197rwhp Pull!
 

judge ito put his Rx8 on the dyno with approx 300 miles on it. first pull was 186rwhp. he decided to put in VP 103 race gas the dyno had. car made the 197rwhp pull clean. i don't have the dyno charts to scan yet but i SHOULD have them tomorrow i hope. he ran 15.2 at the track with the DSC on. he forgot to turn it off..... i will also hopefully get a run down the strip with it tomorrow at englishtown. the judge and i have a bet that i can beat his best time in his own car with one run :)

Ok... so what exactly is the point, just about every car on the market will have more HP with race gas...


Ike

It's not so much a point , its just info

Kind of like saying if you mix red and blue paint you will get purple, it might be info but it's certainly not news :p

Have you tried it? how does it taste?

Give the guy a break, c'mon. He's excited about the number. Although, its suspicious that a car with 300 miles is putting down 197rwhp...so, that 103 gas might be responsible.

Why NOT be so blase about the racing fuel and look at the fact that the car did 186HP with 300 miles on it. He's trying to give people some interesting news.

It might seem like stating the obvious to you Ike, but remember, you did this several times while at the same time bitching about the 8. True, you also had to deal with people flinging crap back at you, but I dont think this should be a trend.

The first sip is a killer but after that it goes down pretty smoothly, and for $5 a gallon it's about the cheapest buzz you can get.


Ike

lol

First sip is a killer. I like that.

I guess I just don't see the signifigance of the news, the first dyno once again seems to support that the car in no way is making 238HP at the crank, and the second claim is just common sense. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to figure out the point, or what's interesting or newsworthy about the post.

Anyhow, let us know how the run goes tomorrow Vosco.


Ike

Is it me or this guy is really annoying?
I don't own either 8 nor wrx, but I am just interested in cars in general. It seems like this guy is butting in almost every thread and making some annoying comments. Can somone get rid of this guy?

Why? Isn't high-octane race gas just more resistant to detonation? Unless you're cranking in more timing, then increasing the octane level beyond the point where the knock sensor isn't interfering should not add more power. I doubt the RX-8 ECU is always running the timing on the knock sensor, but has a base map laid out for 91 octane.

Again, if race gas has more energy content, then sure it could make more power - otherwise, it shouldn't make a difference on a production street engine.

Regards,
Gordon

Looks to me like it's one of teh highest dyno results on car before it's breakin. I would imagine that would matter to those that ARE interested in HP.

Whatever. Since HP isnt an issue to me anyways.

Didn't you call someone a fag and a homo in your first post?


Back to the topic, I though the car had dynoed around 185 a couple times already with some others being in the mid to high 170s.

Gordo, I know of many other cars out there that will dyno higher with race gas when stock. I may have overstated and it may not be an attribute of all cars, but it's certainly not uncommon. It seems most cars that are recommended to use premium fuel will benefit most from the use of higher octane race gas.

P.S. ask the judge how OJ is doin :p

Re: 197rwhp Pull!
 

Vosko-
It's nice to see some people with some experience like you and Judge Ito are playing with the 8. Please keep us updated on the 1/4mi runs. I don't think the people who have run their cars down the track so far have many passes under their belts. I'm curious to see what you guys run. Can you take a couple passes granny shifting AND speed shifting?

No, I didn't call him that. I asked him if he is.

Re: 197rwhp Pull!
 

nice!! im having my car dynoed this sat.

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9608

hopefully i get good results

Re: 197rwhp Pull!
 

With the DSC (and thus also the TCS) on, it's impossible to get wheelspin. Without wheelspin, the rotary will just bog down. Yet he still managed a 15.2? What's wrong with this picture?

No, it isn't just you. He is really annoying.

That about sums up most of his contributions to these boards. If there is a positive or negative thread about the RX-8, you can bet Ike posts in it... with something negative to say.


It would seem not. The trick is, despite the fact that 98% of what Ike posts are clearly trollish, negative things, every once in a while he will state in a post that he actually likes the RX-8. This appears to confuse moderators, who let him go about his business. There are ants under my apartment and we can't get rid of those either... such is life.


Getting back to rational discussion of the topic, this seems like pretty good news. I wouldn't call it a *major* breakthrough for any of us, but it is a step in the right direction. Hopefully we'll see similar results soon from cars with lower octane and more miles so perhaps even Ike can't find something negative to say... but then what am I thinking!?!?

Sorry for pointing out the obvious, I opened this post mainly because I thought someone got 197 on a dyno with regular old gas. I thought it would be good news and was pleased to hear it. However it didn't seem to be any different from the other dynos I have seen other than having high HP with race gas, which is to be expected. Exactly how is this a step in the right direction Aussie? All it did is show yet again the car probably doesn't actually have 238hp.

Ike

Re: Re: 197rwhp Pull!
 

i guess 20 years of drag racing skill means nothing apparently

Re: Re: Re: 197rwhp Pull!
 

I'm sorry, but I don't believe even Don 'Big Daddy' Garlits could launch an RX-8 that hard with the DSC/TCS engaged. Everybody agrees that you need a high-rev clutch dump to obtain maximum acceleration from the RX-8, but with the TCS enabled you ain't gonna get wheelspin no matter how good a driver you are - the engine will just bog.

On the facts as presented, I have to raise the BS flag.

Getting a higher pull with race gas should NOT be expected. That so many people here just "accepted" this as normal surprises the living crap out of me. If the pull with race gas yielded significantly higher numbers there is something seriously wrong with the stock tuning running with 91 octane fuel.

The higher the octane, the less energy the fuel contains and the more it resists detonation. Higher octane fuel lets you run more boost on a turbo setup, or it lets you run a higher compression ratio on an na setup -- ie: the power gains are not from the octane of fuel being used, but rather harnessing the reaction more efficiently and/or cramming more air and fuel into the engine.

Using a higher octane fuel shouldn't give you more power on a stock car unless the ecu was trying to prevent detonation (either by reducing timing, dumping more fuel into the chamber, or probably several other things I can't think of). If the engine was tuned properly to work with 91+ gas, using race gas would put down slightly lower numbers than without.

If the ecu is taking actions to prevent detonation running 91 octane fuel, it would easily explain why so many people are getting piss poor gas mileage, the soot covered tailpipes, and the substandard numbers on the dyno.

My 2c.

Re: Re: Re: Re: 197rwhp Pull!
 

and he didnt get maximum acceleration, duh. the man got a 15.2 with dsc and tsc on. thats 0.7 seconds slower then what the rx8 should be running with dsc and tsc off. i dont see any controversie here. calm down

However you seem to forget that an ECU will quickly learn to benefit from higher octane. I agree it won't take full advantage of the high octane rating but it will still improve horsepower, there's plenty of dynos to backup small gains from octane boosters that only add 4-7 points, and also some out there that show other cars benefiting and gaining horsepower from using race gas or even higher octane gas while still running with a stock ECU. Do we know what octane people were running with all the dynos that have been posted thus far? Also, do your manuals have recommended octane or does it just say premium fuel? The RX-8 wouldn't be the first car to not take to 91 octane gas very well. From what I've heard with a few extra octane the new Accord will have another 10 or so hp, and there are a few others examples I can think of off the top of my head.

Ike

Wrong IKE. And I even went quite far with my wrx before I got rid of the pig http://wrx.swankmonkey.com
But the vw's were cool:
http://www.swankmonkey.com
http://gti.swankmonkey.com

And many other cars that I just didn't have a digi cam or web skills.



Most stock maps will not acquire additional timing, even with higher octane gas. In fact, with stock cars, you are usually running max advance. IKE, do you have proof otherwise for the RX8?



1. He dyno'd originally with a hardly broken in engine.

2. His race gas dyno was later in the game with more miles.

3. Nobody can prove a thing unless you data log timing and the knock sensor values.

3. You can't connect to this car with standard over the counter obdii tools.

What did we learn? Break the engine in for a while, it needs to go through that process. Also once we figure out which data logger/ obdii tool can do the 60%CAN Bus and 40%ISO breed this car has to read the ecu values, we really don't know what's going on inside the stock programming.

If this was really a crank 200 hp car, it would not pull like it does! I'm very impressed, and I'm sure my engine is nowhere near broken in.

The guy should dyno again using 93 octane and just settle this.

Wow, lots of negative vibes in the air! Lets all take a step back, and a deep breath.

Ike has been working on his trollish tendancies, and I have high hopes he will continue his rehabilitation. He does seem to be knowledgeable, and while he does seem to be biased against the 8, I do think it is based on his preception of the HP issue, and the fact that he really wants one, but needs to have 250 hp for bragging rights with his other "hot hatch" friends. That is understanable, if you put yourself in the mindset of our younger, lost generation. Remember, canzoomer has been drivin to mental collapse by the same issue!!!

Ike, redeem yourself by giving us some wine selections, I want to make dinner for my wife tonight, Roasted chicken tortallini in a garlic,white wine sauce, normaly I would get a bottle of luna de luna, what do you suggest? And A nice, full bodied red would be nice to, a little on the sweet side.

Yes, a certain poster did question sexual preferance in his first post, but he did not use profanity, and he has been much better since, everyone deserves a secound chance.

Is this the same judge ito of OJ fame? If it is , how cool is it that he has a 8? Remeber what J.C. said

"If the hp is bad, we all be sad"

I just want to see the chart of the two pulls to verify the claim. It seems to me most everything in this thread is wide speculation.

And Judge Ito in Englishtown, NJ, are we to assume he no longer resides in California? Maybe this is common knowledge, but I don't know. Just a possible hole I saw in the initial post, and I know some others have called "bs" on the whole thread.

I'm still interested to see.

this is the mechanic/god judge ito of jr's rotary performance in new jersey. he is puerto rican. "ito" in spanish means little. that is his nickname as soon as the OJ thing came around he got the nickname judge ito. he can rule and sentence anything rotary :D

anyway. the car is going back to the track. you can call bs if you want but you would also say BS on my FD which dyno'd 459rwhp @ 15psi on 93 octane pump gas built by the same man. i'm not here to prove a point. just trying to give out some info that most people would like to know. basically how to make your cars perform like they are SUPPOSED TO. funny how that would work :)

Its simple provide the proof. Just saying I got such and such around here without doesn't mean shit anymore after the fiasco with Mazda.

I am confused: is he a judge or not? By the way, "anchovie" in italian means "rotten salty little fish"

Maybe the original fuel was oxygenated stuff and then race gas or non-oxygenated fuels will produce about 4% more power.

patience its not even my car

Maybe you should have had paitence before posting without proof.

Proof is what most internet boards will demand!!! It's just the way it is on car boards.

Thanks for posting the info up though!!!

He explained he is NOT a judge

In the defense of Judge Ito (no he isn't really a judge but he seems to be judged), he hangs on the RX7club forum alot. Many people know who he is and can verify that he knows his sh!t. While I in no way would ever dyno a car with only 300 miles on it, the 186 number is the best we've seen so far. The trend so far has been that the cars are getting more power with mileage (up to a point I'm sure). If Ito's car starts at 186 then I wonder what it will be later, maybe 205? That would be in line with Mazda's rating of 238. Instead of questioning why Ito got 186, why don't people instead focus on why they haven't. Has there been a problem with the first few batches that no one admits to that has been quietly fixed? The questions are focused at the wrong person.

If the traction control system is on then of course he won't be as fast as he could be. This applies on the Z28's too. They turn it off and they can much accelerate faster. While the TCS does not allow the wheels to spin this doesn't mean that the car can't accelerate faster. Fastest acceleration is acually with the drive wheels slipping ever so slightly (very slightly). TCS not only keeps the wheels from spinning but it also leaves a slight amount of room for error meaning that it could go a little farther before they stay broken loose.

should i go home and cry to mommy because he hasn't given me his timeslips or dyno sheets to post????

get a life

i will post them as soon as i can. honestly i don't care what you think. you are obviously not here to try and help anyone. i didn't say he dyno'd 220 rwhp. anyway. your proof is coming SOON but not because of your incessant banter :)

this was directed at a few people. you know who :D

The guy should dyno again using 93 octane and just settle this.

dyno time isn't cheap. if you guys are willing to ante up sure he will

Maybe you should go home to mommy, and shut the hell up till you have proof.

good call
start the donations

Would you calm down?!

poison123, vosko, and mikeb, give it a rest.

---jps

I'm on vosko's side
everytime this guy posts something everyone tears him up
I was being sacrastic about the donations for dyno

hmm i think that should be directed at not me and not mikeb and hmm who else. you have a bunch of people who if they did this on my forum would be gone and not allowed back. trolls are not necessary and can be dispatched easily :)

Please post
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by vosko
[B] i don't have the dyno charts to scan yet but i SHOULD have them tomorrow i hope.

Please post the charts. Thanks.

Ito burnout.


:D

Whats your forum Vosko so I can "troll it up" there. And I'm not trolling here, I'm mearly asking for proof, I think we're all getting tired of making statements and not backing them up.

You can only advance the ECU timing so much, and the stock ECU should already be causing ignition (note: this is not the same point the spark is initiated) right at whatever "top dead center" is for a rotary. If you advance the timing any further, you get knock because the mixture ignites before tdc, reducing performance. Back the timing off and you don't take full advantage of the explosion.

If the stock ECU on the 8 is tuned correctly, and something isn't going horribly wrong (knock detected), fuel over 91 octane won't do jack because the timing should already be advanced as far as it'll get. If the ECU detects knock, it will back the timing off and (probably) dump more fuel into the chamber, reducing performance and gas mileage.

An ECU isn't this massively sophisticated piece of technology that figures out optimal a/f mixtures and the correct timing. An ECU basically looks at a set of pre-generated tables cooked up by the engineers which tells the ECU what to do givin a set of input parameters. Those values are modified based on what the sensors tell it -- while cruising, the O2 sensors cause small adjustments to the mix (O2 readings are ignored while at WOT). If the knock sensor gets hit a regular basis, the ECU will back off timing and fuel settings in a manner that is designed reduce the temp of the combustion chamber (thus, preventing knock).

In other words, the fuel maps represent optimum settings for the engine as calculated by the engineers, and the ECU backs off from the optimum settings when it sees something wrong (to save the engine).

I've never seen a dyno on a stock engine that showed a gain using higher octane fuel. I have seen gains on cars running higher than stock boost (but were otherwise stock). I have also seen a lot of ricers who don't know anything about cars claim that their civic goes faster when they stick the stuff in their tank.