (mouse nest in ignition - dirty plugs - bad wires).

Charles Cope

I agree and I hope I'm right that there are a bunch of engineers working on it! My intent was to let those unfamilliar with previous RX's know that the car is not a mousetrap. The problem sucks, but its just not that difficult to avoid!

RX8_GT

Not too difficult for rotorheads - but that said I just backed my SLK320 out of the garage 25 ft and have no concern that I will have any problem starting it later today when I will move it back.

This issue could IMHO kill the rotary-engined car in the US - just wait for the consumer agency / groups to get involved.

Does anyone know if Consumer Reports has rated the Rx-8? It sure won't be me talking to them - but someone will or has at this point. Their reaction will be over-kill.

Flooding in the RX-7 is old news - all the cars sold in the US are at least 9 years old - but a brand new state of the Wankel art sports car selling for 30K will be news.

Rotorhead since 1985

John

Shocka

piston or rotary its not good to cold start an engine move the car a little and turn it off. sure we do it alot , just deal.. i just find myself going for a lil drive more often. :-)

i also make sure the 8 is never blocking another car in the drive way. i dont valet. if im faced with the sitution of valet where i have no option. im tossing the valet a 5 and telling em to keep it in the front. (they just got $5 to do NOTHING but look at my car)

i usually let the car warm up for 5 mins anyway before moving so i guess i have less to worry about.. ok but here is my problem i am gonna install the side markers today how do i turn the wheel w/o starting the car!

FirstSpin

To answer the question from up the page about how Consumer Reports rates the 8. Based on their report of test track data, they give it (the 6 speed with Potenzas and not sure what other addons) the following:

Acceleration - Excellent (compared to what, they don't say but they do give it a 15.2 second quarter with top-end in the quarter at 92 mph.)
Dry Pavement Braking - Excellent
Transmission, Routine Handling, Emergency Handling - All Excellent
Fuel Economy- Whatever that circle with the bottom half colored in is, like one notch above Nasty (I'll use the term "Fair" for this symbol throughout the rest of this post)
Ride: Average (The circle with no shading in it)
Driving Posistion: Good
Noise: Average
Access: Average
Controls and Displays: Excellent
Fit and Finish: Good
Trunk: Fair (They didn't say with or without a spare)
Front Seat Comfort: Excellent
Rear Seat Comfort: Fair
City mileage 14 mpg / Hwy 22 / Avg 150 mile test trip mileage 20 (fairly close to what I've seen with respect to mileage on all counts)


In a head-to-head across-the-board comparison to other "sporty cars" they rated it 3rd overall, with the Ford Focus SVT coming in first and the Subaru Impreza WRX STi scoring only very slightly better. Fourth on their list was the EVO, followed by the Impreza WRX, Celica GT-S, VW Beetle Turbo S, Mini Cooper Base, Honda Civic Si, 350Z Touring, Acura RSX Type S, Crossfire, Tiburon GT (V6), with Eclipse GT (V6) coming in dead last.

I'm not saying I believe em or I agree with them. Someone up the page here just was musing about what they might be saying about the 8 and this is what I found on their site...

RX8_GT

FirstSpin:

Great info - and overall very fair - but doesn't address my concern - that's the rating from a test drive situation/group comparison - not the aftermarket assessment that they often do after a new car introduction

John

FirstSpin

If I'm reading it correctly, all they have to offer at this point is their test data. They indicate it's too new for owner-satisfaction and predicted-reliability data. Not sure if we're on the same page or not. No mention of flooding so far anyway that I could find.

RX8_GT

FirstSpin

We're definitely on the same 'page' . The 'proof will be in the pudding' when CR looks at owner satisfaction and product reliability.

The issues of flooding, cold weather starting, etc. will be in the followup assessments.

I remember many new cars that were rated quite high at first - but followup assessments were poor. For example the Plymouth Horizon / Dodge Omni was Car of the Year 1978 for Motor Trend - long term they were IMHO garbage (I should know as owner of two of them - bought together when money was tight and fuel costs high - what a mistake !!!)

John

PS Took nearly 20 years until 1996 for me to go back to Chrysler

RotorGeek

Why does'nt Mazda place some sort of timer that does not let the car shut down untill it has reached the proper temp. Like a turbo timer. Just an idea.

Sue Esponte

Oh yeah, people would love that...a car that kept running after you shut it off....very safe in a garage, too. It's not like carbon monoxide kills or anything.

-Eric

787B

MANY cars will flood if started, moved a few meters then turned off on cold engines. Rotarrys may, or may not be more prone to this, BUT it is NOT unique to Mazda Rxs. Fact.

nt5k

Well, this would only happen if the car decides that the engine is too cold.

Or you can turn off the car cold and have flooded car in your garage.. I don't see the garage issue either, if you park head first (which you should do anyway to keep exahsut fumes out of your house when you turn the car on). Just keep the garage door open till the car shuts off..

787B

if you think its flooded, the easiest way to restart is is to either;
use a set of jumper leads (works every time, takes a matter of 2-3 minutes)
OR, "bump" start using a tow. Again, works everytime on Rx or Pistons.

RX8_GT

7878

You are wrong - sorry. "MANY' is wishful thinking. I have a Honda 2003 CRV and 1994 Passport, a 1996 Chyrsler Town and Country, Mercedes 2001 SLK320 and 1994 E320 - along with my Mazdas in the yard now.

I can start all the piston engined cars - including the Miata - move them 20 feet and shut down in less than 2 minutes without concern - that is not true for my RXs.

John

grogiefrog

I use to always carry a can in my '80 and '84 RX-7's. It did the trick.

MEGAREDS

I've never heard of this problem before I bought my 8... over the years my family's had a Ford Falcon, Ford Gran Tourino (think Starsky & Hutch), Lots of Chrystlers, a Dodge Omni, Toyota Sienna Minivan, Cadillacs, and a Honda Civic. Also, the rotary engines won't clear themselves with the passage of time, like other flooded vehicles will do. I'm totally with John on this... I don't think Americans will put up with even the little inconvenience of remembering not to shut it down cold. This car needs to appeal to more than just "enthusiasts" to succeed. I'm hoping they get it figured out, but recognize the history and design problem...

Please note that I haven't seen too many people flooded after a stall. The problem seems at its worst when the short move procedure is not followed, and then the car is allowed to sit for a while. If you are very careful, there's no reason to have to deal with a flooded car.

Anyone with a digital camera want to do a DIY for starting a flooded vehicle? I was looking at the spark plugs today and the top ones seem almost accessable...

RX8_GT

Megareds:

First off - I love my RX-8 - first saw the RX-8 at the Detroit Motorshow in January 2002 - first sat in it during the 2003 show. Get it this December - an insane purchase given my 3 sports cars and a sedan - just for me. Rest of my cars are for family use.

Wife plans on burying me in RX-8 - and according to her - pointing not skyward but straight down.

Second - I'm already hoping for a convertible RX - either RX-8 or new RX-7/9 in a couple of years. Love to see a rotary Miata as an separate model.

Third - the RX-8 has to be a run away success - it's the world's only production rotary car. It must cost Mazda a mint to support it. Mazda has walked away from the US market once in 1995 - almost a decade no rotary engined car in the US !!!

Fourth - the American public runs on pure Id. There are many sports cars to choose from - not subject to any special running procedures. Not unique as in the RX-8 IMHO - but they are the competition.

Fifth - Mazda USA should address flooding more openly - not put the information out as a comment or two by the sales guy as he hands you the keys. The Stay Move Protocol should be front and center - not in a Tips brochure AND the de-flooding procedure should be tied to it directly. Heck - the Short Move Procedure is due to engine wear according to the Tips brochure - not flood prevention !!!

Finally - 99% of all flooding is due to short cold moves - not stalling - although the position of reverse tends to encourage you to put in 6th at times.

I seems to me that an aggresive program by Mazda to address this issue would stop it in it's tracks. Waiting for Consumer Reports to get on the case - or the federal safety people - would be unwise for Mazda. Just ask Ford and Firestone how that works out.

John